Is Rey a Mary Sue?

[Dat1CanadianGuy]

Ok. I know the new movie is coming out, and I honestly will not go to see it. Because I saw the leaks, and I read all of that, and I am disgusted with it at this point. So I'm just gonna ask everyone here. Do you think Rey is a Mary Sue. Full-heartedly.

Personally, my answer is yes she is. I am practically disgusted some people think otherwise, but I understand people are entitled to opinions. She defeats a fully-trained Sith who has trained his entire life, and taken down an entire Jedi Order. Basically become the "strongest", and I say that VERY LOOSELY, Jedi of the sequels WHILE NOT BEING GIVEN A SINGLE MINUTE OF PROPER TRAINING, and just somehow defeat an entire evil empire singlehandedly. And no the Resistance didn't do anything in my opinion. Because she literally just WALKED IN TO THE FLAGSHIP whilst the other resistance members did nothing. Unlike Luke entering the Death Star while his friends also helped by capitalizing on this distraction and attacking the core.

 

[Sasha Fox]

You must understand in Rey's duel with Kylo several factors were in play against him. The first being Kylo was injured from where Chewie shot him with his bowcaster after Han's demise. The second factor against him is that Rey was not an amateur in any sense of the word, growing up on Jakku she learned to defend herself as shown in the Force Awakens. The third factor is that Kylo was not fighting to kill as evident by their standstill on the edge of the cliff, instead of using his force abilities or his physical strength to push her off the cliff instead he offered to teach her in the ways of the force. The final reason is that when a Jedi is in the heat of battle they often become only a tool to the force allowing it to guide there blade, Kylo could not do this as he was too far in his head to do this with all the events that just happened from his killing of his father to the bowcaster shot to the stomach and then his duel with Finn taking their toll whereas Rey found her place in the force when she summoned the lightsaber to her hand. So all that being said I do not believe Rey is a Mary sue

 

[Placeholder 0128]

Yep.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Sasha Fox"]

Unimpressive staff skills [which is what was shown, nothing impressive] aren't even a little bit transferable to sword play. That's just not how martial arts works considering melee weapons.

But also, even wounded; Kylo should've still had the upper-and and won pretty handily. Unless, he's literally a crap fighter - which is what the move tells us.

Also Rey is 100% a Mary Sue, because the movies dumbs down people around her to make her look good. Kylo, Finn, Luke, the Praetorian Guard, the rock lifting. All of if, is unearned - that is a Mary Sue. She's good at flying, escaping starkiller bases, mind tricking brainwashed radical stormtroopers.

 

[Faegard]

Maybe my standards are low, but I don't consider Rey to be a Mary Sue

Unduly overpowered? Sure. I feel like there was meant to be a journey there that was either rushed or rewritten entirely and we're left with a max-level character we didn't see grind for it.

But, a Mary Sue? No. She isn't unanimously loved by everyone she meets. She's not "the most beautiful" and doesn't have those typical Mary Sue flaws of being "too humble". There are real Mary Sues and Gary Stus in fiction, but I don't necessarily believe that just being unduly overpowered warrants the title.

 

[Matsu Ike]

Yes she is, hell the mary sue wrote an article debunking it and listing pretty much all evidence that she is. In the movies at least which most casual fans will watch, in the books the different authors who have written her have tried to make her imperfect or explain what she can do but she has no weaknesses even "too" smart, too humble to start.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Dat1CanadianGuy"] - Nah.

StarWars is for kids. (Cliche, I know.) But honestly the whole Force/Jedi/Magic thing never made any sense anyway. It's stupid like LOTR elves and Harry Potter's wands are stupid. Fantasy rules breaking fantasy rules. So if J.J.Abrams wants to show some beautiful desert girl *magically* become a Jedi and fight the Dark Lord, *because reasons*... I'm okay with it.

Just like I'm okay with blasters shooting *lasers*, planets being only one biome, lightsabers defying physics, Hyperspace, turbolasers parabolic firing arc, zero real science anywhere, etc.

Look. End of the day. You pick one battle, you pick them all. So I say: Love it. Hate it. Whatever. Buy the t-shirt and move on. Disney loves the money either way.

 

[Kaleleon]

Kylo Ren, is somehow able to take a shot from a bowcaster. The same weapon that could seen any other person, Literally flying into the air from the explosion itself. Takes it to the gut, and then is compromised emotionally due to just killing his father, then has to fight against not one, but two combatants. Rey was "Fresh" to the fight and had no wounds.

That one fight alone to be considered for Rey being a Mary Sue? No. Now if you mentioned how she could just suddenly use the force to convince a stormtrooper to do what she wanted with no prior training? Come on people. There are other people in canon who were children and could do the same thing. With little to no practice at all. I mean, we are talking about people who are ungodly levels of powerful able to control Wormholes, create storms on a sunny day with little to no effort, Teleport through space, bring down a star destroyer from the sky, and even have Exar Kun who was able to swing his saber around so fast during the rain, all the area around him was "dry."

Star wars has always been about over the top, really powerful people. While there are a few who clearly seem like "standard" or even "Underpowered" they are the exception to the rule. Even then, they are well known because they did something "powerful." or were known for something.

This argument/discussion doesn't make an sense when I know for a fact that a number of people in this thread have created stuff that was "powerful" or "ridiculous" in nature because they used some obscure canon lore. OR just make something powerful because they want to be the biggest bad guy/Greatest Good guy, of them all.

I am practically disgusted some people think otherwise

Not sure why you would say that in a discussion. This to me just seems like you don't care what other people think and this is just a thread to garner attention. Congrats.

Because she literally just WALKED IN TO THE FLAGSHIP

Yes, and others have done so in the past for writing as well as in Canon. Yet I do not see you calling them out about it? Considering it was one person/small group of people who got onto the ship, doesn't mean its impossible. Mind you, 300 Spartans held off a 10,000+ man army that came at them using the bodies of their fallen to create a wall to defend their country and kindred people of Greece. Or how the trick of a "Gift" of a giant horse ended a war in one night that took years before that.

Arguing semantics on a trope that has been overplayed is redundant.

 

[Darth Carnifex]

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Valrayne"] has some good points about the exact definition here.

It's true she lacks some of the more egregious traits of a typical Mary Sue, especially around personality and reactions to her.

However, I don't think there is much doubt that she's incredibly overpowered from where the character could reasonably expected to be.

Leaving aside 'reality' if we compare her to the two other protagonists in Star Wars trilogies, they both started out very limited, and then had years between each movie, fighting and training considerably. However, even in their second movie both those protagonists suffered a humbling defeat.

In contrast Rey has not failed at anything or been anything less than totally successful in everything she has done. By this stage both Luke and Anakin had lost an arm and been severely beaten by a superior fighter. In contrast Rey defeated Kylo - a wounded and emotionally shattered version, but still - and a half dozen elite guards with nary a scratch.

I think there is a severe reluctance to show heroines getting hurt or defeated in action movies - certainly the PG13 mass media sort. I don't think this is part of some great conspiracy, but is just a way to sidestep any of the inevitable 'controversy' which might arise if they do. I can already imagine the protests if Rey had lost a hand fighting Kylo about a man beating up a woman and glorifying it. I think they've decided to just side step that, with the added downside of making her more than a bit of a Mary Sue.

 

[Mellifluous Magenta]

Big Unpopular Opinion Time: Virtually all Star Wars protagonists are Mary Sues. As [member="Tathra Khaeus"] pointed out earlier, the stories dumb down the characters around them to make the protagonist look stronger/smarter/more powerful. However, the only reason Rey is being called a Mary Sue where other protagonists aren't is because she is a woman. Rey is just as stupidly powerful as young Anakin and Ezra, but we make excuses for those characters for some reason.

 

[Matsu Ike]

[member="Eternal Cyan"]

Ezra and Anakin were powerful but they also trained for their skills and failed along the way. It has little to do with her being a woman aside from that under Kennedy the force is female ad pretty much done of them fail or can be seen as weak. It is one of the reasons why the mandalorian is being well received, while he overcomes the odds and situations he has gotten beat and failed but keeps getting back up. Which is what Anakin, Luke, Ezra and even Ahsoka did.

 

[Darth Voyance]

 

[Jsc]

is because she is a woman.

My body is ready

 

[Grrwunhoooll Agaburry]

However, the only reason Rey is being called a Mary Sue where other protagonists aren't is because she is a woman.

Prove it. Cuz so far its only subjective.

 

[Mellifluous Magenta]

Prove it. Cuz so far its only subjective.

Do you want me to pull out a peer-reviewed scientific paper or something for you to debunk? As far as I'm concerned this entire discussion is subjective. If you're gonna demand that I do something like that, you ought to hold your own arguments/points to that same exacting standard.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

However, the only reason Rey is being called a Mary Sue where other protagonists aren't is because she is a woman.

​This opinion is the height of stupidity.

​Aliens, Wonder Woman, Terminator 2. I'm sorry but, these movies have incredibly strong female leads and the massive majority of these movies fanbases are MALE. The only reason we don't like Rey, is because she's a poodoo character with an unearned sense of empowerment. The only reason her gender has anything to do with it is because Disney clearly pushes an agenda and other people want to blame sexism for people thinking something they adore is crap.

[member="Valiens Nantaris"] echoing what Valiens said, Luke and Anakin both got their asses handed to him and were shown as out of their depth throughout most of their three respective films, coming into their own within the third film. Its the heroes journey.

 

[Jor Kvall]

You're asking the question, which means the answer is obviously yes -- and no. I'll get to that in a moment.

Boy, lots can be said about ol' Rey. Sure, she has every superficial trait of a Mary Sue -- overpowered, immediately liked and respected by everyone who isn't evil or dumb. But arguments over the degree to which she triggers these alarms is largely missing the point. Lots of characters are overpowered or well-liked. Her most damning trait that definitively places her firmly into Mary Suedom is her fundamental lack of drive and goals as a character.

The peak example of this came in The Last Jedi, although it was present in heavy doses in Force Awakens too. Having only seen TLJ once, I'm paraphrasing here, but Luke finally asks her something to the effect of "So, Rey. What the hell are you actually doing here?" To which Rey basically replies "...I dunno."

I think this is where the dislike of Rey really stems from. It's not that she can use the Force with no training or beat Kylo Ren or know more about Han Solo's own ship than he does. It's that she is fundamentally just boring.

A character with no clear discernible goals who basically gets dragged along by the plot is not a serviceable vehicle for telling a compelling story. This is what most clearly separates her from other characters like Luke and Anakin. Luke wanted to leave Tatooine and become a war hero. If Rey had her way she would have remained on Jakku indefinitely.

Her most offensive flaw is that she is a completely passive character. She has no personal stake in the events transpiring around her, instead merely being dragged through the plot of each movie kicking and screaming in an exercise of utmost tedium. This is why most people find so-called "Gary Stus" like Luke tolerable and even likable, because they at least have a coherent character trajectory to go along with their immense power, making for a compelling underdog story that sees the viewer rooting for the protagonist to take their rightful place at the top. By contrast we have Rey who lacks this sort of action-based forward motion and instead keeps the charade of disinterest and feigned weakness going, and the whole thing just becomes tiresome after a while.

I used to be firmly in the "Ma-Rey Sue" camp, but these days the more I think about it, I think it can be argued that Rey is not really a character per se. Because she lacks even the most basic qualities of one and depends entirely on other characters and events around her to move her story arc forward.

Conclusion? Disney managed to derp their way into creating the Mary Sue singularity. A being with godlike powers and yet completely lacking all agency, simultaneously everything and nothing all at once. Truly an amazing feat.

​

Marvel at its beauty, its simplicity.​

​

 

[Grrwunhoooll Agaburry]

If you're gonna demand that I do something like that, you ought to hold your own arguments/points to that same exacting standard.

I never stated any. I might be inclined to agree or disagree with you. If i do say my own points i'll keep that in mind.

Id like to hear about your viewpoint though.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Jor Kvall"]

I'd never thought about it and you're right. But its not just ​that, its also that Luke nor Anakin's show of power was at the result of the degradation of liked or previously established characters. Take Anakin for example, we already knew Yoda was a super powerful Jedi Master but we never saw them in a competitive manner.

Anakin was shown to have prowess in his own right, so was Luke. When Luke beat Vader, it felt earned. Another example of this is the Halo Franchise. There are two examples of new protagonists being introduced, one being the Arbiter and the other being Agent Locke.

The Arbiter is introduced as Master Chiefs enemy, but we never see them fight or do anything 'better' or 'superior' to the other as warriors. Instead, we come to appreciate both and their combative feats in different ways and for different reasons. Its done so well in fact, that when the Arbiter beats the main antagonist of Halo 2, the Brute Tartarus; it feels earned as Chief faces off against HIS antagonist, the Gravemind and leaves behind Cortana to 'Finish this Fight'.

Where as, in Halo 5; Locke is a direct antagonist to Chief whilst also being our Protagonist. Chief like Luke Skywalker has already earned the love and respect of the fans, and has been part of most of the players childhoods and has accomplished the great feat of saving the Galaxy at least once.

Then, the new kid on the block as seen in H5 is on par with Chief and in their fight, it attempts to show Locke's prowess by degrading the Master Chief. People hated it. The same way, people hate Rey for degrading the other Saber Wielding heroes of Star Wars.

Its why people hate TLJ, cause a lot of its narrative amounts to little more than degradation for Skywalker to make Rey look like a hot shot.

So, there's more to it than just her lack of agency. But they all definitely all plays into each other.