Feedback Partial Mapwipe Poll

[Argis Volmir]

Let's go on and throw this out there for thought. Since my time of joining the board the only truly big event that's taken place here is Endgame with the last Galactic Alliance and I think an attempt at a Sith run one that I can't remember how it ended.

This could be a great opportunity for another little event to crop up and make things more interesting for the board as a whole. Not to mention writing a factions story of them reacting to this loss of territory to what have you. Is that not more important than hording hexes on a map? I get work was put in to Dom those hexes but I feel like story should be more important, plus a less cluttered map could give room to other factions to crop up.

 

[Darth Metus]

Adhira Chandra

From experience (I ran the green blob on the OG map pre and post-Map Wipe 1.0), a map wipe doesn't fix the "problem" of big factions being too large to fail.

For one, that problem doesn't exist - there's no faction too large to fail. The board is full of notable, Galaxy-spanning groups that bit the dust. One notable example being when the One Sith went major right beside the Galactic Republic and immediately invaded. Thus began the longest invasion W streak in Chaos history. But it started with a zero who became a hero beating the site's big dawg in the face. Repeatedly.

TLDR, no such thing as a faction too big to fail. Any faction can eat it, whether by coordinated smaller factions saying kark you in particular or by one new kid on the block going after the big dog. No one is ever safe on the map. Territory doesn't give you invasion Ws.

Additionally, a map reset won't fix the "issue" of large territory factions or really test anything other than their patience with Dominions. Wipe the map and the bigger factions are going to do the same thing the smaller factions will: Dominions. Whether it's 25% reduction or 75% reduction, that's literally the common sense response to a wipe. And, suddenly, we're back to square one. Maybe in a few months, maybe in a couple years, but the clouds will be basically the same. Not much getting tested by a wipe imo.

Hailyn

So are we just going to wipe the map every couple of years when it gets full? Is that really a sustainable answer to the "problem" of overcrowding?

If the way to both stay in the good graces of the community and not be subject to a wipe is remaining beneath a certain number of hexes, isn't that a much more sustainable ruleset than "map's full, nuke it. Partially though."

Moreover, slowing down factions' territory growth isn't going to stop the map from looking like this in 2021. 25% of TSE, CIS, and SJO's cloud isn't hard to regain with the right mandates.

And, y'know, a gross disregard for sanity because idk about y'all but I'm soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo over Dominions.

 

[Ryv]

So are we just going to wipe the map every couple of years when it gets full? Is that really a sustainable answer to the "problem" of overcrowding?

Yeah.

 

[Argis Volmir]

Darth Metus
If you're really that tired of Doms why focus on them so much? Could focus more on faction stories and threads instead of trying to be one of the biggest stains on the board. The Map Game shouldn't be more important than the potential story, especially if being tied to the map game means driving yourselves ragged because you want territory. That's a pretty unhealthy mindset brudda.

 

[Grrwunhoooll Agaburry]

^^ Yes that

 

[Daiya]

I mean, at this point you might as well give major factions a cap on how many hexes they should have.

I could see a few breakpoints along the way (or a sliding scale) that would amp up the requirements as factions grow on the map. There's nothing inherently wrong with large factions, and there's always going to be writers who enjoy that style of storytelling, but that doesn't mean the large factions should be able to stay that way forever if their members can no longer support it.

This is just an idea that's been bouncing around in my head for a few months, nothing's fleshed out yet. I think there's room for dialing up the rigor for factions as they expand, and would like to know if anyone else agrees.

 

[Hailyn]

Darth Metus
You just said there was reason behind it before, as in justification, and included photographic examples of what you decided would be justification for a map reset.

A map reset, I should add, is not on the table here. We are not discussing wiping the map, so let's completely get off of that topic. But if we were to be discussing that, going by your logic yes, because you said the previous map that you shared was a reasonable excuse to do so.

But no, that isn't on the table, instead we're discussing a faction over 10 hexes losing/discarded/disabling/etc 25% (1/4, 0.25x, etc) of its current hexes at the discretion of those major factions that have over 10 hexes. I will happily do so if there's some event tie-in or something where there's activity involved with it. The Sith Empire has (I haven't actually counted, so this is an estimate) about 60 or so hexes on the map, 25% of that is 15 hexes, or a little bigger than NIO's size.

Do I think I'll dominion that much space back? No. Do I think anyone will even want to? Not really, at least not while embroiled in invasions; but if that means a group of writers can take advantage of that loss of territory to insert themselves on an otherwise occupied piece of color on a picture of a galaxy that we don't even role-play on can go major where they want instead of having to fight tooth and nail to get to there, then I'd be all for not having to fight a war over space I don't even want.

And if there's a story to be had from the flashpoint itself where my members have the motivation to write on planets we've only done a single dominion for in the past and possibly continue doing so in the future? Then hell yeah "wipe the map" every 3 months.

 

[Adhira Chandra]

I have heard over and over again that this is a bad idea that won't fix the problem. However, I think it should be noted that I have yet to read a compelling justification for why business-as-usual is the perfect solution to the problem most of us seem to agree exists... The closest thing to a justification at all seems to be "well we shouldn't have to do doms if we don't want to."

So... don't do doms then?

It just seems silly. The solution to an overcrowded map is to uncrowd the map in the fairest way possible and unless there is a salient point made justifying why that isn't a good idea aside from "I dont wanna" my opinion will remain unchanged.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

A very rough comparison of current hexes +-2
TSE: 102
CIS: 100
OPA: 77
SJO: 69

Just so people are informed about the numbers being discussed.

 

[Ariel Yvarro]

Anyone hugging onto a color so hard they can't see story need to take a moment and step back. These partial map wipes are a great story advantage! You can play out civil war stories, you can play out secessionist stories, and so many other stories. You can diplomacy these hexes back, you can dominion these back and work in narrative from faction threads. These are nothing more than opportunities to tell story and different types of story, these can help increase activity. Hey, here's a bonus you don't have to deal with invasions you can just collaborate.

 

[LT-137]

It's really telling, when the biggest faction on the board is willing to conditionally turn a swathe of their hexes neutral in favour of the narrative potential these flashpoint events would offer.

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

People seem to forget why there are blobs this big on the map, and the reason for this is our fault as the SWRP community. I remember 2018 very well. I remember how people were on about not wanting to invade this or that faction because they didn't want to have to deal with them due to the OOC, leaving said factions to grow at speed that they were more than free to set without any interference. This is still prevalent in a lot of invasion talks behind the scenes. Where stories could be made, the number one reason for not building stories via invasion is because of the lack of will to deal with the people running some of those factions. And while the situation has been getting better, we're not really out of those woods yet.

And this is not something that a map wipe or territorial shrinking will ever take care of. It'll just delay the situation a bit before it happens again and we're back to discussing map wipes again.

 

[Hailyn]

I want to point out that I asked for the ability to willingly turn hexes neutral at will in another suggestion, even if the map wipe/soft cap/whatever you want to call it doesn't happen, then I'm going to do it my way regardless.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

Hailyn
Yes, I will do a separate discussion about this.

Schisms or Insurrections or something similar.

 

[Kyra Perl]

A very rough comparison of current hexes +-2
SJO: 69

Just so people are informed about the numbers being discussed.

...halts domming

but for reals I haven’t launched a dom in like 1.5 months and besides shoring my New cap I don’t have any in sight. let’s not make this about whether someone is writing for the right reasons and focus on the question at hand

the question of this thread is should a wipe be scaled- and I think yes, but it should touch everyone (if even to just lose 1 and give them agency in the story) or people will just learn the cap and float there cause at the end of the day we lazy at heart and we’re not gonna expand if we know another reset is on the horizon.

I also really dig a cap with a reward once we get there. But I see the issues it comes with. My two cents.

 

[Ulkahall Svaraghaun]

It's kinda upsetting that when a really good compromise that brokers things between both groups comes along, most folks are turning their arguments into... well what feels like bad faith arguments.

Yall are forgetting this is meant to be a compromise, I feel as if you're still coming from an all or nothing stance, it doesn't really seem to take in the feelings of the community as a whole.

This isn't a decision people should be thinking of as TSE, as NIO, as GA, so on and so forth, this is a decision people should be thinking of as a Chaos commoner. If you're argument is coming from a point of view of me, my folks, and my worries instead of "hey maybe we can meet in the middle" no progress is going to be made and some group of people are going to walk away upset.

Yea, at the start of this my main worry was the new small factions that would get torn off the map, but past that, I was willing to change my opinion when a good compromise was offered.

Take a step back, lads, focus on the bigger picture. We aren't here to divide the community.

 

[Damian Starchaser]

So people are talking about more long term solutions to map crowding and trying to develop planets instead of just dominion'ing new ones and I'd say the problem is how the site in general functions. There is a mechanical incentive to doing a dominion where you gain a hex on the map. There is a bit of accomplishment there seeing how the map shifts. There isn't that sort of mechanical incentive to do other faction activities, but if there was... if say getting your SSD wasn't tied to dominions but was instead tied to other faction threads and/or codex subs? I think you'd see a lot more planets get fleshed out and this would split time from dominions to other faction activity which would hopefully slow overall growth or even let factions grow tall instead of wide.

You could easily do this with other things as well. Slight tech advantages factions get as rewards for good non dominion activity. When I say slight I mean that too nothing huge just a little tweak to the template here or there you know? An extra bit of speed rating because you guys just did a thread for like races where you tested engines out. I donno it would be like cooperative Dev threads something just to jump-start other activities.

An idea to try to keep size down... Instead of doing a single Invasion for a single Hex why not create a like... a theater system. Today we're going to fight over the wider Zeltros Theater of operation consisting of Hex's X, Y, and Z! Do smaller threads but more of them over the course of a month or so and allow more than a single hex to change hands or go neutral. Maybe have it be based on percentage of defenders owned hex's. Larger Empires can lose more. If you did that you'd prolly want to cap how much a smaller guy could gain and the rest would have to go neutral.

You'd get to tell more personal stories with smaller threads linked to a larger goal (or at least stories that are easier for other people to read up on) and you'd get more epic feel of larger swathes of space being up for grabs. You could also have partial victories or defeats. Maybe Hex X goes to the Sithy Siths and the Goody Two Shoes managed to defend well enough to keep two hex's. In the past when certain tech advancements were linked to little staff event threads (which I don't suggest we go back to) it would soften the blow of losing the planet to get something else. That way everyone 'won' something. Happened at Roche, and Dark Harvest, by design.

So i'm not sure if even I agree with everything I've said up above or think this is the way to go, but I'm sick and can't sleep saw this thread and decided to try to actually throw some idea's at the wall instead of my normal stay out of it approach.

 

[Bernard of Arca]

Dominions are a choice, not a requirement. I think we've sort of turned them into one because back in the day it was exciting to build your territory, the allure of the map game was motivation enough to try them out and, over the years, they stuck because they've consistently been the thread type that is "low-effort", easily done, and most importantly, rewarded. There's little stopping big major factions from just not pursuing more dominions for a bit. They have the buffer, they have the planets, so why aren't there more faction threads and storylines?

I think there are two main reasons for that. One, as above, the map gain has been an easy incentive for factions to continually pump out dominions because they're easy threads, they show you have activity, and you get something tangible out of it on the map that you, as a faction, can come together to and point at to say 'Yeah, we did that'. Invasions offer the same to some degree, but they're not as easy (the risk vs reward is heavily skewed towards the latter).

From the counter-arguments I've read (a perceived need to do dominions) it sounds to me like people are just not willing or able to put up the effort to think of bigger storylines for their factions that don't involve just doing more doms. I'm not trying to condemn factions for doing this, nor do I blame them, I've tried to think of major storylines too, it's a pain in the rear, but when you control upwards of 50 hexes? You have all the territory you'd ever need to worldbuild on, to develop storylines on, to do things with. I think the fact that doms have been the only threads with tangible gain, along with years of habit built to just keep doing them over and over, has created a perceived need to do them.

I might be completely of my rocker here, I'm willing to admit, but my point is: I think we can reduce this need for doms by creating more incentives for alternative thread types to be pursued by factions, that offer some reward other than hexes for a faction. One idea was my mandate proposition earlier in the thread that allows faction threads to be submitted instead of dominions for SSDs, but this is just one suggestion that doesn't even scratch the surface of what we can do to incentivize factions to do threads other than doms. What if we had rewards tied to the factory or codex? A special unit or a major bit of tech that factions can grind towards over prolonged periods of time? Idk I'm just trying to provide some kindling for discussion on this.

Ultimately, as much as I would love for all factions to pursue non-dominion activity for the sake of story and story alone, I don't know if that's entirely feasible right now based on the state of the community and personal preferences. I'm all for this decay being implemented, limiting faction size is good and I think that doms do have a place on the site (the decay effectively requiring factions to continue doing them to maintain their clouds). They can be great when done right and factions that are all about them can continue doing doms for the sake of gaining territory infinitely this way. However, I'd like to see some of the perceived necessity to continually force them out be reduced too, and more choices and alternatives, I think, are always a step in the right direction.

/ramble

EDIT: ohjeez, I guess I kind of echo what Damian Starchaser said. Typed this up before I even saw your reply, apologies!

 

[Judah Lesan]

Partial map wipe, full map wipe... they accomplish the same thing... nothing.

I was here for the last map wipe, and we are nowhere near that crowded. But we are also back to the issue where there are several large factions controlling the map. Some of you should have seen the map with the First Order and the GA were large and in charge. It was more crowded then than it is now, and yet the CIS found room to pop up three years ago, and now look. The SJO found room to move because they were running out of it... look at how many hexes they gained since.

Let's also get at what is underneath all of this.

If we are honest... even a map wipe attached to story is still an OOC motivated map wipe... is it because we need it? Is it appeasement? Is it because factions want territory other factions are occupying and don't want to chance an invasion to get it? Are we just looking to upset the apple cart? Is it all of the above?

The map game, especially where invasions are concerned will always generate large factions, medium ones, and smaller ones. The map game should also be pushing people to invade to gain territory, but if there is a map wipe we are actually taking steps away from that, not toward it.

So what happens if the map gets full and people still refuse to invade to gain territory and just want to write in their groups? Does that mean the map game is a thing of a past? That it is somehow obsolete? How can we answer these questions without the tension a crowded map brings?

There is always opportunity... and as has been suggested above... there are other solutions which will actually be much more story driven if that is the actual point here.

If the solution this community always runs to is a map wipe we will miss out on avenues for creativity. Let's not forget the definition of insanity is doing the same exact thing repeatedly and expecting a different result.

 

[Jsc]

looks at map

Wait. How are we being oppressed again? No seriously. Can anybody show me, somebody, anybody, who is being oppressed right now. I just need one person. One, real, actual person. Not a fantasy of "but stories". Not a beautiful utopia of "but potential narratives" wrapped in rainbow farts and children's laughter. Not one more useless opinion about how "Metus should live his life". I mean, just one person, one tiny circumstance, of oppression and tyranny, because the map is colorful.

Because. I don't think any of us is actually oppressed right now. I think we're all bored, or just find the current meta distasteful, or think we get to tell Metus how he should live his life. Because, yeah. No. "The map is crowded" is not an actual problem. Narratives are not victims. And none of us are oppressed because somebody else is successful, at playing, a map, game.

If all this fuss is just about finding a fleeting majority opinion. That a "crowded" map is simply "too distasteful to bear". I'm seriously, seriously worried about our communal mental health right now. Umph.