Shame

[Lorn Reingard]

Shame on you, shame on me, shame on us.

I've taken the night to really think about it, to digest it. And I write this knowing I damn well have been an nerf herder and part of the problem, so before you keyboard warriors fire it up and crack your knuckles, just read everything.

I know I haven't been here long, but I have never been so appalled by the culture then I was yesterday reading these suggestion threads. When did bullying and belittling become okay here? Weren't we just warned about getting rid of the salt around here? Just because you white knight and take the side of what staff has decided, doesn't mean you can talk down to people and treat them like that. "Well we didn't do anything wrong..." You know damn well who you are and what you are doing. Jumping down peoples throats for trying to have civil discourse, for proposing new ideas, for trying to improve the culture. You in your echochambers where you sit on discord and make fun of people, talk shit about your so called friends, make images to make fun of fellow writers, you know who you are. Why is this okay? Why not if you disagree, just state why in a nice way and move on?

Why do you have to cut the head off of someone trying to do better... replying with mocking posts, ganging up with your friends and ha-ha reacting those you disagree with. Would you like this if this happened to you? Is this behavior you would teach your kids is okay? You may not think it a big deal, but it is beyond disheartening. This is why people do not want to write with certain people. Why new writers have to navigate coming in and being told "oh don't write with this person, they suck". Shame on you. Those of you who have been here long enough and know how to circumvent the rules, how to exactly word it IC so your OOC slight wont be taken wrong by staff.

I encourage everyone to step back for a minute. Away from discord, away from VC, away from those they hang around every day and truly think about what you are gossiping about or posting to see how it is making people feel. If there truly is an issue and you feel slighted, communicate that with the person you are upset with. If they are unwilling to listen, go to staff for advice. But my word I am so damn ashamed of us for yesterday. Let people be heard, let them feel seen, let them feel respected. You are not better than them. You are not above them. We are all humans in this world, in this hobby, trying to find a little fun and escapism. Just think about that before you try and belittle someone.

Now I don't intend for this to go into a full on blame discussion where we all go around in circles and nothing gets fixed. You can go to your back rooms and keep talking shit about me, I don't really care. But something needed to be said for those who are scared to have their voice heard in these things. Those who are trying to remain respectful to everyone and not get ostracized by the loud few of you.

So I will leave you with this. And hopefully you can take something positive from it, take some encouragement to be better and do what we are all here for. Hopefully by providing some vulnerability, you all will feel comfortable to do so as well.

I was having a really rough time these last few weeks. Invasions are a monster from a coordinating standpoint. Making sure everyone is happy, having fun. No one is beefing for random reasons, we are all staying civil, etc. It was well and truly wearing on me. I was so dejected and tired of it all. But I had some good friends approach me and put it into perspective. We all shared and I came out of it with some perspective, and it honest to god made me feel better instantly.

The questions were simple: Why do you love Star Wars? Why are you here?

We shared how we got into it. What it meant to us. What it has provided for us. And how it has improved our lives. I came out of it feeling such an appreciation for this hobby and connected to those fellow writers who shared with me.

I will share mine. If you feel so invested to do so, please do, I would love to hear. If you are just sitting here rolling your eyes, go away.

For me, it came in a time of my life when I desperately needed an escape. I was young enough during the prequels for all of the toys and games to hit at a formative point in my life. It was pure wonder for me. Jedi vs Sith. Rebels vs. Empire. Republic vs Federation. Good vs Evil. A big wide galaxy to explore and make up my own stories. I share this little anecdote often, especially when it comes to bullies. I had a terrible home life, very abusive, often moving, I wanted to get out of the house and away from them any chance I could. So I took to the neighborhoods with my toy lightsabers, pretending I was a Jedi fighting in the battle of Geonosis. Now you can imagine how crazy that looked to others. I was bullied often in elementary and middle school for using my imagination and escaping this way. But I found nothing wrong with it? What was I doing wrong? I was having fun. Much like we all are here. I didn't deserve to be belittled just because I found something fun that other people didn't.

Anyways, off on a tangent. But I often credit Star Wars for saving my life, still saving my life. When I was in deep dark places, places of serious depression, Star Wars was always there to fuel my imagination and help me escape. I would fire up a game, KOTOR, Jedi Outcast games, SWG, and would lose myself for hours instead of sitting with those terrible situations and those dark thoughts. I feel in love with characters, with telling stories, with creating drama. Finding ways to find little bits of myself in characters so I could better understand who I was in this world. To this day, even though I feel like i've created a great life for myself, its still here for me in the happy times. I get to come on here and share great stories with people all over the world who all have different perspectives. It's still my escape, and I will always be thankful for that.

One of the people who shared with me shared how they have seen their love being passed down to their children. How they sit there and watch all the silly cartoons and they ask them questions, or get shocked when something big happens. They said it choked them up realizing that they get to pass this love down and I cant help but get excited that when I do have children i'll get to do the same.

So I encourage you, take some positivity from this. Share if you feel so inclined. Look a bit inside to see how we all can do better.

 

[Novac Lyrikal]

"This is why people do not want to write with certain people. Why new writers have to navigate coming in and being told "oh don't write with this person, they suck"."

"But something needed to be said for those who are scared to have their voice heard in these things. Those who are trying to remain respectful to everyone and not get ostracized by the loud few of you."

yes. just yes.

honestly as I'm writing this I'm thinking to myself "should i really post do? should i really? will i get in trouble? will people be mad at me?" and part of me is screaming not to.

So...I'll start with, I love it here, so much. I've been having such a amazing time here I really have. I've met great people who I love rping with.

I never thought i would be writing let alone doing roleplay, yet here i am. I've only been here for 6ish months but yet even I'm noticing stuff. To me that's saying something.

I've noticed when people try to have serious discussions people will just joke, while yes people can say and post what they want, it just looks and feels plain rude.

I mentioned some stuff in my post in the other discussion. and also yes I know we have a town hall coming up but i physically cant be there, my life is shit right now so i in no way can make it to that, someone record it or something(joking).

Now I've been told some things about people but i've also been told "im not saying dont write with them." and that i like. just know some general stuff but still being free to write with them. you can have problems with people, you can not want to write with people. if anything thats health if you know who you like and dont like. and you can vent or say experiences as long as your not trying to be mean.

To me, i dont care what someone says, i'll still give someone a chance. If i have a bad experience, i move on.

"Those who are trying to remain respectful to everyone and not get ostracized by the loud few of you." now thats a big thing. im probably a people pleaser i guess. i mean i dont want to make anyone mad or annoyed here. i want to write with people have fun. i wont let others be the ones to tell me yea their ok to write with, no their not ok to write with. if someone tells me they had a bad time with someone, but their not mean about it i might put that in the back of my mind but still go ahead and find out for myself. but if someone says they have a good time writing with someone then im 100% gonna take that lol, like Corazona von Ascania (sorry for the tag), i've talked to people about my thread where i wrote with her and another person and how i had a great time.

side note that was actually my 1st combat, kinda, i had 2 going at once. but thats one of the only pvp's i've gotten to finish, and novac got a scar on his bottom left arm from it. other wias with my mando in the invasion.

anyway, but I've talked about that to others and their like "oh yea she's great," stuff like that I'll take and be like "oh nice, maybe I'll write with them again."

but if they talked about a bad experience I'll just think "ok, will keep that in mind but I'm still gonna try writing with them. I'll find out myself"

oops i just realized how much I've repeated myself. I'm sorry i haven't taken my adhd meds yet, so sorry for that lol

Why do you love Star Wars? Why are you here?

Well, a few reasons. Don't look at novacs items lol. i adore the droids, cant get enough of em. like i made a new character whos main thing is manufacturing so i have a character i can say made these droids for factory, which i have about 50 images saved of things i want to make droids lol.

But also the aliens, i mean look at my characters, not a human or near human in sight, i love how weird and wacky and crazy and cool and amazing some species can look.

The force and lightsabers of course to. I grew up loving magic stuff like harry potter, magic tree house, fantasy stuff like uh..eragon or whatever it was called idk i forget. anyway point is, seeing all these cool things also got me.

As to why I'm here. dont know. half joking. I have no idea why i joined this site. like i said, never was into writing or rp. yet i got hooked, i loved it. then i started looking at like factory and seeing how much interesting stuff you can do, same with codex(tho I'm not good at writing or coming up with lore or what not, even though I'm working on a new planet, sentients for said planet, creatures for it. and also redoing my planet i already have and giving it a bunch of creatures)

then i started reading some posts, started to rp, loved it.

I feel I may have gotten away from the point a bit my bad.

 

[Connel Vanagor]

There's an old Tom Selleck movie called "Mr. Baseball"... he said a line that is very apropo... that I want to amend here.

"Roleplay is a game... games are meant to be fun..."

 

[Viktor Bra'lor]

Appreciate that being said...as someone that was an old school Internet troll, but has changed and trying to change. Being pretty much new and changing, I haven't wanted to rock the boat much. I've been burned out for years, but with AI and world building with it I've found a small spark but admit not many agree with my views of Star Wars and I'm trying to find a way to work in and adapt. Yes, I admit Forum's have never been my thing but this seems to be one of the real places actually writing, just so many threads my ADHD and Anxiety are overwhelmed I must admit. That and so out of practice I'm kind of admittedly nervous to post.
And Star Wars players have NEVER been some of the "nicest" and actually welcoming of the franchises I'll admit that.

 

[Joy]

The Salt hasn't been dissolved. Hopefully the Town Hall meeting next weekend will start getting rid of it.

 

[Tefka]

what the hell are you people talking about

 

[Lily Decoria]

So,

We had this discussion, which feels to me a very targeted discussion after the TSC won the Humbarine invasion.

We had this discussion, which had to be locked by staff and from my perspective held some resentment after the Humbarine invasion.

We had this discussion, and this discussion after the Iron Covenant lost the Abregado-rae invasion. Possible coincidence again, sure but in my opinion doesn't feel like it was.

Then same day the THR loses the Thyferra invasion we have this discussion, this discussion and this discussion. These feel all very upfront about the fact that THR lost the invasion and some are unhappy about it.

To me, they all tread very similar issues, they are all after invasions and they all feel very pointed on the fact that people were not happy with the result they were given.

This has all happened since June. So we are treading over topics previously discussed and answers already given. After a certain time, you just feel like your genuine advice and thoughts fall on deaf ears so you decide to meme and take the topic far less serious. Because we shouldn't be having post-invasion discussions about being unhappy with the results with every invasion.

In my opinion, we got 7 different discussion threads, where (whether the original writer meant to express it or not) saltiness is being fostered. Three of those threads happened yesterday.

I am personally fed up of seeing post-invasion threads where people are clearly wanting to demand changes to ensure that they win their next invasion instead of taking the personal time to reflect, introspect and decide how they could approach things different. Losing isn't fun, I get that but I feel like people focus so much on that aspect that they don't realise they are spoiling things.

You can have a great time still, you can write amazing stories still and your character can continue doing things. I've had my character go through personal duel losses while the faction won in general because the personal growth IC felt far more important than a scoreboard. And I just feel lately some people focus on the scoreboard.

So, yeah, things might have gotten more heated yesterday. That might have greatly upset some. But I feel like you can't just isolate this to yesterday's actions, and repeatedly doing this not long after invasion results went against your side or the side your friends were writing on. It tears down the hard work people put into the invasion and won, it is inadvertently saying they were not good enough and that comes across as rude and people will retaliate to that feeling.

 

[Lorn Reingard]

So,

We had this discussion, which feels to me a very targeted discussion after the TSC won the Humbarine invasion.

We had this discussion, which had to be locked by staff and from my perspective held some resentment after the Humbarine invasion.

We had this discussion, and this discussion after the Iron Covenant lost the Abregado-rae invasion. Possible coincidence again, sure but in my opinion doesn't feel like it was.

Then same day the THR loses the Thyferra invasion we have this discussion, this discussion and this discussion. These feel all very upfront about the fact that THR lost the invasion and some are unhappy about it.

To me, they all tread very similar issues, they are all after invasions and they all feel very pointed on the fact that people were not happy with the result they were given.

This has all happened since June. So we are treading over topics previously discussed and answers already given. After a certain time, you just feel like your genuine advice and thoughts fall on deaf ears so you decide to meme and take the topic far less serious. Because we shouldn't be having post-invasion discussions about being unhappy with the results with every invasion.

In my opinion, we got 7 different discussion threads, where (whether the original writer meant to express it or not) saltiness is being fostered. Three of those threads happened yesterday.

I am personally fed up of seeing post-invasion threads where people are clearly wanting to demand changes to ensure that they win their next invasion instead of taking the personal time to reflect, introspect and decide how they could approach things different. Losing isn't fun, I get that but I feel like people focus so much on that aspect that they don't realise they are spoiling things.

You can have a great time still, you can write amazing stories still and your character can continue doing things. I've had my character go through personal duel losses while the faction won in general because the personal growth IC felt far more important than a scoreboard. And I just feel lately some people focus on the scoreboard.

So, yeah, things might have gotten more heated yesterday. That might have greatly upset some. But I feel like you can't just isolate this to yesterday's actions, and repeatedly doing this not long after invasion results went against your side or the side your friends were writing on. It tears down the hard work people put into the invasion and won, it is inadvertently saying they were not good enough and that comes across as rude and people will retaliate to that feeling.

Don't misconstrue this. We lost fair and square. There was a great story told. Stro and his team did fantastic. This has nothing to do with staff or staff judgement and all to do with everyone's behavior following it. But not even following it, it exists whether there are invasions or not.

 

[Joy]

Not to mention that all three threads that were posted yesterday were submitted by two people who aren't members of the High Republic.

 

[Aurelian of Vandemar]

This is absolutely not about some sour losers wanting to get back at someone - it is genuine disgust on the behaviour, tone and ganging up of some folks to purposefully annoy, derail, undermine or shut down an equal desiring to say their piece on an ongoing discussion. It is not right, it is quite frankly horrible that it has happened not in one thread only.

Treating others as you want to be treated. Basic human decency. Not shifting blame to some win or lose drama.

 

[Tefka]

so just ignore these people or report them to staff if they're firestarting/being toxic.

Bringing attention to it on this level, if this is one of the threads trying to combat drama posting, is just fanning the flames.

 

[Tefka]

also i'm being told the original guy who started drama posting didn't even write in the Invasion is that true

 

[Gerwald Lechner]

Not to mention that all three threads that were posted yesterday were submitted by two people who aren't members of the High Republic.

That doesn't dismiss the validity of the fact it happened on the heels of an invasion announcement... To be fair the fact they did not write in the invasion and/or are not part of the HR should probably lean more toward pointing out the thread did not need to be started at all.

It was definitely designed to stir the pot... and too many people played into it rather than hitting that big fat ignore button

 

[Novac Lyrikal]

I am personally fed up of seeing post-invasion threads where people are clearly wanting to demand changes to ensure that they win their next invasion instead of taking the personal time to reflect, introspect and decide how they could approach things different.

i wouldn't say its salt, for some in those posts yea. but i think its just more...how do i put it uh..kinda just seeing the problem? or noticing it since a invasion or whatnot just happened. like for them i mean, they see a problem.

dont get me wrong some can be salty of course. but like for me? im jsut saying what i see while trying to be civil and nice about it

 

[Soundwave]

Honestly I was going to wait till the Town Hall to bring this up, but mentioning it here serves just as well. If I had been a new member looking to join Chaos, untouched by the bias of members and the ongoing drama of the site, I would have taken one look at those threads and immediately turned to look elsewhere.

I have been here for nearly a decade by this point and have seen my fair share of salt and drama, partaken in said salt and drama, but it has become increasingly painful to have to read through some of the comments made by veteran members of the community. Have I had my own share of frustrations and resentments? Absolutely, and I think it would be unreasonable to assume that no one hasn't. But we keep it to ourselves and still remain respectful to each other, even if we have our differences with one another. We keep coming back, because Star Wars and writing is what we love. It's what makes Chaos appealing. But it gets hard to enjoy either when you look at some of the OOC behavior and start to get second hand stress/embarrassment from reading through the forum you frequent on a daily basis, because some of you still have no idea how to distinguish IC hate from OOC hate.

Don't make this conversation about invasions, we're better than to try and place the blame on something it's not about. Lorn Reingard has made it very clear in his initial statement that it's about the tone and behavior we express in public when people are asking for genuine feedback and discussion and having it get belittled by comments made to derail the topic. Don't perpetuate that here.

I would like to point out that the disregard of the general rules / Major Faction Owner Code of Conduct in the threads should have been enough of an overstep on the parts of many comments made in these suggestion/discussion threads to warrant actionable enforcement of the rules or at least a stern slap on the wrist, but instead it was just repeated in discussion after discussion thread. The rules are there to be applied to everyone, and nobody should feel so compelled to think that they are above them.

You want to be passive aggressive towards people? Keep it to your Discord DMs with your friends in your backrooms, don't air it out in public, you aren't being funny or slick about it, and it takes less than a second of reading comprehension to see it and make that distinction. The snide comments do not do you any favors nor does it boost your public image. If anything it makes people think less of you. If you have nothing productive or constructive to contribute to the conversation/discussion, don't post. You've said your two cents? Leave it at that and move on while everyone else continues. These are discussions. You are old enough to know and make the distinction of what constitutes as acceptable, and if you can't make that distinction, I strongly advise you don't participate. Some people have trouble distinguishing tone through text, but there are a good many of you who know damn well that your text comes off as abrasive and/or hostile.

Come on people, a good majority of us are well past the high school phase of our lives. You know when it's appropriate to joke and when it's inappropriate. We are here to write fun collaborative stories, not to run popularity contests and demonize one another. I want to come to Chaos to write and share my enjoyment of Star Wars with equally enthusiastic people.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

I think this has run its course, and there's nothing more to be gained from it.