The Faction Discussion

[GhostOfProtocol]

Hey folks.

I was having a conversation with someone earlier about factions. Namely those with the major tag. Let's all agree that the top three Chaos factions are the CIS, TSE and SJO. They've worked hard to get to where they are, they have an active memberbase and good writing. They have players in the factions who focus on faction growth more than anything and those three factions hold 99% of most writers main characters.

Where does this leave our smaller factions?

The Commenor System's Alliance is a good example I'll use. For anyone who doesn't know what this was, a pacafist faction focused on developing one planet and governments and stuff. Personally, I was a very big fan of the CSA and I know a few people were. The CSA hit many activity issues however, because 99% of it's playerbase had main characters elsewhere and during the so called "invasion" periods these writers never focused on alts.

Another example of this is the Chiss. They're a faction trying to do so much different but are being hit with the same issue. Their member base having characters elsewhere and therefore focusing on the big three more than the CA. It means that the CA, hey Thorne, are having to stress to try and complete doms while the big three are walking through three doms a month with no issue because everyone has their main character there. Chaos' faction system right now is set up to accomodate the big three more than the little guys. With the main focus of the faction system being on grinding to expand to get access to the big toys such as the SSD's, the big three which can achieve that end up massively overpowered. Chaos has always worked like it, it's just become more noticeable since the new map because you can clearly see how big these big three are.

I took the liberty of speaking to a few new players and all of them seem to say the same thing. They're drawn to these big three because they look intimidating, they have massive 300+ writer playerbases and they're absolutely massive. Why would you not go to that if you're a new player who's scared, confused and not really sure of what's going on? Those massive factions clearly look the best for helping you.

These new players then don't branch out because all three of these big three factions are very focused on themselves and not relations with other factions. These new players become that used to the three dom a month grinding nature that the factions out there offering really unique story ideas are overlooked and it really sucks. Now clearly, I'm not talking about every single new writer here but hey, the few I've spoken too all seem to be in agreeance.

I just..

Chaos is great. We all agree. The faction system right now isn't great, with the big three factions getting all the rewards while smaller, way more interesting factions struggle to see the light of day because they have to compete with the big three. How do you and your 20 writer team compete with a faction that's got 5x, sometimes 10x more hexes than you and at least 10x the writers? You simply can't.

 

[Runi Verin]

Eh.

I'd like to point out that each of those three factions started in the exact same place as everyone else. The reason they've obtained top billing is because they've been much more proactive both in recruitment and in keeping their current members engaged. It might look like they have it easy, but you're dismissing the sheer amount of work required to keep that sort of momentum.

You gotta remember, they started in the exact same position with the exact same number of hexes/planets. They also had to contend with larger factions during their history as well. They've build themselves up by providing the players with what they want. You might not find it 'interesting', but obviously not everyone agrees with your assessment.

Don't fault them for being in a better position than you, ask yourself what they provide that you don't and attempt to address that issue. Granted, it won't be straight forward or easy, otherwise everyone would be doing it. But you can't fault a faction for putting in the work and profiting from the results.

tl;dr look to your own house first.

 

[GhostOfProtocol]

[member="Runi Verin"]

This isn't even remotely true.

The TSE for example was built from the ashes of the One Sith. The TSE had it's very large memberbase there under Carnifex, all they had to do was write and write they did. The SJO was around at a time where there was only like four major factions and therefore also had a way easier time of it because all the major factions were a lot smaller. The only one of the big three that statement is accurate for is the CIS who managed to grow during the current period, and no I don't fault them for that.

I'll continue to argue that Chaos right now is completely focused on the main three factions and not the smaller three. It's not difficult to see.

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

I think there is a misconception in what you wrote, and that's that the smaller factions are competing against the bigger ones. While from some aspects this is true, generally speaking, the factions are mostly competing to remain active. The activity requirements of the largest ones these days are not identical to the activity requirements of the smaller ones.

And while it is very true that many of the newer members would prefer to join the larger factions, who to new eyes might often seem more established, eventually, most people run several alts in several factions, and most of the focus goes to the faction that rubs their creativity the best.

So aside from hard work and effort, I think that a key ingredient to why these three factions you've mentioned are currently the biggest, is that they provide that service to a bigger audience, which helps them maintain their activity levels.

I don't see the SSDs as anything beyond fluff; SSDs don't win or lose invasions, they just give the fleeters another toy to play with. Same for hexes – a smaller hexed faction will not necessarily be weaker than a bigger hexed faction. None of the invasions won or lost in the last year had anything to do with total hex count of either sides' factions.

So how do you compete? Simple. You don't. You focus on your own faction, you recruit the people, and you realize that this is a long term game in which the team you build (and will continuously be building and changing) will have to provide to the members' needs on a more or less consistent base. There's no way to work around that.

[member="Kei Raxis"]

 

[Tera Highwind]

I think, if you're talking about this though then you also have to look at the ORC, and the success of that faction. They've been around for a long long time and they don't have a huge writer base, unlike the TSE, CIS or SJO, but they're focused on telling their story in their way. It's a unique set up from anywhere else on the board, but it work and it works well. The stories are fun and the activity is enough for the writers. (Since this is a thing, shoutout to Zark)

Not every faction needs to be about being the biggest baddest on the board, you don't need huge amounts of map space or SSDs if that's not the story you want to tell. You focus on your story and write that out. You don't need to expand to do that, you could sit at one hex and just do faction threads there if that's what the writers want to do, if it suits the faction's story. That's what it comes down to, writing a story with other people who want to write with you. As long as your faction is active and your storyline is good you'll attract writers. It's not easy and Nessa said, but it's possible for any faction.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

​I'm not necessarily an articulate guy, and I'm even having trouble collecting my thoughts on this subject.
But I'll say this;

​There's a lot of moving parts to each factions success. There's the OOC rep, who they have on their staff and how many different types of characters they can fit in their narrative. On that note, we can all agree that the current big three do have it easy there. And, its easy to retain members when you give them pretty graphics and, if you don't have any restrictions - you can do anything. So, ideas are easy come, easy go.

​I don't know a great deal about the infrastructure of the big three. But even with that said, its a lot more than just 'its easy'. Cause if it was easy, everybody would do it. I'll admit, its definitely harder for a faction with a stronger sense of identity like the Chiss Ascendancy to get off the ground, and I think that's where the focus should be. Not on how to tear down the big ones.

​How do we make it easier for more distinct groups like the Chiss Ascendancy and whatnot to push through? Do we stop the big three from advertising 247? [Looking at you CIS], they already have more members than the rest will probably ever have. Why do they need more? Its so you can't have them. It's about winning. It is the map game.

​I think, there's plenty of issues and good things about Chaos.

​But the popularity of the big 3 over more distinct groups is just math. Fitting in, and writing and creating stuff for the big 3 is just easier, and people are lazy. So, those big sandbox groups are always going to be titans.

 

[Judah Lesan]

[member="Kei Raxis"]

You’re maybe partly accurate. The TSE was the result of the merging of two competing Sith Factions. After the one Sith fell apart the map didn’t have a Sith faction for a good while in Chaos terms.

The SJO relocated with nomad as a result and after many struggles in leadership, and nearly dying because of them, they rebuilt from the ground up.

The CIS has always been a machine built on expansion and in its early days the admins were all hounding for posts. There are even seasons where the Admins still hound staff for posts and activity which in turn gets passed down.

I think the real issue is something I’ve been watching for the last year. We do not have the member base we did back even 2 years ago. The board has less members therefore factions are harder. The other issue... take CA for example. That’s niche. The fact they even have a major faction is awesome!! With the number of attempts I’ve seen and even participated in, Thorne has done what others didn’t. Niche writing will always lose interest faster. Been my experience anyway.

What will change the Big 3? More ideas, creative factions with leaders that are willing to recruit, sell their pitch, and hound for posts in the early days. Right now the map is begging for fresh ideas, so let’s give the map something fun!!

 

[Mauda]

I'll try and offer a balanced opinion coming from a 16 year old who's been here for 4 months and has zero experience with SWRP History aside from what I've read of Lore.

I like to think of the Faction System as basically the same as real-world Business. It's tough, it's ruthless, and never is it a short-term effort. Those who start a business with the goal of it being something big and influential know that their efforts need to compound over an inevitably long time. If they don't make efforts with this in mind, they will fail. I started a Clothes Brand LITERALLY on a whim. It was a joke. And evidently a poor one because has it succeeded? lmao don't even need to answer that one.

When it comes to the Faction System specifically, it really works like any Market. The Big Three have the largest percentage shares. This draws the majority of audience and makes Entry Cost high for beginners, They dominate the market and are each other's rivals, with potential rivalry from outside having a very low probability. They have undoubtedly worked hard to get to their positions. Yes, TSE had a jumpstart and the SJO entered a quiet market, giving them an advantage at the time, but they have put in the necessary effort to grow and maintain their positions. There's no Nepotism involved so I can't say there's unfair growth.

When it comes to new factions, perhaps what [member="Kei Raxis"] is pointing out is something similar to the pre-2010's Space Industry. When SpaceX was just coming into the Market, it was dominated by the Big Three; NASA, Lockheed Martin, United Launch Alliance. It was dominated by the Government, making Private Endeavours almost suicide. Of course Elon Musk identified this, stated it was wildly unfair to any beginner Private Agencies and Sued NASA for it several times.

Now I'm not saying abuse Carnifex, Metus and Vaashe with DM's and Legal Action. This isn't the Space Industry. But what SpaceX did was be Unique. This applies to any Business (Or in this case Business-Like) Endeavour. Being Risque, Loud and offering things nobody else does works out for the majority.

TL/DR: It's hard work and having the Market dominated by TSE, CIS, SJO makes entry very difficult, but like any business, a growing faction needs to be unique, have opportunity for interesting stories and an active leadership. These things, along with longterm hard work, I think, will inevitably see the success of a Faction regardless of the Majority Share being in the Three.

So I agree with Kei in that it is dominated by the Long-Standing trio, but how would it be in a real Galaxy? Very similar. And in any reality, it would be hard work to grow. Minor Factions have the ability, they just need something special, and a lot of work.

 

[Matt the Radar Tech]

I don't think anyone is begrudging status or achievements.

I believe [member="Judah Lesan"] hit the nail on the head, it seems to be down to a limited player count (thus, limited membership to go around) and niche versus more mainstream faction types. A Jedi faction will always be more popular than a Chiss one (99% of the time), for example.

Presently, CA is working at establishing a solid core group, which we've more or less established. Would we like more members to give us a shot? Definitely! We want to be one of the few Non-Force focused factions in the community, but hopefully that will happen in time. If not, if we remain small and niche, well perhaps we can just welcome those few individuals who decide to come our way and keep slow burning.

Either way, there's some good advice to consider.

[member="Kei Raxis"]

 

[Dracken Pryce]

The SJO was around at a time where there was only like four major factions and therefore also had a way easier time of it because all the major factions were a lot smaller.

This is a little disingenuous. The Silver Jedi were formed from a IC and OOC schism from the original Republic faction during a time when TSE, Republic, Mandalorians, and CIS were all big and powerful factions, leaving the Silvers with very few and mostly disgruntled writers and even less space in iconic locations and were nearly snuffed out IC and OOC, barely surviving after a move and redoubling their own efforts. If there was anyone from the big three that have earned their place on the map its the Silver Jedi.

And while I love the CIS, they also had the same groundwork as the current Sith Empire as they were also a faction back in the early days and built off of a foundation as well. Its going to take a lot of work, because as people have said here...Our member base as a whole is not where it used to be and I think when you say writers you mean characters because I'm pretty sure we don't have 300 writers to the SITE let alone 300 per big 3 faction. So come...work with me and we will Make Corellia one of the newest biggest factions on the board....

 

[Kay-Larr]

Been around for a while. Took one little planet (Commenor) and turned it into something to be proud of. 13 months of being major and not a single invasion! It wasn't because we were boring or just due to not being a violent group, moreso it was due to IC politics, backdeals and trade agreements. My members helped out in invasions, even with their same characters and that was fine But as [member="Kei Raxis"] pointed out, we lost activity levels to a point that made our staff overworked and uncomfortable. We weren't recalled, but feared that day would come, so we dropped out of the bigger map game after a vote by the members.

People have moved on since then, including myself and I recognize that it's all part of the game.

Now I'm starting over with a new faction as people do, with the hope to go major in the future. Does that make me upset for having to start all over? Not in the slightest! It's a great challenge and I'm all up for it. Already we have a great big plot in the works which will include so many of the other factions both big and small.

I'm not a graphics person, I post mostly from my phone, so I can't offer up some of the goodies that the photoshop wizards can as rewards. But there are subs to make that can be just as good and much easier to do. I also have other ideas that I'll disclose later.

Point is, running a faction no matter the size or member base is tough. It's not for everyone. But there are a lot of great people here that help eachother out and that's what makes it fun. Not every idea works, not every plan is a good one. But we learn from our mistakes and grow

The map changes greatly from year to year. The top major factions come and go. Nothing lasts forever. I look forward to seeing what comes next!

 

[Jsc]

They're drawn to these big three because they look intimidating, they have massive 300+ writer playerbases and they're absolutely massive.

1. Look intimidating
2. Have writers
3. Be massive

These are all killer ways to express success as a faction. Especially from the outside looking in. However, lets talk about the inverse. Being on the inside looking out.

1. Leadership
2. Get new writers
3. Understanding your memberbase's time commitment, expectations, and goals

If you are on the inside looking out, these can be some of your biggest concerns. In fact. If you give me all three of those things I will build you a faction that never dies. And. If you build a system that gives your faction all of these things? It will live forever.

How do you and your 20 writer team compete with a faction that's got 5x, sometimes 10x more hexes than you and at least 10x the writers?

Leadership. Get new writers. Understand your memberbase's time commitments, expectations, and goals. Do this and you will see the path.

 

[GhostOfProtocol]

[member="Jay Scott Clark"]

I don't disagree.

However, like I said. When new writers are being drawn to these bigger factions, as they clearly are through the conversations I've had with them, it's really difficult to get new writers. You can't do much without new writers coming in but you can't get new writers while they're being drawn to bigger factions.

Catch-22?

 

[Jsc]

[member="Kei Raxis"]

Kay.

So now we're kinda touching on just a real world theme here. Like, how do you make it in YouTube? All the viewership is watching and being drawn to bigger channels? Or. How do you make it in the car industry, Tesla? Or. How do you be a responsible monopoly Facebook?

See what I'm saying.

And no. I'm not answering that.

 

[Tefka]

Nobody’s on top forever. I’m pretty happy we have a food chain, it’s pretty organic. And it keeps corruption mostly in check - you don’t get to stay on top for long if you’re an nerf herder to your members.

Personally, I’ve led strong factions, weak factions, etc. It’s all different experiences and it’s definitely all fun. And the best part about it is, there’s no guiding hand. We joke about Staff factions, as Staff is the only entity that has the authority to impact a Major Faction, but I’ve been making sure for YEARS that we have minimal impact outside of cleaning up inactives and squatters.

It’s totally up to you.

From the newest member to the oldest, all of you have been given the same chances and opportunities.

If factions are succeeding, it’s because their leaders are active and doing good jobs at engaging their micro-communities. I won’t hate on that, and I definitely won’t impact that, unless some idiot breaks a General Rule that forces my hand.

Have fun and enjoy your Chaos, Staff isn’t interested in controlling it.

 

[Atlas Drake]

Everyone just wants to be on top of the pyramid, meanwhile I'm sitting here thinking there's plenty of room down here in the middle of the pack.

I used to think that lowering the major faction membership part of the application requirement was a bad thing, that it fractured us into this hodge podge of big and small. Don't get along with your group? Screw off and go make your own faction. Now though, I recognize the value in screwing off. Be the change you want to see in the map, everything that stands before you was built by a team of people who put in a lot of hard work. None of them coasted.

Perhaps you should reevaluate what you mean when you say 'rewards'. Are some bling ships and more planets to play on a more rewarding experience than the type of character interactions a faction like say ORC provides? I agree that things have gotten more insular, but I'm not sure you're diagnosing the correct cause.

 

[Zef Halo]

[member="Atlas Drake"] on point.

Different people, different tastes. TSE, CIS and SJO are certainly the top three, yeah but I like it the most when I am writing raccoon spacers which is a theme/outlet ORC provides. Nine times out of ten when I am unsure what I want to write, ORC will always have something that will interest me and it hasn't got anything to do with big member numbers, activity and etc.

Additionally, new players might branch out of the big three when they settle on Chaos. The big three just provide a bigger community that makes it, usually, easier to settle in quicker.

Acknowledge your niche and focus on it or as she put it:

tl;dr look to your own house first.

 

[Quietus]

For those of us that have been here from what would be considered the "start" of the forum, factions are cyclical.

There will always be about three BIG factions on the forum at any given time. That seems to be the extent of what the forum can handle given memberbase and activity levels. The three BIG factions won't be around forever. Think they will? Look at the history of the BIG factions on Chaos - every single one of them came to an end eventually, even if that meant a lifespan of several years. Everyone thought One Sith would last forever. Everyone thought the Protectorate would last forever. Everyone thought the Galactic Republic would last forever.

Every single one of them expired at some point and gave way to newer BIG factions.

Fads for what's hot in RP at any given time come and go. Muses for various writers come and go. Major characters come and go (unless you're [member="Darth Carnifex"] ). Big factions come and go.

Ride the cycle, friends.