Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

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Are Jedi Evil, but just have good press officers [spoilers]

Well-Known Member
[member="Xakthul"] not all sith are the same, thus not all sith can be said to be hypocritical to their beliefs. They don't even need to be murderous, that's just the stereotype. The sith code is all about passion and the seizing of ambitions. A sith's passion could be love, and their ambition self-betterment. Therefore your view is flawed in trying to say all sith are the same simply by following their code.

Though I vaguely sense that your post may not have been entirely serious... So whatevah
 
The Jedi are hypocritical to their code. They form attachment pretty often (Revan, Meetra Surik, Anakin, Satele Shan.... The fact that a 'Shan bloodline' exists is proof of this.)
Plus, the notion of 'Detachment' as people understand it is not the same as 'Non-Attachment', which is what they realistically think the Jedi believe they should follow. Sadly, this is a misnomer: Jedi advocate detachment, meaning to separate oneself from the emotionally-controlling elements of relationships where attachments are present. This doesn't mean that they don't form relationships: they have to. Masters form relationships with Apprentices, they have friends, colleagues, allies and so on - and, obviously, some even had families. Might be easier if I outline the differences between the two:

Detachment

This is a state whereby one removes control-elements from their thinking, so that they can maintain an attachment without it having an effect on their judgment. Think of it like this: you're the parent of a child currently studying at school. Because you want the child to succeed, you place pressure on them to get good grades. When they don't, you become disappointed, and they feel guilty. What has thus resulted is that your child has been pressured by you, feels badly about themselves because they have disappointed your expectations, and this has meant that your attachment (and theirs to you) has actually harmed them emotionally. This is the control-element in the relationship: the cycle of expectation by one causing disappointment and thus making the other person feel bad/guilty because they didn't meet your expectations.

The idea of Detachment is to remove this element: to be aware, consciously, of the ways in which an attachment to another person (whether a friend, colleague, member of your family...) can potentially affect your judgement, or affect them in ways that might alter your behaviour. It's essentially whereby you liberate yourself (and them) from having their judgement clouded by your influence, or yours by theirs. Use our previous example: if you know that expectation can create disappointment and lead the child to feeling bad about themselves, you can remove expectations from the equation: encourage, but don't judge, so that the child ultimately works hard and tries their best, but doesn't have to worry about hurting your feelings (i.e. by disappointing you!), and thus is able to act free from the burdens their attachment places upon them.

For Jedi, it boils down to a practical approach: they can form relationships, but ultimately separate themselves from these controlling influences. They can respect, admire and love the people they are attached to, but keep themselves aware of these influences, so when the time comes to make a decision, they can separate themselves from them. As Yoda said: "train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose". That's not saying don't form the attachments, it's saying that you have to learn to detach yourself from the need to hold onto those relationships: that you have to be prepared to let go when the time comes, because you serve the Force and must act for the greater good, not merely for yourself. It's where Anakin screwed up - and also why he ended up killing the woman he loved: because he couldn't let go.

Non-Attachment

This is the more aggressive of the two doctrines: it requires that an individual utterly isolate themselves, by never forming close relationships or attachments to people, organisations and objects, essentially being able to 'let go' at any time, simply because the connections they do form are ultimately transitory. This thus enables them to act in a manner that frees them of attachment conditions: they don't have the burden of worrying what people will think or feel, because those relationships (however tenuous) don't really matter in the long-run. Technically, it's effective (if difficult to achieve), but hard for the majority to adopt, simply because it's natural to form relationships and connections. As such, the idea of Non-Attachment would exist, perhaps, as an ideal, rather than as a practical reality.

Which do the Jedi follow? I'd argue Detachment rather than Non-Attachment - certainly the Jedi of the New Jedi Order used the former, and I'd argue that such was true of the Old Republic Jedi Order as well. It's not about not forming attachments, but rather about being able to let go of those elements in these relationships which would adversely affect the decision-making of the Jedi in question. If you have people trapped in a burning building: your family in one room, a group of doctors in another, senators in a third, and a small group of children in the fourth, when you can only save but one group before the whole thing collapses, whom do you save? A person constrained by attachment would choose their family: thus, the Doctors, the Senators and the children would die. Is this the right move to make? Or does it mean that more people will die because the Doctors won't be able to save them? Or that worlds will suffer because the Senators are unable to act for their benefit? Or that the lives of many potential families will cease to exist, because the group of children never grow old enough to have children of their own? Which would you go with? View it through your personal attachments, then think independently of them. What's your conclusion?

Anyway, I don't think the Jedi are hypocritical with regards to their policy of Detachment, just for reference. Thought I'd clear up that common misconception before it got people all riled up. It's normal to think that they mean 'form no attachments', but common sense really says otherwise.
 

Javar Ikon

Seriously, not a Bartender
Fatty , you're right, I should re-state what I said. The Sith that are considered the epitome, or role models, or whatever, by other Sith tend to be the ones who are murderous maniacs.

Tirdarius , I was mostly speaking of Old Republic-style Jedi (so, pre-Yavin iterations)... Luke's version of the Order encourages relationships, if you really think about it.
a) Because he needs more Jedi
b ) Because he was really in the habit of turning Sith from the Dark Side, and he gave some explanation that turned Sith usually needed some sort of emotional anchor to turn to the Light.

You're right. The people I named are mostly bad examples, but they're the strongest examples I could think of.

However, neither side is required to be truly evil or truly good to use the Force fully. The strongest possible Jedi (going by the Code, anyway) would practically be a robot, following a route of 'non-attachment', as you put it. Clearly, though, non-attachment doesn't work best, as the Force requires some emotion to work.

Funny enough, the Sith have it wrong, too. They mostly kill to connect with the Force, but anger isn't the only form of passion that works. Any kind of passion or emotion, if it's strong enough, would be usable to strengthen yourself in the Force.

The ones who are right are the 'gray' force-users. The problem with this lot is that they mostly tend to go insane when in contact with the amount of power they can handle. Luke, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Mace Windu are some of the very few 'gray Jedi' who were able to actually use both sides of the Force to strengthen themselves without going batsh*t insane. Darth Scourge, Kel'eth Ur, and maybe even Darth Malgus are a few Sith who were able to use both, off the top of my head.
 
Well-Known Member
What a pretty little picture you have disillusioned yourself that any side in any conflict is inherently "right". The grey aren't a unified order, thus their positive or negative actions are judge by the individual. An order such as the Jedi or Sith can only be judged as an order, and not by using people as examples, who are fallible to breaking the edicts of their order in hypocrisy quite easily.

I suppose you could try to argue anything you want for this, or against that, but it is your right to be wrong :p (le joke)

The tenets (read: codes) of the Jedi or Sith are no more or less malicious than say, government laws, or any Christian values, or Hindi values, or really any value at all. It's all about the mass of individuals, and how as a whole, do they act in context to positivism or negativity in relation to everything else. The Sith order could be called the objective term "good" if a vast majority of them aren't genocidal maniacs... but unfortunately the culture of their civilization wordlessly dictate that it be that way, because the fiction of this universe has no faith in the innocence of human passion -for whatever reason-, except apparently in cases of redemption... then its all okay... apparently.

Basically what I'm saying is, the order's are exactly what they're cracked out to be because that's the universe we're talking about. Sith be evil, Jedi be goodz because the big guy said so originally. End of story.

You can't argue that words can be objectively either or, or right or wrong. They are just words, and up to interpretation. Though context is often times what influences that interpretation to perpetuate the culture of previous interpreters of those same words, thus making outsiders to judge it according to who seems to follow a popular interpretation most often.
 
Well-Known Member
I found this on Facebook believe it or not, and I thought it was inspiring. I don't have the post of how he says the Sith Code is better or something but I have this one and demonstrates a lot of the hypocrisies found in the Jedi Code. So I guess according to this they really are "good" by virtue of a good press office... and also because they are written as moral beings seeking to better others in the only way they know how (which isn't usually very effective).


"You read my thoughts on the Sith Code, and how it is perfect and whole in it's own understanding. It is an acknowledgement of nature, and it is the guidelines we use to better ourselves. It is not the opposite of the Jedi Code, but the Jedi Code is extremely flawed, and I will explain why.

"There is no emotion, there is peace."

A Jedi would have you understand that they are guardians of peace. They root out corruption, fight against anger and hate, and don't let their personal feelings interfere with their job. It is MUCH worse than that. The Jedi outright deny their emotions. Emotion is at the very core of human development, something we master to gain full control over ourselves. The Jedi seek to strip that from you, to take it away and make sure you are left with nothing but the orders that are given to you. You are not a person to them, you are a soldier, you are a droid programmed to carry out the letter of the law.

The Jedi preach peace, but they train as warriors. How can an organization that claims to be peaceful and pacifistic also be among the most elite fighting group in the galaxy? It is hypocritical. They are intolerant, so they must wage war on those that they see do not fit THEIR ideal of truth instead of allowing others to find their own path.

"There is no ignorance, there is knowledge."

If a Jedi claims to be protectors and perpetrators of knowledge, then why do they deny knowledge to their students? The Jedi Council has regular meetings to discuss usage of the Force. They outlaw any Force abilities or combat techniques that they deem "too dangerous". Why is it dangerous to the Council? Because that knowledge would mean they lose their power. The Jedi Council effectively enslaves it's followers, then tells them which powers they are not allowed to use because using them means they can't tell others what to do.

The Jedi claim that they follow the "will" of the Force. The Force is a tool, it is not alive. If they claim to follow it, then why do they cut the Force in half with their beliefs, and then ONLY use one side of it? If they followed the will of the Force, shouldn't they use any power available to them? They are restricting their own power, and knowledge. The Jedi are not the seekers, they are the destroyers.

"There is no passion, there is serenity."

If there is no passion, then there is no culture. Walk into any art museum, and you can see passion put into every piece, every corner, every stroke of the brush. As Grand Admiral Thrawn said, "If you understand a culture's art, then you will understand that culture." Passion is the very soul of humanity, it is the reason we have for living. Taking it away is to effectively treat us as slaves. If we can not have emotion, then we can not have dreams, we can not have ideas, we can not have stories of our own. We become lifeless as a society.

While I have nothing against serenity itself, the Jedi take it to the utmost extreme. Synonyms for Serene are Calm, Peaceful, and Tranquil. Have you ever heard of the tranquilizer dart? It will take down a charging bear within seconds. This is what the Jedi are, they are hunters, they see in their twisted minds that we as humans are just animals. We are roaming around, doing what we like, what we desire, where are hearts our set, and they want to take it all away. They are jealous of the lives we lead, that is why we must be like them. They want us to share in their misery of living. They want us put down like savage beasts.

"There is no chaos, there is harmony."

Chaos is the natural order of the universe. Go into any ecosystem, any habitat, and nature will tell you itself that it is chaotic, yet it is also good. Chaos is not a pit, as the Jedi see it, chaos is a ladder that we use to test ourselves against. We take conflict, but we don't feed on it, we combat against the conflict. Fighting against it is what makes us grow and adapt and evolve as beings. The Jedi spit on anything that indicates we are capable of making our own decisions and directions, they think that if everyone had a dream to pursue then that would be chaotic.

Their version of harmony is communistic dictatorship where we are all not only equal, but that we obey without question, we take what we are given, and we give back what we acquire because as Jedi they are not supposed to have possessions. They are not allowed trophies of their accomplishments, they are not allowed to have pride in themselves for the things they do, they are not allowed to find simple joy in reaping the benefits of their own hard work. To the Jedi, that is harmony.

"There is no death, there is the Force."

This is the most depressing line in the Jedi Code. In a way, ti is the acknowledgement that they are, in fact, dead inside. How can someone die if they have never truly lived? In this, there is no death, and they are correct. However, their deep reverence for a tool is their undoing.

Why should I worship the hammer I use? It served it's purpose, I am thankful for it's existence, but it is not a god to me. It did not create me, I used it to create something else. That is exactly the same thing with the Force. I perform feats with the Force and I benefit from my hard work in mastering it, I am not it's ally, I am not it's tool, I am not it's servant. I am the one that trained and studied and made use of my time in learning the mysteries of the Force as the greatest tool mankind has ever wielded. If it were alive, then it would not have created two distinctly opposed religions that war over every little philosophical debate. In this, the Jedi have it wrong. If they want to follow the will of the Force, then they will indeed need to die as their mandate suggests.

In closing: Don't believe any of the lies Jedi say, because they are the real tricksters, they are the real bringers of destruction. They are bringing a flawed sense of order to nature, and it will not be tolerated.

- Admin [for the Facebook Page Darth Revan] Darth Malak"

Just thought I'd share that.
 

Sugar

Let's Have a Little Fun
I'm gonna say what I usually say when we start babbling about the history of these orders.

The Jedi weren't evil.


They were, however, pretty fething incompetent.


Nobody even considered vetting Palpatine. Nobody? Not after he expanded executive and war powers in controversial laws? Not after he seemingly prepared an entire infrastructure quickly and readily for a clone army that conveniently fell into everyone's lap? Not after he began systematically planning military affairs and executive training.


The Jedi's bad luck with attachment/detachment/personal identity led to some of their biggest screw-ups. While it wasn't evil how they dealt with Anakin, it was impractical to say the least. Honestly, given how often their biggest enemies came from their own ranks (Dooku, Vos, Anakin, the twenty lost ones), you'd think they'd consider some hiring some actual counselors for the stress of service in battle.


Geonosis was also a pretty bad tactical blunder. Send poorly trained teenagers to gather intelligence on Geonosis, and wait until it goes Sheb-on-head stupid to send in the cavalry? You had better agents and operatives in the Jedi.


Which brings me to another issue: Why would you let the childhood friend going through puberty guard the royal hot chick he makes googly eyes at constantly? Seriously, dropping balls left and right here, guys.


So, to conclude, while I won't say that Yoda and company were evil in any sense of the term, they weren't very smart for a bunch of sages. They didn't plan well at all, and that is a large part of why they fell.
 
The Jedi are neither good, nor are they evil. They are merely not the dark side of the force. They are not meant to be nice and good and all that stuff, they exist to bring order and balance to the force. Whether that means killing someone or saving someone, it depends on the situation. It is not a black and white issue. The old jedi council believed this, and they ceased to exist by the time Yoda became grand master. This argument of good v evil between sith and jedi is ridiculous and should never be brought up, as all they are is Selflessness v. Selfishness. That is all the two are. Anything more black and white is utter nonsense. Read the tenets of each and you find what they truly are, not the propaganda that either put out nor what the followers think of themselves.
 

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