UK Votes To Leave the European Union

[Laira Darkhold]

We'll think of something that all this hardship and losing our voice in the EU will be worth. Just don't ask anyone who campaigned for Leave to come up with anything that isn't a lie.

Remember that time British politicians quoted US President Thomas J Whitmore:
"Today, we celebrate our Independence Day!"

I saw it and thought it was hilarious.

I'm not well enough informed to have an opinion on the matter, though I have learned quite a bit from the above posts and it doesn't look good.

Good luck.

 

[sabrina]

[member="Raziel"] I never listened to leave campaign, I been against the EU since 2007 since the Lisbon Treaty was enforced without a vote by the people, and yes it is worth it in my eyes.
I am sorry for hardship, but long term this is for best.

[member="Draco Vereen"] The Lisbon Treaty was basically The European Constitution, with a few minor changes. The issue with it, is that is was rejected by referendum under it's original form, by France and Holland. So they they fudged it, and no one had a say. That goes against my core beliefs, as if they are willing to do that, what else are they willing to do, in the name of this project. So the reason people are saying independance day, is because we just got out of a potential dictatorship.

 

[sabrina]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36660133
for those who think our economy going to the dogs for voting to leave the EU
and the pound is recovering, bet you wish you did not burn them [member="Aedan Lochlan"]

 

[Raziel]

[member="sabrina"]

Banks shares still appalling, credit ratings slashed.

We'll lose our voice in Europe, be subjected to EU laws without a say in them, just to hold onto access to the single market. If we can't negotiate access, then we'll see the collapse.

That you repeat such nonsense as "escaped a potential dictatorship", despite having it fully explained to you that we maintain sovereignty and are not subjected to any legislation without both MEPs and our government having a say is endemic of the voters who refuse to discuss the reasoning in any sensible manner.

 

[sabrina]

[member="Raziel"] well they still overruled a referendum of france and holland, and what would you call that?

 

[Raziel]

[member="sabrina"]

Who made the decision that was not in line with the referendum?

Is a referendum a binding part of the democratic process in this country or France and Holland?

Does the democratic process involve electing the leaders who made complex decision on our behalf, or does it entail making all of our decisions by consensus?



Answer these as succinctly as possible, please.

 

[sabrina]

[member="Raziel"] no it is not as far as I know, but the fact they said no first time round, and no say second time round stinks. As they got told no, so they do cosmetic changes and do it anyway. To me that is the begins if a dictatorship, as they blatantly ignored a referendum result, to suit their own purposes.

Also been reading, that even some Germans want a referendum now. The EU may be finished, with this growing clamour.

 

[Raziel]

[member="sabrina"]

I'll ask it more clearly: did the democratically elected leaders of those countries ignore a referendum result and /or call for another before signing up

OR

Did the EU ignore them and enforce something on the countries?

 

[Malia Afredane]

The market has taken a hit and whether or not it rebounds over all, things seen as riskier stocks have not. Like the shares of the company I work for, which have lost 28% of their value over the last week and continue a slow decline.

Currently, we are only available in the EU for commercial sale and our continuing clinical trials are heavily in the UK and Germany as well as stateside. The work we do helping cancer patients is important and the uncertainty in the markets and what will happen in the UK within two years is scaring the shit out of me as I would like to continue to have a job.

This affects more than just the UK.

 

[Judah Dashiell]

As an American, I don't know much about this beyond it brought gas here to $1.99/gallon and what I see on news satire shows. However, I was reading NPR this morning and came across this article about racism and the Brexit. I don't want to get too deep into this conversation but a lot of the news in the U.S. is painting it like a immigration/race decision.


True or was there more to this? Or are folks using the 'dictatorship' card to hide the fact they really don't want certain people allowed in-country?

 

[Werah Unon]

I'm Scottish, and I've long supported the EU. It is an amazing coalition of countries, and I am disappointed that we decided to leave it. The value of the pound means that stuff costs more, and we earn the same. Overnight, the UK went from the 5th largest economy in the world, to the 6th. Still, Scotland's probably going to leave the UK now, over the whole thing.

[member="Judah Dashiell"] Racism played a large part, probably a defining one. There was more to the leave campaign, but imo their main goal was to stop immigrants.

 

[sabrina]

[member="Raziel"] I see where you going with that, but all countries did not have say on it. Which stinks no matter how you put it, even if it is only Gordon Browns fault. I can not trust them with that question anymore, and it may finically harder to be out, but it feels safer. I know we will subject to possibly 10% of eu law to do with trade law to single market, and possibly enviromemental law, but they can't use a remain vote to expand the remit again. Like they did with EEC vote back in 75, as they lied then.

[member="Malia Afredane"] there will be a free trade deal

Editing wrote most other post on phone.

[member="Judah Dashiell"] Yes racist crimes have gone up to deny this would be a lie, and it is something that I HATE. The issue has been simmering for a while, due to ineptitude of political parties to address immigration related issues. Some of which see how armed force on the street, and people point that and ask wrongly why we helping others when we can't help our own, we should be helping both. Though I have started to want to leave back in 2007, due to how the lisbon treaty was implemented, that was years before the current migrant or debt crises.

[member="Werah Unon"] If you leave uk, unfortunately for you as it stands it will have to be after Brexit, as spain and france said they would veto you retaining membership. Also I doubt the tories will grant you another referendum, until brexit is concluded. Though if you do decide to leave, I wish you luck, as your going to need it.


If anyone intrested
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_establishing_a_Constitution_for_Europe this later became the lisbon treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
and they never went to public over it.

Also this is to do one 5 presidents in charge of the EU http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36662636

 

[Darth Veles]

UK was one of the most welcoming and accepting countries in the world and suddenly it is filled with racists? I don't buy it, especially since the media constantly try to portray all Brexit voters as old, uneducated, mentally challenged people who really wanted to vote for staying in UESR, but have accidentaly voted for leaving since they are naturally dumb and most likely have Alzheimer's disease as well.

lol

Imho the real reason for the referendum ending like this is due to EU becoming a socialist nightmare that wants to integrate countries that are vastly different, whether the people like it or not. If so many people are not happy with EU, then there's probably something wrong and it should be addressed instead of ignored. I remembered having a talk with my father some years ago. I, 16 years old at the time, passionately enthused about EU, soaked with TV propaganda about doing much better as a superstate. My father said he is against it, that this socialist organisation cannot survive and corruption will only grow. Back then I said my father was ignorant. Time showed there truly was ignorance, but not on my father's side.

 

[Malia Afredane]

[member="Malia Afredane"] there will be a free trade deal

That doesn't make any sense in regards to the point I was making which was about the risk and loss in the global stock markets. A trade deal isn't going to help us if a global recession tanks the company because no one will invest in our stocks thanks to uncertainty with the UK/EU split.

 

[sabrina]

[member="Malia Afredane"] I misunderstood your point then.

 

[Werah Unon]

The Scottish government has stated that it is going to do all it can to organise another referendum. The tories are not allowed to block a independence referendum, though they could try and campaign against it. Scotland wants to stay in the EU, and has made this very clear. The EU is not some evil corrupt alliance, it is an extremely beneficial aid to the UK, and the decision to leave will cut us off from the benefits of the EU, and leave us as a lonely island with no influence in the world. Maybe it is different in England, but a lot of the stuff we have here was paid for by the EU. Not even looking at the bigger picture, there has been a huge range of backlashes from leaving, and there are literally zero benefits from leaving anyway. [member="sabrina"]

 

[sabrina]

[member="Werah Unon"] I will have to break that down

Why no 2nd Referendum in short term, long term yes there will be.
1: Any referendum has to be approved by westminster, the Tories are in power. They are bit busy at the moment.
2: Nicolas Sturgen is playing gesture politics, as she wants to build up resentment, so when she does go to the polls, she might win.
3: Oil prices is low, and as such your running currently at -10% of gdp. This will continue until oil revenue recovers.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28879267

Scotland wants to stay in the eu
1: Yes you did, but if the turnout was as higher as rest country. If it was we might have stayed in the EU, and whilst I would have upset about, I doubt I would done as much complaining as the remain have about losing.

Yes the EU is corrupt, here are some examples.
1: Jean claude juncker, he tried to send to prison journalist who exposed what he had been upto when he was prime minister of luxembourg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36662636
2: Overfishing in african water, that make the locals go hungry
http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/blog/oceans/introducing-african-voices-tour-20110505
3: It never had its financial books signed off, why?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11209248/EU-auditors-refuse-to-sign-off-more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html
4: It spends 300 million a year moving from one building to another
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/655417/Brexit-EU-referendum-parliament-Strasbourg-Brussels-cost-British-taxpayers
I am sure there are more, but these as some that I know of top of my head.

The stuff Scotland get's from the EU, hate to break it to you, you get nothing from the EU.
The UK is a net contributor, we give them roughly 20 billion, and get back 10 billion per year, so we just get back our own money.

As for a backlash for leaving, well if they do that, then they lose.
1: We have trade deficit with the EU of 68 billion roughly.
2: Every one pound EU spends in our economy, we spend 2 pound in Germany.
3: If that ends then Germany will face bigger economic problems, and that in turn that may make the EU fail.

Benefits of being in the EU
1: What benefits?

Also one my worst fears of remaining got announced yesterday
https://www.rt.com/news/348927-eu-security-strategy-army/
I would not our soldiers dying on orders of some technocrat, bad enough when one of our politicians.

 

[Raziel]

[member="sabrina"]

Benefits? No benefits of the EU?

You have to be trying to wind me up now. You've had it explained and demonstrated to you that:

The UK is a sovereign body, the EU is not.
The EU is a democratic process, which you have a say in (you've chosen not to understand or be involved in this)
Immigration has not been proven to lower wages by the numbers you've quoted.

Yet you ignore this and persist.


Access to the single market and free movement of labour is a massive benefit to UK business and has driven investment in the UK.

EU membership is estimated to be worth around 4-5% of our GDP. Or around ten times the cost of the EU membership. Just look at the overwhelming support there was from business to remain in the EU. The examples of those who wanted to leave were in the minority. Business doesn't like uncertainty? We're just recovering from a recession and now we do this. Who is going to invest now when they don't even know what the UK's trade relationship is going to look like with the rest of the world in the next decade?

Please tell me you can understand how much this is going to hurt the economy?

The likely end result is we have something similar to Norway where we still pay for the EU, still have single market, free movement of goods and labour. We'd still be subject to most of the EU legislation too.

And we'll have stepped back and lost our say.

And as for the work to sort everything out from here, just check this out. We don't even have the expertise to do this. A monumental effort ahead of us just so we can shoot ourselves in the foot.

https://youtu.be/USTypBKEd8Y

 

[Raziel]

The net cost of the EU is around 7.1 billion, we pay them 12.9 billion

 

[sabrina]

[member="Raziel"] I tell you what, we will agree to disagree. As nothing will change either of our minds on the subject.

Though may I ask your thoughts on the part where the EU makes africans hungry, also this is made worse by the eu agricultural policy.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2011/oct/11/eu-agriculture-hurts-developing-countries
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/eu-subsidies-deny-africas-farmers-of-their-livelihood-478419.html
http://capx.co/how-the-eu-starves-africa-into-submission/