Staff Invasion Judgements & Second Chances

[Tefka]

A couple went down this week, and we've had a load of them happen in the past that were controversial - how do you feel about the process?

In lieu of a possible chaotic feedback thread, please remember:

1) Please remember not to oust any particular RPJ or bias. We're all human, we're all faulty, but these guys operate on behalf of Staff - at my invitation.
2) Don't make it personal. If you have to, make it personal with me.
3) Salt's allowed but try to keep it reigned in.


For Second Chances - both Invasion Judgements this week were Second Chance'd.

Valiens and I, the two who decide the future of Second Chances, have varying opinions on the issue. On one hand, it's a time honored tradition. On the other, we're having to decline 90% of Second Chance requests because 99% of Invasions are being Second Chance'd.

It's almost like nobody likes losing.

Weird.

 

[Darth Metus]

Tefka

Has there ever been an Invasion judgment that's been overturned by Second Chance?

Not asking for specifics ofc - just if it's ever happened in board history.

 

[Tefka]

Tefka

Has there ever been an Invasion judgment that's been overturned by Second Chance?

Not asking for specifics ofc - just if it's ever happened in board history.

I can't recall any off the top of my head, but I know there's been a few that were really drawn out due to assigning new teams to judge the Invasion.

The first problem Val and I agree on is, Second Chances don't even exist in the rules. It's just a time honored tradition enforced by yours truly, thus it holds validity.

 

[Darth Metus]

Well, that basically settles my opinion on the matter -

It's a tradition. A formality. One with a 0.01% chance of seeing a very public division among the site staff at the least (Admin A said you Lost, Admin B said "oops, we f$%$ed up, you won").

It's one that you've allowed to exist - and I think you should take it behind the barn and put two in its skull dude.

We're all going to scream bias into the abyss anyways, no matter how it turns out.

 

[Okkeus Dainlei]

I just had one quick question on how Draws are decided for the outcomes in the judgement.

With Draws becoming the outcome of a category, is it a legitimate 50/50, each faction put the same amount of work into it? Thus making it an actual draw.

Or, will one faction come out as a say 52/48 and it still be called a draw with how close the result was? One faction maybe put out an ounce extra, but it was close enough for a draw outcome?

Now, I'm not getting into hard numbers here, but I was just curious.

Tefka

 

[Takui]

I'm fine with it because you guys have the authority to decline at the end of the day. There are checks and balances in place.

Though, I think that some of the inherent biases should be checked at the door before staffers are assigned. Of course people are gonna say there's no conflict of interest. That's not an insult to any one person's integrity. Some people don't realize their biases.

I feel like if someone has a specific problem with a staff member they should be allowed to discreetly request that person not be allowed to interact with the judgment. That way there's less overall salt and claims of bias.

 

[Tefka]

Now, I'm not getting into hard numbers here

Tefka

And thank god for that, because these Invasion Judgements are one of the few places that - by function - I'm in the dark on. Not even I am privy to every Invasion Judgement, how the decisions were made, etc. Purposefully so.

The team is chosen. The guidance is given. The decision is made. 3 people, every time. 1 Admin, 2 Judges. Admin's just there to make sure things go smoothly, or break ties if they need to be broken.

I couldn't give you numbers if you wanted.

But I have publicly - and will publicly again say - I am not happy with how many draws/ties are being judged by every iteration of RPJ teams we've had. I have expressed this to the current RPJs, the previous RPJs, etc.

But AGAIN BY DESIGN, on the tier of authority here in the community, Invasion Judgement rooms have even higher authority than myself or Valiens. If they rule a draw, they rule a draw, and I will not question the judgement specifically.

 

[Tefka]

I'm fine with it because you guys have the authority to decline at the end of the day. There are checks and balances in place.

Though, I think that some of the inherent biases should be checked at the door before staffers are assigned. Of course people are gonna say there's no conflict of interest. That's not an insult to any one person's integrity. Some people don't realize their biases.

I feel like if someone has a specific problem with a staff member they should be allowed to discreetly request that person not be allowed to interact with the judgment. That way there's less overall salt and claims of bias.

Problems like this can already be made by Major Faction Owners to Administrators.

Preferably the one overseeing the Judgement, so they can make the call, but any Admin can be contacted. Nothing really passes between Admins without the rest of us being alerted in some fashion, at least not on that level.

 

[Takui]

Duly noted, thanks Tef.

 

[Okkeus Dainlei]

Thank you Tefka for helping clear that up for me.

 

[Tefka]

There are checks and balances in place.

In regard to Second Chances... there's really not any tangible checks and balances, for clarity to the community. Whether you're on the recieving end of one or asking for one, the biggest threat to you is the Head Admin or myself accepting a Second Chance request - and nothing stops us from deciding that other than ourselves.

The only check and balance on Second Chances is community outrage, which again aligns with Darth Metus 's claim that it's a deeply controversial subject. However, Second Chances are itself a check and balance on perceived bad judgements by the community, so...

Honestly, I think most of these problems can be explained by viewing ourselves as a community of mostly friends and sociable people trying to apply sports rules to an imaginary game, thus everyone's just trying to make everyone happy.

If I remember the saying correctly, that doesn't end well.

 

[Rusty]

In many sports, coaches have the option to challenge a call made by the referee. To keep them from challenging every call that doesn’t go their way, they suffer a penalty if the challenged call is upheld. I’m no one’s idea of an expert on this matter, but maybe there’s something to it?

Let’s say you second chance an invasion, the admin look at it, and deem that there’s sufficient reason to look over the judgment. Even if the decision is ultimately upheld, no one’s time is really wasted. If there’s a good reason to further review, then taking the extra time works in everyone’s favor, except for maybe the poor souls who have to do the work.

On the other hand, if there’s a clear winner from the word go and the request for review is deemed frivolous, it might come to pass that a penalty is assigned. Perhaps in the following month, that faction loses out on one of their dominion chances, or something similar. Not a major handicap, but one that will discourage asking for a second chance just because they don’t like the fact that they lost.

 

[Grrwunhoooll Agaburry]

Get rid of 2nd chances.

 

[Tefka]

In many sports, coaches have the option to challenge a call made by the referee. To keep them from challenging every call that doesn’t go their way, they suffer a penalty if the challenged call is upheld. I’m no one’s idea of an expert on this matter, but maybe there’s something to it?

Let’s say you second chance an invasion, the admin look at it, and deem that there’s sufficient reason to look over the judgment. Even if the decision is ultimately upheld, no one’s time is really wasted. If there’s a good reason to further review, then taking the extra time works in everyone’s favor, except for maybe the poor souls who have to do the work.

On the other hand, if there’s a clear winner from the word go and the request for review is deemed frivolous, it might come to pass that a penalty is assigned. Perhaps in the following month, that faction loses out on one of their dominion chances, or something similar. Not a major handicap, but one that will discourage asking for a second chance just because they don’t like the fact that they lost.

Not often you get viable suggestions worth reading on the first page of a feedback thread, I salute you.

 

[Rusty]

Not often you get viable suggestions worth reading on the first page of a feedback thread, I salute you.

I've been gone for long enough, my backlog of terrible ideas has built up so much a half decent one escaped the logjam.

 

[Darth Empyrean]

Second chances serve the purpose of bringing to light perceived missed information, insuring impartiality in judging, and generally that everyone can accept that the Invasion Board did a thorough job in judging an invasion. In a vacumn, second chances serve this purpose well - and while there are a variety of reasons people may not have faith in staff, having multiple people judging these together should reassure everyone that there wasn't a grand conspiracy to steal an invasion out from under someone.

So why don't people accept second chances without crying to the high heavens?

On a very general level, I think invasions suffer from not being very analytical. It certainly won't be the first time someone has mentioned this, nor the last, but invasions are... vague in judgement criteria. Story, Tension, Participation, and Drama - with almost no real clear indication as to what constitutes a good story, if bad writers are a hinderence to factions, or if Drama is even a category anyone even looks at. Not to say the invasion system doesn't have advantages, but its something to note.

Without clear guidelines, people insert their own standards - and of course, people tend to believe their faction and their story was better than the others. Why else would they be writing with their faction?

On a more specific level, their is a serious issue rising in the community that almost everyone is aware of. The current Invasion Arc going around the galaxy is fun IC, but the OOC becomes more taxing by the day. We have people trying to coax out insults to staff in DM's just to send them to said staff members, people instigating other writers to get very specific screenshots to help invasions, OOC alliances built to screw over other factions and groups, and a tidal wave of elitism as one group of writers knocks the other for being 'boring' and the other knocks them for being 'toxic'.

They have come to such clear cut clique lines, that the narrative of being an underdog somehow applies to everyone and no one - where bias only matters when its against you while you brag about the staff in your faction's pocket. Where bias is so engrained against you and your group, that they might not even know they're biased against you - but you're still going to try and prove it because one screenshot 3 months ago they said your group was mean.

We're corrupting the idea of what is fun, why we write fictional characters on the internet, and how deep our made up illuminati fantasies go. There comes a point where everyone has to take a step back and just ask themselves what they're doing thinking theres a group of people on the internet out to get you because you write a fictional character they don't like. Accept staff judgement without going straight to 'spooky' bias, and second chance if you have tangible proof something was wrong or missed.

Second chances should be clean and cut. State your case, let the admins double check to make sure nothing was amiss, and get over it. It should last less than a day for 98% of them.

Theres my rant. I'll wait patiently for someone to quote me with something clever like 'bold coming from you'.

 

[Tefka]

Darth Empyrean

Thought there's much more to unpack in your rant, I'll give you two takes -

1) Drama Victory Conditions, while seemingly unecessary, are probably one of the best decisions I've ever made for this forum.

2) If Second Chances should be clean and cut, and done 99% of the time, why are they their own individual process and not just... done from the beginning? I have an Admin in every judgement room. These are the 5 people I trust most in this community, who have proven time and time again their capability. Why do I need multiple Admins verifying Invasions? For me, one is enough - I don't need all houses of congress validating or cross-referencing Invasions.

 

[Darth Empyrean]

Tefka

1. The drama category is a good thing, and I don't mean to say its uneccesary - only that I've never actually seen it be anything but a Draw despite hearing some background horror stories about what one writer did to another over an invasion post they didn't like. I agree it should stay, but I'm wary on just how often its actually given weight to - though can acknowledge that its existence in general is a good deterrent for most.

2. When I said 'admins' I meant you and valiens, as you said were the two judges in second chances. Only reason I can imagine second chances aren't just done from the beginning is you would need your initial feedback for the invasion before you can bring something else up.

Say you give your rationale, judges come back with 'I liked 1 and 2', and your response is 'Um, what about 3, that was a big deal' - then it gets sent back for that quick cover. Was 3 considered in the initial judgement, was it skipped over, or was there some other extraneous details that only just came up.

Whether or not you simply make that a part of invasion judgements by itself, a second round of to double check these things for stuff missed is a good thing in itself - be it for the reassurance to the community, or simply to make sure consistency is upheld.

 

[Bernard of Arca]

Second chances serve the purpose of bringing to light perceived missed information, insuring impartiality in judging, and generally that everyone can accept that the Invasion Board did a thorough job in judging an invasion. In a vacumn, second chances serve this purpose well - and while there are a variety of reasons people may not have faith in staff, having multiple people judging these together should reassure everyone that there wasn't a grand conspiracy to steal an invasion out from under someone.

So why don't people accept second chances without crying to the high heavens?

On a very general level, I think invasions suffer from not being very analytical. It certainly won't be the first time someone has mentioned this, nor the last, but invasions are... vague in judgement criteria. Story, Tension, Participation, and Drama - with almost no real clear indication as to what constitutes a good story, if bad writers are a hinderence to factions, or if Drama is even a category anyone even looks at. Not to say the invasion system doesn't have advantages, but its something to note.

Without clear guidelines, people insert their own standards - and of course, people tend to believe their faction and their story was better than the others. Why else would they be writing with their faction?

On a more specific level, their is a serious issue rising in the community that almost everyone is aware of. The current Invasion Arc going around the galaxy is fun IC, but the OOC becomes more taxing by the day. We have people trying to coax out insults to staff in DM's just to send them to said staff members, people instigating other writers to get very specific screenshots to help invasions, OOC alliances built to screw over other factions and groups, and a tidal wave of elitism as one group of writers knocks the other for being 'boring' and the other knocks them for being 'toxic'.

They have come to such clear cut clique lines, that the narrative of being an underdog somehow applies to everyone and no one - where bias only matters when its against you while you brag about the staff in your faction's pocket. Where bias is so engrained against you and your group, that they might not even know they're biased against you - but you're still going to try and prove it because one screenshot 3 months ago they said your group was mean.

We're corrupting the idea of what is fun, why we write fictional characters on the internet, and how deep our made up illuminati fantasies go. There comes a point where everyone has to take a step back and just ask themselves what they're doing thinking theres a group of people on the internet out to get you because you write a fictional character they don't like. Accept staff judgement without going straight to 'spooky' bias, and second chance if you have tangible proof something was wrong or missed.

Second chances should be clean and cut. State your case, let the admins double check to make sure nothing was amiss, and get over it. It should last less than a day for 98% of them.

Theres my rant. I'll wait patiently for someone to quote me with something clever like 'bold coming from you'.

Bold coming from you. I feel this on a spiritual level tho. +1 +1 +1 +1 +1

 

[Onrai]

I don’t know the current crop of RPJs well enough to determine whether or not any of that matters. I do know though that headhunting isn’t conducive and I would argue that certain groups have, from a complete third party perspective, less of a reason to bemoan invasion results than others. The pendulum has historically shifted between various factions insofar as invasions have gone across the 7-8 years of time the forum has been active, and the “dominant” faction has varied - the Sith, the CIS(on two different occasions), the Omega Protectorate, the Republic, and the Galactic Alliance were all the “dominant” factions at varying points. Pendulum shifts, factions thrive or sputter. Taking it personal is irrational.