Are Jedi Evil, but just have good press officers [spoilers]

[sabrina]

Hi after a slight debate in covenant q & a, I decide to bring up another topic.

I am willing to say cannon wise, not chaos wise as this people making their own stories though it is fun. Jedi are actually the true evil, and people only think they good due to good press coverage.
Yoda: does not follow the jedi code when it suits him
examples
1: he lets anakin be trained, to appease a friend obi wan kenobi. episode 1 (emotion)
2: he tells anakin not to investigate has force vision of his mother, and does not let him contact him
this starts anakin down the dark path episode 2
3: he has no calms using a slave army, to save his friends episode 2
4: in episode 3 he puts obi wan kenobi against his best friend, yes anakin had fallen but he put him emotional strain.

obi wan kenobi
1: knows his padawan is going through hard time with his dreams, but does not help find why he hasing them. A simple holo call to tatooine would sorted this, instead he lets anakin suffer
2: he willing to sacrifice gungang (the true hero`s of episode 1) to suit his need. Rather than getting a few more jedi, and giving them a fighting chance.
3: lies to luke skywalker, to get him to do what he wants

Mace windu
1: tells anakin I don`t trust you, well that give anakin bad feeling
2: insults anakin with yoda, by not accepting him as master
3: unwilling to arrest palpatine, as he too powerful. So he chose the quick easy route. Though he gets killed doing this

Revan
1: goes to war, and then commits geocide against the mandalorians

I am sure their are others, please feel to say otherwise and I am sure you will.
I say jedi are evil with just good press officers.

 

[Zion Krayt]

yoda
1: he lets anakin be trained, to appease a friend obi wan kenobi. episode 1 (emotion) - Powerful force user, possibly the chosen one. Thinking of the betterment of the Force, thus the Galaxy.

2: he tells anakin not to investigate has force vision of his mother, and does not let him contact him - Jedi are not to have attachments from their past lives. Hardly evil.

this starts anakin down the dark path episode 2 - hardly jedi being evil because anakin was butthurt.

3: he has no calms using a slave army, to save his friends episode 2 - don't remember this sorry.

4: in episode 3 he puts obi wan kenobi against his best friend, yes anakin had fallen but he put him emotional strain. - Jedi vs Sith. Yoda put one of the last Jedi Master's against an extremely powerful Sith Lord.

obi wan kenobi
1: knows his padawan is going through hard time with his dreams, but does not help find why he hasing them. A simple holo call to tatooine would sorted this, instead he lets anakin suffer - The visions would still happen, until his mother was saved.

2: he willing to sacrifice gungang (the true hero`s of episode 1) to suit his need. Rather than getting a few more jedi, and giving them a fighting chance. If I remember correctly there was kind of a war going on, and the gungans fought for their own planet. lol

3: lies to luke skywalker, to get him to do what he wants Only lie was his father was killed by Darth Vader. Kind of true tbh.

Mace windu
1: tells anakin I don`t trust you, well that give anakin bad feeling - Anakin is Palpatine's obvious messenger in the Jedi Order.

2: insults anakin with yoda, by not accepting him as master - Hardly unjedi like, he was like 17 years old, and it's said somewhere that you have to be a Jedi Knight for twenty five years. He only wanted to be a Master because he was strong and he was on the Council. A Jedi must conquer their arrogance. Anakin didn't.

3: unwilling to arrest palpatine, as he too powerful. So he chose the quick easy route. Though he gets killed doing this - The Jedi are at war with the Sith, it would have probably been impossible to arrest Palpatine without having to kill him in the process anyway. The Jedi put the needs of the majority before the needs of the few. That's in the jedi tenets.

[member="sabrina"]

 

[Ayden Cater]

1: he lets anakin be trained, to appease a friend obi wan kenobi. episode 1 (emotion)
2: he tells anakin not to investigate has force vision of his mother, and does not let him contact him this starts anakin down the dark path episode 2
3: he has no calms using a slave army, to save his friends episode 2
4: in episode 3 he puts obi wan kenobi against his best friend, yes anakin had fallen but he put him emotional strain.

1. Anakin being trained was agreed up by the Council in light of the revelation that the Sith were not eradicated as they once thought, and that Anakin was prophesized as the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force by destroying the Sith (Assuming one views balance as the absence of Sith and their corrupting nature, but that's for a whole different debate)
2. Jedi do not have attachments for this precise reason. Yoda was stressing to Anakin the dangers of attachment. He was actively warning him to try and keep him from putting himself in a situation that, in Yoda's eyes, the boy was not ready for.
3. The Clone Army, for starters, were not made of slaves. Clones =/= Slaves. Master Sifo-Dyas commissioned the Clone Army using a consenting man's agreement. And even after their commission, there were clones that exercised free will and deserted, but that's another issue for a different debate. As far as the movie shows us, Yoda shows up and sees an army ready for Republic orders. Not a slave army.
4. There weren't exactly a lot of other choices to pick from. Obi-Wan was nowhere near strong enough to try and tackle Palpatine, and if they let Anakin go he would have just gone into hiding and kept the Sith going. This was after Order 66, so the vast majority of Jedi were dead. It was a hard choice, but it had to be made.
   

 

[Jsc]

Gungans (the true hero`s of episode 1)

"Hello my Apprentice." - Yuku

 

[Valik]

[member="Ashin Varanin"] actually moderated a discussion on this very topic in a political science class IIRC. I believe the discussion ended with priests who'd been raised as child soldiers marching to the head of a major government in order to kill someone who followed a different religion than they did.


But Ashin could really tell the story better than I could.

 

[Ayden Cater]

obi wan kenobi
1: knows his padawan is going through hard time with his dreams, but does not help find why he hasing them. A simple holo call to tatooine would sorted this, instead he lets anakin suffer
2: he willing to sacrifice gungang (the true hero`s of episode 1) to suit his need. Rather than getting a few more jedi, and giving them a fighting chance.
3: lies to luke skywalker, to get him to do what he wants

1. Again, this ties into Jedi not having attachments. It does Anakin no good as a Jedi to allow him to reestablish those attachments ten years later.
2. Obi-Wan never expressed a willingness to sacrifice Gungans. If anything, he advised them to the perils of the plan and the opposition that they would face.
3. He did not lie to Luke. Telling someone that the father they always dreamed about meeting and knowing was in fact one of the Galaxy's greatest mass murderers and enforcing of the reign of tyranny that the boy also dreamed about helping defeat is not exactly an easy pill to swallow. What he told Luke was the truth, but not the whole truth. It was not said to get Luke to do what Obi-Wan wanted. It was said to spare Luke a painful truth he was not ready to face.

 

[sabrina]

So if clones where not slaves, what where they as they had no free will
[member="Ayden Cater"]
at least the massi followed and died for exar kun freely, they chose with free will

also as for making hard choices, that quick and easy route, does that not lead to darkside
please also remember count duku was willing to negotiate once he got his army in the meeting. It was the jedi who attacked

 

[Ignatius]

And here we see opinions roaming wild and rampant.

A lot of these here are opinions and not real things that can be argued over.

 

[Ayden Cater]

Mace windu
1: tells anakin I don`t trust you, well that give anakin bad feeling
2: insults anakin with yoda, by not accepting him as master
3: unwilling to arrest palpatine, as he too powerful. So he chose the quick easy route. Though he gets killed doing this

Revan
1 goes to war, and then commits geocide against the mandalorians

1. Mace Windu, as a Jedi Master, was in full right to express his belief that Anakin was not up to the task of attempting to take down a man that had become like a mentor to him, a man that was just revealed to be a Sith Lord. Superiors express their honest evaluation of their subordinate's capabilities all the time. Doesn't make them evil.
2. Windu understood that Palaptine was simply manipulating the boy and trying to control the Council. He couldn't outright deny the Chancellor, but he was within his right to not grant Anakin the rank of Master, as the boy was not ready for such a position.
3. Again, here Windu understood the full depths of the dangers that Palpatine posed. He had spent three years orchestrating a galactic war to elevate himself and his office to unprecedented levels of power. He controlled the Senate and the Courts. As well, he was revealed to be a Sith Lord, something that the Jedi are sworn to stamp out as the Dark Side is inherently corrupting.

And as far as Revan goes, he received his actions were condemned by the Jedi Council and led to the scape-goating of Meetra Surik.

 

[Jacen Cavill]

I fee like this is a tired topic, and one that is literally just us beating a horse to death.


Jedi are good guys, Sith are bad guys.

 

[Darth Carnifex]

Jedi are good guys, Sith are bad guys.

Sith are just misunderstood.

Stop oppressing me!

#DownWithTheJediTyranny!

 

[Vulpesen]

Revan's genocide... Lets not forget why Revan wears his mask. Mandos had just finished wiping out the cathar after one of their own tried to save them. Her bravery was honored by Revan as he took up her mask and decided to wear it until the mandalorians were stopped. Revan was a hero as he pushed back the mandalorians, defending the galaxy as best he could. Yes, he went overboard but many of the jedi with him stayed true to the code after this battle. Meetra Surik was one of these jedi. Lets also not forget that Revan was eventually turned back to the light while his padawan Malak, stayed sith. A sith who by the way, BLEW UP TARIS!

Basically, Mandolorians waged genocide. Revan then waged war.

 

[Siobhan Kerrigan]

Dark Is Not Evil! The Sith are misunderstood anti-heroes and Dracos In Leather Pants who just want to wear dark robes rather than those dull brown ones and carry red lightsabres instead of green and blue ones. It's a lifestyle choice and they are being oppressed by the Jedi fashion tyranny!

As for the Mandos, war's not nice. Maybe they shouldn't have invaded the Republic for the lulz purely because they thought war was the fun thing to do.

 

[Nikolas Faselli]

Gosh... Another thread... It's just a matter of opinion. There are endless arguments about both sides, both about being good and being evil. We know there is no answer to these things.

But yeah, my opinion can be found from the previous Sith thread.

 

[Siobhan Kerrigan]

[member="Maria Natalja"]

These threads keep spawning. And all arguments are constantly recycled. Maybe we should always just copy paste our posts.

 

[Ignatius]

Maybe we should always just copy paste our posts.

Did it for you? Maybe?

Oh you mean.... nevermind.

 

[Aedan Miles]

There are people who are not to be messed with Jedi and Sith are those people. Then there is [member="Siobhan Kerrigan"] who no one wants to play tag with SO we hide. Or we get hit by friendly fire. THANKS SIO!

 

[sabrina]

[member="Ayden Cater"] so expressing your opinion is one thing, he would been better off sending anakin to do some thing. It would not stopped him thinking about palaptine, but it might stopped him from intervening. He may have the right to do what he did, still does not stop his action be wrong
Palptine was dangerous, and if he died while being arrested fair enough. He wanted to be judge jury and executioner. As you said like the sith he did not trust due proccess
Also revan was not sith, he never trained under sith. He was dark jedi, he took the name and the code but show me where he took the training to understand it
Also question who started the hyperspace war, I reckon it was the jedi. They won and rewrote the history book. They could do this with ease, as they committed act genocide. Please remember why the sith where korriban in first place, they where refugees. They escaped the jedi to korriban in the first place. Know they dark jedi integrated themselves into sith society, so they can live with other cultures. Yes they did initially conquer them, but then integrated as one people. Then what happened when the jedi found then war broke out, ending in genocide.


side note: this my first thread debating evil jedi, so sorry if their is othes

 

[Darth Veles]

They were good guys in the movies, not even I doubt that. In the EU though, it really varied. Sometimes they acted worse than any Sith, sometimes like proper Jedi. Some of them could be easily called evil or Dark Jedi, as they committed atrocities that put even Hitler and Stalin to shame.

I don't think you can say they are evil or good as a whole; there were Jedi acting more Sith than the Sith and there were Sith acting more Jedi than the Jedi. As far as EU is concerned, both orders are neutral in my opinion, the only reason we see some Sith do stupid and senseless evil things in most works is to make it clear they are the villains of the title. If I had a choice between a Jedi who does evil and a Sith who does good (imagine the SWTOR Dark Side options in for Jedi and the Light Side options for Sith), I'd pick the Sith...

 

[Lucien Cordel]

Morality is a perception it exists only in the mind of the observer. Therefore the Jedi are both evil and benevolent. It all depends on the specific circumstances of the observer. Ask a confederate foot soilder seconds from decapitation and the Jedi are probably evil. Ask a person from the republic and the Jedi are angels given mortal form. Furthermore the Jedi are all sentiment and are therefore made multiple dimensions to label them is to denied their complexity.