Staff Invasion Judgements & Second Chances

[Jsc]

Secret, vague judgements made by consistantly outstanding people of character is fine. The alternative is just more posturing, tilt, witch hunts, and a waste of everybody's time and energy.

And Invasion Second Chances are silly. Don't review your people like that Tef. Trust them and move on.

 

[Ashin Cardé Varanin]

If second chances very rarely overturn initial judgments, that speaks to the long-term credibility and reliability of the judging process. To me that puts second chances squarely in high work/low benefit territory.

 

[Dracken Pryce]

throw it out. A++

We'll all be less petty for it.

 

[Junko Ike]

I only recall one instance where a second chance really overturned the results but admittedly... at the time you had one side very much making it seem the other who won in second chance had done so by bribes, threats and other questionable things with no real proof. So I can't say if they were speaking truthfully but afterwards ooc Drama became a large factor in what could determine an invasion as opposed to just objectives and pvp.

 

[Tefka]

Given that only I or Valiens have the authority to approve Second Chances, and my pockets are pretty light, I'll assume that Val is the only one who's taken any bribes. Though I don't believe he's had any second chances overturn Invasions.

I've always been open to bribes, people are just to intimidated, scared, or worse - they know it's all one big make believe game and aren't emotionally invested enough.

Or they're poor.

 

[Darth Metus]

Tefka How much $$$ for Chaos?

 

[Tefka]

You don’t want this heat

 

[Adhira Chandra]

Tefka

I have no problem telling people that the GA is going through one right now. It was accepted and the invasion is being reviewed again. I will admit the criteria for when a second chance is accepted is as cryptic and seemingly nonsensical as many other things on Chaos. That being said, I really don't have a problem with them, not even when being party to one.

I do think, based on feedback I've heard from others, that factions have frequently used them as ways to drum up salt, delay the inevitable, and gum up the works. But, an MFO's job is to do the right thing for their faction and I would use a second chance if I genuinely felt a ruling was unfair.

With all this in mind, the invasion review process is already exhaustive. It takes many days, is overseen by an admin, and based on clearly defined criteria. Given that a second chance has never changed the outcome of an invasion, the point they would seem to serve is pretty non-existent. Eliminate second chances, leave it to the staff judging invasions to do their jobs.

 

[Kurayami Bloodborn]

Get rid of them if they have so little actual impact. It isn't necessary and simply adds more onto the plate of those Judges saddled with the task after already going through it once.

 

[Darth Prazutis]

90% of Second Chances that are baseless typically are denied before 24 hours are up. Your not pushing the deadlines much. It’s had a place in chaos for this long, and it has had an impact in invasions before. 3/4 of invasions go over without a hitch that don’t need a second chance, but it’s not for the 3/4, it’s for the 1/4 that do. It’s not that big a delay in the process either.

 

[Kyyrk]

I agree with the general consensus, it sounds to me like second chances are a waste of time and should be put down. I would also add that, to all of you saying that stuff might have been missed in the invasion as a reason for second chancing: each faction submits a summary of what they did well, for each category. If a detail gets missed that was important enough to win or lose an invasion, that one's on the person writing the summary for failing to include it...

 

[Adhira Chandra]

I would also add that, to all of you saying that stuff might have been missed in the invasion as a reason for second chancing: each faction submits a summary of what they did well, for each category. If a detail gets missed that was important enough to win or lose an invasion, that one's on the person writing the summary for failing to include it...

Precisely.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

Even though I'm on LOA for another day I'll put some things out here.

I've dealt with about 2 dozen or so Second Chance requests. I've overturned 2 I can remember, and in both cases they were technicalities. One based on initial posts (wasn't picked up until later that a faction had not done the necessary opening posts) and one was based on stampeding (was only brought up after the judgement).

I've almost always gone with my judges. Why? Because they've been reading every post, discussing it, putting together their thoughts and deciding an outcome. That's their job and if I can't trust their judgement there then they shouldn't be RPJs.

The whole concept of a Second Chance isn't in the rules, and sort of just started to check for irregularities. Now it's more often than not I get a request because a faction disagrees with story or tension.
If the Second Chance was officially put into the rules it would not be because you don't like the outcome. You might win, you might lose, but you have to accept the process unless there is a glaringly large mistake.

Either way, it's something Tef and I will consider at a later date.

 

[Ashin Cardé Varanin]

If the Second Chance was officially put into the rules it would not be because you don't like the outcome. You might win, you might lose, but you have to accept the process unless there is a glaringly large mistake.

This makes good sense to me. In judicial appeals processes that I've worked on for work stuff, plenty of those processes have specific grounds on which an appeal can/can't be filed. E.g. (just like in the examples you're citing) new information came to light about hard lines/criteria being met or not met. That's hugely different than asking for a whole new subjective re-judgment. So maybe there's still a place for second chances - if it only has to do with new info about those basic criteria being met (post counts, stampeding, etc.). It's a reduced role for second chances compared to what exists now, could focus narrowly on the few cases of actual...injustices, for lack of a less incendiary word. Just thinking out loud here.

 

[WelshGuy]

So, I have no real process in how the Second Judgement works in Invasions, I was FO in one and we won it. (Yes, not so humble brag, sorry but just a reason why I am not confident in how asking for a Second Chance works.) There should be evidence based appeal for Second Chances, so a faction should provide evidence or fulfil certain requirements for Second Chances.

Like cases that Valiens mentioned where extra evidence was provided after the first result. Something that allows people a chance to provide evidence that they may have forgotten, but not a process where every faction that loses can call for a Second Chance.

I don't think it is necessarily fair that we remove it entirely since a faction's staff or FO might miss something when writing the summary that could change the result, but a stricter approach to limit the number of Second Chances you guys get as well seems important.

 

[Ijaat Mereel]

Been in a few. Never seen one done for legitimate reasons. Even a landslide victory (from spectating viewpoint and participant viewpoint) you know it's going to be second chanced. No matter what. Just Old Yeller it and be done with it.

 

[Beltran Rarr]

I tend to be of the, if it ain't broke don't fix it camp. Occasionally things get missed, so there's no reason to axe the idea completely, even if it only very rarely leads to an overturn of the results. That being said, I did like the idea of enforcing a penalty (a light one, nothing earth-shattering) against factions who request second chances and no valid reason can be found for why. At the very least, it may make those who opt for second chances every time they lose an invasion think twice about it.

Anywho, nothing really new here. Just my two cents.

 

[Adhira Chandra]

I tend to be of the, if it ain't broke don't fix it camp. Occasionally things get missed, so there's no reason to axe the idea completely, even if it only very rarely leads to an overturn of the results. That being said, I did like the idea of enforcing a penalty (a light one, nothing earth-shattering) against factions who request second chances and no valid reason can be found for why. At the very least, it may make those who opt for second chances every time they lose an invasion think twice about it.

Anywho, nothing really new here. Just my two cents.

I agree here too. It is called a frivolous lawsuit in the courts. Lawyers get hefty sanctions for suing when they know they have no grounds to sue.

If someone second chances, or, if it gets added as an official part of the rules there needs to be a clearly defined criteria or process. The parameters of a second chance need to be defined. A MF should have to justify their reason for making one and their opposing MF should have a chance to rebut. But again, that is called an invasion summary.

Chaos is not a courtroom and people need to stop treating it like one. Kill second chance. Let staff do the jobs we and admins trust them to do.

 

[Onrai]

Inquiry: if the first judging of an invasion relies almost solely on the summaries provided by both factions' staff, why not incorporate the RPJs/admins going over the invasion themselves in addition to such into the judging process? It seems like the second chance essentially exists as a rationale for a faction who thinks their opponent did not summarize things or left something out to get he staff to actually look the thread over.

 

[Tulan Kor]

Whoever thinks that TSE and their corny friends won Dantooine is a smoothbrain