Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

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Is Rey a Mary Sue?

Emberlene's Daughter, The Jedi Generalist
[member="Tathra Khaeus"] ehh lets be fair anakin had two movie. ten year old anakin wasn't really able to get anything bad he won the podrace and destroyed the droid ship which luke also did in the first movie introducing him.
 
- Wonder Woman LITERAL DAUGHTER OF A GOD and has stupidly powerful powers that require no justification besides a tautology of SHE'S WONDER WOMAN

- Rey, imbued the raw talent by a METAPHYSICAL MYSTICAL MAGIC WOBBLY THING WITH NO REGARD FOR LINEAGE, HERITAGE, OR MATERIAL STANDING IN THE REAL WORLD, beats a unbalanced and under trained and manipulated force-boy and all of nerdom FREAKS THE HELL OUT.

I'll break this down even further:

Rey is supremely talented and gifted in the Force - her weakness is she has no sense of identity to root herself and then build off of it.

She is rudderless, she has power without meaning. THAT IS HER WEAKNESS. She has no idea who to be and who to seek to learn what to be.

Luke and Anakin, what gave them strength, what made them seem powerful and earned in their power is they knew EXACTLY what they wanted to be or become - Luke "a jedi like my father", Anakin "A powerful Jedi that can save people and free them".

Rey HAS NONE OF THIS. So she appears like a Mary Sue when she really is BOG STANDARD CHAOTIC NEUTRAL WITH AN IDENTITY CRISIS.

This is HEAVILY telegraphed in the movies, HEAVILY. THEY BEAT YOU OVER THE HEAD WITH THIS.

But the fandom is too busy whining about power levels and justification - ABOUT A MOVIE WITH SPACE WIZARDS!!
 
Valiens Nantaris said:
I think there is a severe reluctance to show heroines getting hurt or defeated in action movies - certainly the PG13 mass media sort.
Movies should be more like Atomic Blonde. Charlize Theron's character takes a lot of damage and there are plenty of scenes where she's visibly messed up. And she kicks a ton of arse. But then Charlize Theron is awesome.

As for Rey, in my view she's a poorly written character. Leaving aside the fact that she never struggles in anything...she has no personality, no arc, no goals. Why does she suddenly want to redeem Kylo even though he murdered Han, who was sort of mentoring and acting like a father figure type, and she kicked his arse just a couple days ago? Never mind him capturing her and trying to invade her mind. By the time they fought, she was rightly disgusted by him. So why the change of heart? Why does she get involved with the Resistance? Why does she do any of the things she does?

Rey is simply an inoffensive, bland cardboard cut-out that plays it way too safe.

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]
 
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So, before I go into this, let me just define Mary Sue first. The definition of a Mary Sue is as follows- "(originally in fan fiction) a type of female character who is depicted as unrealistically lacking in flaws or weaknesses." (https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/mary_sue). There is also another definition, there are multiple. This one says, "A Mary Sue is a character who is so perfect that he or she warps the world around them to display their perfection. It seems as though nothing in this universe except Mary Sue is even real, and is instead a plot device to make Mary Sue seem flawless and loved."(https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mary%20Sue). By these definitions, Rey is indeed, a Mary Sue, but the meaning of Mary Sue goes further than just the definition, though I still do believe that Rey is needlessly overpowered without proper reasoning available to the greater mass.

As others here have stated, and we all know, Rey defeated Kylo for various reasons, part of it plot. I can see both sides of the arguments and believe that it makes sense and doesn't make sense that she beat him. Rey was indeed fresh and hadn't fought yet, so she was still full of energy. Kylo on the other hand, he had just killed his father, taken a blast from a wookie bowcaster and fought on, while also running through the forest and having another fight. Therein my problem is the fact that Finn managed to hold his own against Kylo, but that's another argument entirely. The problem for many is that Rey beat Kylo so easily and was able to use the Force just like that. It's plausible if you say that Kylo was extremely exhausted from his prior fights and trauma not so long ago, but still stretching it. However, I'll ignore that for now and say, sure, it's possible that Rey was strong enough in the Force to find her zen and be able to use it after someone told her she could. However implausible it may be, it's still a possibility that shouldn't be ignored completely.

Moving on though to another thing that makes people think Rey is a Mary Sue, her in general combat abilities without any training. Firstly, in the books and other sources, because of the mind link between Rey and Kylo, she is able to learn how to use the Force and fight with a lightsaber. I don't believe this is all that possible, or that she could get so good in such a short span, but let's say this did happen. The big problem here is that most people don't read the books, at least for Disney, but only watch the movies. In the movies, no explanation is given as to why she's so good, she just is. Therein is the problem, she is so good and has no training, and no reason given within the movies, thus, a Mary Sue. This is a problem, as Rey is given no context for this, and Rey goes on to do things that took years for other characters to develop.

Next we come to general Force powers. In the movies, Rey had just learned that she is a Force user. Shortly thereafter she is able to mind control a guard, that is hyper indoctrinated to the FO cause, and should by no means be a 'weak minded' individual as the indoctrination would be a good barrier to overcome. However, Rey, with no experience using the Force and not having even been told, on screen at least, that Jedi can mind control people, does so after only the 2nd try on this trooper. This is very clearly being a Mary Sue in my opinion. At this time, Rey didn't have a mind link with Kylo, she had only just learned about her powers of the Force, and has zero training. Her use of the Force at this stage makes no sense, and her actually getting it to work even less. Then we come to her using the Force to pull the lightsaber to herself. First, let me point out that Luke did the same thing in the wampa cave, though he did have some small amount of training from Ben. So, this is implausible as Rey, again, has no real training in the Force, but can still do this. Sure, so she found her center in the Force as someone said, one problem there. This is assumed, in the movies we aren't told or even implied to that she found her center, no. She can simply do that and also fight off Kylo then, but I already addressed that. Anyways, the first instance is the most obvious point that Rey is a Mary Sue, according to the definitions.

Next I'll go into other characters, for example, Ezra, Luke, and Anakin, as they had been mentioned at some point. I'll just compare them quickly to Rey. So! Ezra, Luke, and Anakin are all powerful individuals in their own rights, some might call them Mary Sues, but I disagree completely on that point. All three characters develop over their time from a young and naïve individual into a powerful human that has earned their skill. Anakin goes from a kid on Tatooine to a beloved and very respected Jedi General over the course of the entire war. He's a padawan, yes his taking down the control ship is Mary Sueism, but the character himself does develop and only has that moment, compared to Rey who is it the entire time. Anakin becomes a padawan, learns his trade over the Clone Wars under Obi-wan, has his fair share of losses and victories, loses some battles with main villains and wins some. But the key is, he lost his first battles because he wasn't anywhere close to being prepared. He lost his hand to Dooku because he wasn't ready to fight him. Rey just fought Kylo and won, no training. Anakin had some training, went against a more powerful opponent, and lost. Then he went and trained like crazy, become 10x better, and over several years became good enough to win. His character developed from nothing into something. Rey is already 'something', there is nothing to truly develop as she already has everything.

If that's not enough, let's go into Luke. Similar/same story as Anakin. Starts off as a young boy from Tatooine who has no training, taken under the wing of Obi-wan, trains a bit and then goes through some losses and some wins. Ends up training, loses to Vader, trains some more over years and eventually good enough to win. Essentially the same as Anakin, though he came before Anakin technically. Finally, Ezra. Again, naive young kid from some backworld planet, not Taooine this time, lol. Gets hooked in with a group, trains under them, learns he has powers by accident in a fit of emotion and is then tought to use his new found powers. This takes years to develop his powers, and even then he goes through highs and lows, often coming close to falling to the Dark Side because he wants that power to win, to beat the enemies of the Rebellion. Again, he develops over many, many years and is seen training for long hours under Kanan to become better. He is trained by Maul as well, the holocrons, and needs to earn his powers. Rey just has them.

Seeing a trend there with those 3 characters? Yeah, so am I. So, to conclude, I do believe that Rey is a Mary Sue character. The reasons are simple, she has powers at her fingertips immediately, powers that took others years to train to get. She is also good with a lightsaber and other combat, despite never having picked one up to fight with before her fight with Kylo. Finally, her not losing anything so far and having no purpose at all. Sure, she could be going through an identity crisis, but if she has no reason to be anywhere, then her entire place in the movies is not that great, since she has no impact. In the OT, the characters fought to get rid of the tyranny of the Empire. Leia because of Alderaan and being raised that way, Luke because of his aunt and uncle, Obi-wan teaching him to fight, and having friends in the Rebellion. Han and Chewie fought because of money and finally agreeing with the ideals. In the new trilogy, Poe fights because it's his job and he supports the Resistance. Finn, idk why he fights, but again, different topic. But why does Rey fight? She wanted to return to Jakku, she has no reason to do all these things, but she's dragged from one to the next. Sure, once she was involved, there was no escape, but her entire reason of becoming involved isn't that good(I can say more to this if anyone wants me to, but I think it's self explanatory). This is my own opinion on the entire subject, because I do believe Rey is a Mary Sue.

TL;DR
I agree that Rey is a Mary Sue, reasons included in the paragraphs above. Thanks for reading :)
 
A man can change his stars
[member="Darth Voyance"], I will have to agree with you on this one. Its stated many times over and over through out both movies, that she just "Has no where to go." She is just a powerful force user, gets all of the abilities, is a fast learner, has the A-typical 13 year old "Master" Character. The Power of the force has nothing to do why she is a Mary Sue at all. I don't consider her one because like Voyance pointed out, SHE HAS NO PURPOSE!

She has nothing to really fight for.

-No known family heritage.
-No Jedi Order to Join.
-Barely has friends to protect
-Rebellion is already there and she isn't there to join them. She has been shown to be out for herself.
-Han Solo offered her a job and she would take it because it gave her purpose.
-Not really revenge even though both Han, and Luke died.
-Her antagonist is a Emo Edgy Knight of Ren-Sith wannabe. Who want's to be a "legend" like his Grandfather.

She has nothing to go on. She has no purpose other than to just be there and show up to be the powerhouse.
 
Can we stop using the argument "Its made for kids" when trying to weasel out of why the sequel trilogy is badly written? Plenty of kids shows, especially recently, are wonderfully written and well-made. Shows like Gumball, Avatar, Gravity Falls and even Samurai Jack were "made for kids" but adults routinely enjoy.

If Avatar ended with all of the main heroes suddenly dying from smallpox and the bad guy being revealed to be Scooby-Doo, people would be pissed. Saying "Well its a kids show" wouldn't magically excuse that. Star Wars may have had kids in mind when it was created, but its audience has obviously included adults as well.

As for the question posed, it would definitely appear so. I do like the idea of Rey, but bad writing has crippled her unfortunately.
 

Jor Kvall

Ain't found a way to kill me yet
[member="Tathra Khaeus"]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you. Rey really is the most textbook example of a Sue we've seen in a long time and her unearned powers and abilities are much more egregious than any other character in the saga up to this point, which is indeed annoying, and her defenders here will ignore this as they pretend there's no such thing as context.

My larger point is, her Sue qualities would be much more forgivable if Disney bothered to make her a character with actual goals and desires.

That ultimately is the biggest reason why Rey fails.
 
[member="Darth Voyance"]

Your argument would work if any of that was presented as a weakness.

And yes, people 'whine' about power levels because in every universe regardless of if there are Space Wizards, because when a world is built well - it has an internal consistency, and a level of skill and training required to be good with a particular skill. That internal logic is what means there can be overpowered people, or powerful Sith or Jedi. That internal consistency is part of why Vader and the Emperor are beloved.

A universes rules, are part of what makes it work. The cop out 'its a universe with space wizards' is a lazy and ineffective one when the universe tells you, that most space wizards require years of training. Anakin was literally born by the force, and Luke is his son. They are kind of an exception to the rule, but even then both required training.

Rey, breaks those internal rules of consistency by just having almost metagame knowledge of how to loop hole through the rules. She's a Chaotic Neutral character being played by a shitty player at the D&D table.
 

Jsc

Disney's Princess
AdAstra said:
Can we stop using the argument "Its made for kids" when trying to weasel out of why the sequel trilogy is badly written?
Nah.

Disney reps have mentioned how the sequels were planned out, who the writers are, and the time frames involved in writing, rewriting, building, shooting, and reshooting them. And, I myself understand the complications of screen work, human resources, editing, and movie production. And, the importance of getting lucky. Etc. Long story short? No matter what oversimplified argument you hear. The truth is, It's complicated.

Moving forward, you'll hear a lot of strange arguments for why the sequels ended up the way they did. What worked, what didn't, and the inevitable "It's made for kids" used again too. Such is money, media, and business. My advice would be to look past such media-centric smokescreens and just enjoy, (or just meh at,) at the finished product. It's what you can control. It's what we as customers can appreciate or throw away.

Or, ya know. Muse about on the internet. Lol. Whatever floats your boat. :D :p
 

Jor Kvall

Ain't found a way to kill me yet
Tathra Khaeus said:
because when a world is built well - it has an internal consistency
^ This is all that needs to be said really.

Also, Rey is most definitely not chaotic neutral.

A chaotic neutral character is out for themselves. Rey has no clear motivations. She doesn't know what she wants.
 
She beat Luke Skywalker 1v1 with no training. How is this even a question?

Better ask: "How to we fix Kathleen Kennedy's disaster? Can it be fixed? When is Vilaz Munin going to become Mandalor?"

These are the important questions.
 
Both movies depict her as a rather stereotypical mary sue and still, THAT is in fact not my issue with her. The movies could've been better in general and that's what makes the character of Rey stand out even more among the litany of failures and openly demonizing agendas of certain groups within the media.

1. I actually did not dislike TFA, though it wasn't as great or good as I would've hoped, the progression was still solid story wise. Yes there's the whole 'how the heck can she do that without training' stuff, but in TFA for me it was the complete lack of character in what was supposed to be a protagonist which frustrated me.

2. in TLJ, she's undergone some modicum of training, but did things neither luke nor anakin were capable of, which came off even more jarringly in comparison to anakin, the so-called chosen one with massive force abilities and potential...but apparently even at his hayday would not be able to hold a candle to her. However yet again, it's the whole agenda backing the movie, the simply even worse writing and ideology RJ put in this movie which simply flunked the entirity. Yet again Rey had no character, no emotional or spiritual (non force here) progression whatsoever and still happens to be better than kylo ren who arguably in this movie had found his own center and should've been at the top of his game (pointing out the throne room fight against the PG for this).

3. even if she is a mary sue and has as much facial expressions as Kirsten steward in Twilight or Bilie eilish in any of her music vids, imho that all isn't even close to why I have just decided to not go through the trouble of watching any of the movies anymore. It's the constant hate and demonization thrown towards men, who arguebly still are about at the very least 60% of the fanbase and that's lowballing the number here. Men don't like a female protag, men can't accept powerful women in movies, men are the toxic fans that stop creativity. All the excuses for the fan outrage has been directed at men with no factual support whatsoever.

As said before, men DO accept female protagonists and I think most men actually enjoy seeing more strong women in movies, but not like this. If you are to create a female protag with the premise of having them do the same job, go through the same troubles as a male protag would...they also need to suffer the consequences of being a well written protag. Ripley, Sarah Connor, heck in truth even Padme amidala are strong female characters and acting like it's something new and exciting is also a joke: Alien is 40y old people, female protags aren't new. Alas these days with the whole triggerstuff, the feels and all the other micro-aggression BS. There's this hypocritical mindset acting as a split dividing not just fanbases of multiple franchises and platforms, but also in general moviemaking. A woman is not allowed to get hurt in any way, shape or form in a movie no matter her role or people (read feminists and men and women dumb enough to be swayed by their ridiculous banter) will cause an outrage, but a man...well, they can even simply die in a movie in the most horrible way and you won't hear a thing (well except if he is colored and they happen to be murdered by a white man...equal outrage.)

All the rage or the discussion on wether or not rey is a mary sue is pointless in an environment so shaped by oversensitivity, warped racial and genderbias and in most cases the idiom 'form over function' where movies just need to look good rather than have a solid story, a progression that viewers can experience alongside their favorite characters. So, though I apologise for the harshness in my language and it's political nature, I will not apologize to those who would now feel offended, as you'd simply prove my point that way. The moment we've let identity politics decide how movies should look and feel is the moment the film industry has lost all of its magic, all of its creativity and all of its credibility to me and I believe many people around the world.
 
Internal consistency

> EU made Luke a space pirate with magic after EP V
> Early EU made the Force powered by a mystic crystal
> Anakin literal space super jesus and apparently that' a decent justification for some hand wavium by your criterion that you've hoisted onto Rey

>But Rey broke the entire consistency....
>REEEEEEEEEEE the canon
>REEEEEEEEEEEEE

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