Feedback Factions (And How to Kill Them)

[Ra Vizsla]

Now you're becoming un-detached, that's the spirit.

I've said this before, but in my time, "Invasion Season" was not the time to make big sweeping changes - but it is the time to make big sweeping proposals, because everyone's hyped for the community and our problems bubble to the surface so we all excitedly talk about them.

I would not say discussing them with me in a debate-ridden thread is a good way to go though. I also wouldn't suggest making a new suggestion thread right now, but... maybe you should? I dunno, Site Staff seems to be keeping up, but you never know what might get lost in translation.

You would definitely want to make new proposals as new threads, though. Just not sure on the most effective timing to get it the most exposure and not get lost in the "Chaos".

 

[Ra Vizsla]

I don't agree. I think getting a little heated, as long as we're mostly respectful and staying inside the lines, could do a lot of people some good.

Down with this archaic "koombaye PC everyone needs to smile more talk less" culture. Shame on you, Baby Yoda.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

I would not say discussing them with me in a debate-ridden thread is a good way to go though. I also wouldn't suggest making a new suggestion thread right now, but... maybe you should? I dunno, Site Staff seems to be keeping up, but you never know what might get lost in translation.

I have never found a successful way to discuss anything with you we disagreed on without you feeling personally attacked and lashing out. Eventually I just decided to avoid you altogether. Maybe that's a problem with the way I approach things. Maybe people assume that because I'm blunt I think I have everything completely figured. I could be completely off base here for all I know.

The last time I came to the suggestions thread with a feedback proposal I worked on with someone it was 'maybe the dominion treadmill isn't healthy for the site' and I was laughed out of the subforum along with the member (now site admin) who posted it. Suggestions are where proposals go to die if they pose even a potential risk to those who benefit from the way things currently are.

 

[Ra Vizsla]

Bro don't feign my clapbacks at me feeling personally attacked and lashing out.

I just clapback. It's just who I am. If you bring heat, I bring fire. We gonna go a few rounds. I don't dislike you for it, lol. Hell, we might even get somewhere - and if we do, it will have all been worth it.

Workshop your proposals some. But don't let it get you down if they don't succeed.

Rage, rage, rage back against the machine.

 

[Enlil]

I'll impart some of my new zen, because I've really enjoyed finding it recently.

You learn who is worthwhile to invest time and energy in by how much time and energy they invest in you. You start to learn, when you withdraw, who actively seeks you out to know you're okay. You also learn to whom you were a tool, and once you've made yourself difficult to utilize, who gives up on trying to use you.

The beautiful thing about coming to terms with your mistakes and wasted time is understanding that they do not weigh you down. You can move forward from them. You can forge ahead on a new path, meet new people, learn new things, and you find that your only real limiter is yourself.

However Chaos decides to proceed, it's the mentalities of people that actually matter. People will adapt to rules and to changes. Be accountable to yourself, because no one else is going to be held accountable.

Are there going to be great rule changes and suggestions moving forward? Absolutely. But if the underlying angst remains, what changes?

Suggestions are where proposals go to die if they pose even a potential risk to those who benefit from the way things currently are.

We've all been watching. We're not blind. We know who's actually a neutral party, and who's got a horse in which race.

That's a major impetus for said withdrawal.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

Ra Vizsla

Not everyone takes everything said on the internet in the same way. Maybe you're being honest and you really do just roast people as a matter of course. But you not disliking me is complete news to me. I wonder how many other people feel the same way. Maybe it has something to do with you saying 'I don't respect your opinions'. You can disagree with me all you want, but hot air? Great burn, bro.

 

[Ra Vizsla]

K Kaine Australis

I don't subscribe to this AOC vs CIS mentality, and you won't convince me to.

Also, I don't subscribe to being comfortable.

 

[Ra Vizsla]

Zark San Tekka

I really want you to understand this more than anything so far.

If I didn't like you, I wouldn't be entertaining this derailed discussion. I'm perfectly fine with walking away and spending my time on other things than sitting in this thread lobbing pot shots for reacts.

I'm here for the same reason I've ever showed up to Chaos's feedback forum, even when I was Head Admin - I care about Chaos's future. I want to discuss Chaos's future.

And if you do too, then I don't give a flying tuck about our personal grievances.

Edit: Chaos is my horse, person above asking who backs what horse in a deeply dramatic manner.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

Ra Vizsla

Your point about this wandering off topic and being probably unproductive is taken. I did not mean to turn this into a soap box against the inadequacies of site staff. I know you guys care about the health of the community too, of course I know that. I just sincerely believe that this is not something that will ever be solved with community policing and putting our best feet forward. The community needs to decide, should major factions be at risk? Or should they be safe? Right now as long as you have a few hexes under your belt you are very, very safe. The dominion multiplier that is flashpoints is not exactly a silver bullet for that problem.

 

[Enlil]

Tefka

Not the point of contention I was agreeing with, but one I fully acknowledge. I've never had a problem with your riding, Tef. Keep on keeping on.

 

[Ra Vizsla]

Sorry Enlil , I'm just throwing hands at anything that moves at this point

 

[WolfMortum]

I'm not going to touch any of what's been said so far, other than to say that I had believed up until recently that were a Capital Hex to be taken, the Major Faction would be forced to go minor. It's a ridiculous how long it took me to realize this wasn't the case.

To be quite honest, I wouldn't mind it.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

I haven't and won't read all of this thread. But I agree with the general view that Major Factions should die easier.

I did see one thing Tefka said, about getting heated. I think something Chaos needs is for people to actually be honest with each other. Because nobody really is, every single Faction Owner when talking to another is thinking 5 things and saying 1. And as mostly people tend to follow the leader, that spreads throughout the community.

So lets start with some honesty;

I think Chaos has been getting better. But its had absolutely nothing to do with old, large and stagnant Factions. 2018-19 were some of the most boring and uneventuful years for Chaos. If your major factions contribution to Chaos can't be felt outside of your Faction, you're doing it wrong. Large Factions just become Vacuums for new writers and then you never see them again cause they're sucked into endless training and social threads.

I see newer Factions like the NIO/GA ect as a right step forward. People who want collaboration and realise the story is bigger than their ego.

I wouldn't count myself as a dishonest person, but I think the problem isn't just staff or rules or the community. Because, lets remind ourselves that the staff and the rules they make are just a part of the community that is actually in charge, not separate from it. When you say the memberbase is the problem, you're right. The staff is part of that base, and is part of the problem too. Major Factions exist for too long? Maybe. If only we could guide things by a narrative, but that rarely happens.

And its evidenced by the fact as Lisbot said, SJO ect have all changed plenty of times. Refilling the bucket instead of knowing when to let it die. Things are best when they end when there is still some juice left in the tank and that rarely ever happens on the large scale that the Map Game pretends to offer.

Regular map wipes are stupid. Why? because we need agency for the member, the 'player' not just a arbitrary reset. The Map Game can't really work as a high risk high reward GAME if one side can't lose definitively. Watch any competitive tournament series or just play an online game, one side doesn't lose because they get tired. Its assuredly impossible to avoid people getting angry and shit, that stuff happens but they lose because the other team won. Not because they could out-last them or have more folks.

Ryv brought up earlier that the TSE is getting killed by burnout. And the response was 'well if you know its wrong then stop'. Its not wrong to want to kill another Faction if your narrative precludes it, its not wrong for a Major Faction to lose and die even if its members don't decide it. What is wrong is the burnout. The POV that losing is losing what you value. Because, losing a Major Faction shouldn't be what is valued. But because of how Chaos works, how nobody is honest with one and other, that divide exists and its a microcosm of losing or being defeated by THEM. Which, is not how it should be. Its not you or I beaten by them, its the CIS defeated by the AoC or the NIO defeated by the TSE rather than writers beating each other.

When I made the Bryn'adûl, I set out with the plan of trying to change Chaos and make it a more collaborative space. How did I plan to do that? To kill other Major Factions before killing my own - that's it in a nutshell. To be an existential threat that then dies off at the end of the day, if I wanted to do something like that; it could take years with our current system. I wanted to contribute to Chaos, by doing my thing. But, say if we suddenly changed our minds the Bryn could live on past its expiration date for years just because. That's a problem with the system in place because the system is just a design put in place by people in the community that therefore effects the mentality of the community.

I apologise if this is rambling, but I think you're left with two options.

1. Create a rule change that makes your material values [hexes, doms, factions] LESS valued by making them easier to kill or create or complete, thusly stopping people from clinging so tightly. Which in turn will hopefully make a community where it is okay to agree to lose for the sake of an epic collaborative narrative.

2. Make changes so we can destroy other Majors whether they like or not in a way that doesn't require everyone and their grandmother repeatedly invading them.

Either way, Factions should die quicker and people should care less. It ain't worth crying over.

 

[Darth Metus]

CIS complained about the treatment and being driven to burnout.

K Kaine Australis

Our only complaint was the inability to swing back - which is something that was never denied to the UCM. We're fine with the game, AoC can keep coming, you won't hear a burnout complaint from us.

 

[Haastal Haran]

K Kaine Australis

There is one difference. We've always abdicated for the route of fairness, the route of if you invade, you can be invaded.

 

[Darth Metus]

K Kaine Australis

I'm not going to derail the thread much further on this - but to keep it brief, this wasn't an issue of "aw man, this doesn't benefit us, change the rules!"

This was something that could potentially affect every faction. It was a solid meta (most effective tool(s) available), made through an unintentional state of the rules.

If the rule had remained the same, then that would have been the sandbox and we'd have rolled with it. Two totally separate animals fam, but I appreciate that I'm on your mind <3

 

[Enlil]

I think you mean advocated, not abdicated.

Unless you're planning on giving your throne away, Haastal Haran

 

[Haastal Haran]

I think you mean advocated, not abdicated.

Unless you're planning on giving your throne away, Haastal Haran

You know what I mean lol.

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

Man, if only you could dom towards that hex until you could invade, or do a nomad and give us half a hug. It was never an issue of being unable to hit back, only unwillingness to put any actual effort into it.

 

[Gerwald Lechner]

Scherezade deWinter

The only faction that it wouldn’t take about a year to reach your hex is the EE. Sure galactic nomad, but that’s an out of character move that ignores the story and lore any faction builds just to make a hit. This suggests that a faction wants to take you out.

There is not one faction that had the option of actually counter invading, a point you made to me a few times when you told me you wanted to make this faction while you were still part of the CIS. Let’s not pretend you didn’t know what you were doing when you did it.

As is seen here.

From this post alone it is clear you’re missing the point of this whole thing. Rather than see there was a way for other factions to pop up and abuse this, you seem to be taking this a personal slight which it is not.

That being said no one is going to deny that this came about because of current events. Rule changes happen, and have happened, because someone does something that points out a flaw in the rules. What I do disagree with is the notion that this was done to harm you or invalidate your work. The change has to do with a loophole, not the AOC and the CIS.

I apologize for bringing that up. It's not my intent to provoke you. But, we've been holding our tongues on the crux of the issue for a while now.