Discussion Do Force Powers feel less compelling the more grandoise they become?

[Alan]

This is moreso an observation than a dig, but it feels like in every invasion the past <5 years, there's some grand Force event or grand use of the Force. And I think it's become so saturated that it's hard for me to be as compelled as the moment should be, or the writer intended. Even in the biggest battles of contemporary Star Wars media, the Force is used sparingly and in moments of great change. IE, Leia ziplining back to the ship, Luke trusting the force to guide the rockets up the Death Star's butt, Bastila doing battle meditation on the Star Forge etc.

But I feel like whenever I'm reading a big-time Chaos thread, it's a lot less of that. And I want to be compelled by these instances of power, the mysticism of the force and the destructive power it can wreak (or in some cases, the boon and power of it) on those non-Jedi types. But I feel like the more often that these instances become, and the more obscure the force power, or even the more complex, the less I'm moved by the moment and the writing. Because sometimes I ask myself "Why didn't Anakin, or Obi-Wan do that?" if they were supposedly the most powerful and well-trained Jedi ever etc.

Anyone else feel that way, or am I alone in the dark here? Thanks for reading

 

[Darth Empyrean]

yeah but i like a different flavor of star wars so who's really in the right here (its me)

 

[Ala Quin]

It has been a long time observation that the Jedi I write are severely underpowered in comparison to the norm ^.^

I blame The Force Unleashed. There was no power creep before that

I don't really care. It just forces me to be more creative in keeping my characters relevant. That being said...they probably aren't. XD

 

[Alan]

yeah but i like a different flavor of star wars so who's really in the right here (its me)

elaborate plz

 

[Mellifluous Magenta]

Betteridge's law of headlines - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Alan]

Betteridge's law of headlines - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

thanks for sharing?

 

[Persephone Dashiell]

Yeah, everyone on Chaos except for a handful of force users seem to have the highest Midicholrian count ever! A Force prodigy!

Cool if that's what folks want to do, just seems boring to me. Wheres the character dev?

 

[Ronhar Tane]

Do Force Powers become less compelling the more grandiose they become? Hhhhmmm, a good question to ask, and a rather difficult one to answer. So I’ll answer it by not really answering it at all: yes and no.

Or maybe more specifically, it depends?

I’ll be honest: some of you Sith and Jedi writers are among the most impressive and skilled RPers I’ve ever come across. Your ability to create threads that remain engaging and unique is something that I haven’t seen in many places, and the fact that your RP remains so high quality despite the amount of material that you create is honestly kind of amazing. I often think that these force powers can be used as important plot devices to really nail a setting or create a powerful story that I might not see elsewhere. Kudos to you!

Then again…

How many times have we dealt with FORCE STORM or battle mediation or some monstrous beast created from unholy alchemy? It’s not that I want to rain on anyone’s parade or dictate how players choose to RP, but it does get to a point where things can get a bit predictable. It might be nice to see threads develop where such powers are used more sparingly or maybe with more severe consequences for those who use them. For example, I liked that fact that what the Sith were doing in the Humbarine thread had negative consequences that everyone was forced to consider when using such powerful force technique. Again, I don’t want to call anyone out or tell you how to play your character, I think it might just make things potentially more interesting to use such powers sparingly.

Or maybe not. I dunno, I don’t really write force sensitives!

Point is, I do think it depends, and I do think such powers can positively or negatively affect a threads development depending on how they’re used. Who’s to say we can’t have both? The more “grounded” RP alongside the fantastical. If Andor and Skeleton Crew can exist in the same canon, why not this?

Hopefully I haven’t strayed too much from the premise of the question, and I assure everyone this is not a dig at any player. You’re free to disagree or roast me if you wish. Just wanted to get my little rant out!

 

[Braze]

Alan
I get where you are coming from.

For me, I do not think the issue is big Force powers by themselves. You can do really compelling things with large-scale, unusual, or dramatic uses of the Force. The problem is usually whether the moment feels earned.

A big Force moment needs build-up, context, cost, and some kind of narrative weight behind it. If a character does something massive just because it looks cool, without showing the why or letting the story support it, then it can feel hollow. But if the groundwork is there, if the character has history with that power, if the scene gives it consequence, then I think those moments can still hit really well.

I say this as someone who does write some powerful characters, including my main character here. I am aware that, from a quick glance, some characters can look like a lot. Someone might see the powers, the history, or a single scene out of context and assume Mary Sue or power gamer. I understand why that can happen from the outside.

At the same time, I do try to write the reasoning underneath it. I try to show the limits, the losses, the consequences, and the emotional depth / form of why a character is the way they are. Braze, for example, has far more losses than wins. He is persistent and hard to keep down, but that is not the same thing as being untouchable or impossible to challenge.

I think part of the difficulty is that roleplay is collaborative, but not everyone approaches it with the same expectations. A lot of RP is written first for the writer's own enjoyment, not necessarily for an outside reader or even for the shared narrative as a whole. That is not meant as an insult; it is just a difference in purpose. Some people are writing to tell a polished story. Some people are writing to play out a moment, express their character, or chase a feeling they personally enjoy.

Because of that, RP is not always the same as a narrative story crafted for other people's enjoyment. It can become that, and when it does, I think it is really special. But it is not always what everyone at the table is aiming for.

So yes, I do agree that big Force moments can lose impact when they happen too often, or when they do not feel supported by the story. But I also think scale itself is not the enemy. The real issue is whether the moment has room for other writers, carries consequence, and feels like it belongs in the story being told.

For me, the best version of those scenes comes down to trust: giving other writers room to respond, accepting that powerful actions should still have costs, and making sure the moment serves the narrative instead of just making the character look impressive.

 

[Jonyna Si]

All this makes me think of this video.

Serious answer: The movies are the primary medium, and any subsequent media will be forced to follow it's aestetic.

The simple answer is that the movies are limited by budget. If they had the budget to make Anakin do half the shit jedi and sith do on Chaos? Yeah, I guarantee they would.

Media like KOTOR And, yes, Force Unleashed have shown that jedi and sith and force users of all flavors can do all the fancy nonsense that chaos FUs do, but they don't, because again, budget.

Me personally, I don't mind if so long as it leads to an interesting story. My line is when people use it poorly. Padawans moving starships with their mind, individual characters moving celestial bodies, sith using transfer essence to hot drop in a new body after their old one went kablewie.

The Force is a narrative tool. You can use it well, or you can use it poorly. But it's inherently built into the world that the Force has no limit.

Luke: I can't. It's too big.
Yoda: Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.
Luke: You want the impossible.

Straight from Empire Strikes Back.

The Force is limitless.

Good Writing just requires a lot more effort than simply spamming force lightning.

 

[Alan]

Good Writing just requires a lot more effort than simply spamming force lightning.

Feels like everyone is just spamming everything nowadays, especially with the longer-standing Jedi/Sith characters/writers that pretty much, are guaranteed in most big threads or invasions or battles, to wield the force like Thor or there's a 90 percent chance there's a force storm or giant battlefield-spanning force power.

 

[Ko Vuto]

"Those who have power should restrain themselves from using it." - Kit Fisto

A lore quote that I use to try to keep in mind as something of a power scaling north star for Ko. Especially since I've felt that my own character has gotten away from me with power creeping.

I also believe there's ways for 'weaker/less capable' jedi or sith to accomplish similar results to what you would see in The Force Unleashed. I saw a clip a few years back from Sam Witwer making comparisons to Starkiller and Kal Cestis. Giving an example on how they can both accomplish the same thing. Where Starkiller might just yank a big ship down into a crash landing with raw telekinetic might. Kal Cestis might mind trick the pilot into performing a reckless nose dive. Effectively achieving the same result but through pretty different uses of The Force.

A little bit of creativity can believably allow characters to punch well above their weight class.

But I do think that restraint is a powerful tool to ward off burnout from a possible over saturation of Force based grandiosity. Something that might also be nice are similar big events that aren't related to The Force. But that could just come off as fighting fire with fire where things can spiral out of control in an over the top arms race between FUs and NFUs. (which I fear has been the case since before I joined the Chaos community.)

Now I'm gonna use two examples from lore to articulate my subjective opinion. One I consider Aura, and the other Sweat. I may ruffle some feathers.

Aura: Darth Vader's Hallway Scene from Rouge One. Peak Aura, and he barely does anything while fighting fodder NPCs. He also doesn't even succeed. Sometimes more is less.



Sweat: Personally I feel that there's a plenty of sweat coming from the sith triumvirate as a whole but Darth Nihilus takes the cake for me as peak sweat.

 

[Alan]

But that could just come off as fighting fire with fire where things can spiral out of control in an over the top arms race between FUs and NFUs.

"my lizard juice in a tube backpack that blocks the force" yeah I can agree with that. Good points raised m8

 

[Balun Dashiell]

I feel like there's a time and a place, provided the ability has sufficient explanation behind what's driving it. For example, a combined effort by Jedi unified in their connection to the Force creates a much more powerful expression of Force Power.

Battle meditation comes to mind, and also how Jedi would fly their vectors in unison, a tightened drift in which they are all connected to each other, tapping into their wingmates and able to act through feelings rather than the need to voice their coordination.

I don't mind when people use larger displays of Force Powers, but personally, I have often kept to what we've seen on screen in the movies and shows. I like the RP to feel believable despite playing a space wizard with a sword of light, Balun is not a powerhouse -- he is simply one man among an order of individuals.

Now I could see my alt Jido Myyse being capable of more significant shows of force, pun intended. But I still hesitate to do so. I like to keep things as fair as possible for those my characters are fighting, and all of my characters have their limits and flaws. I've never played a battlemaster and never actually written any of my characters practising battle-meditation, though I love the ability. Force Light has always been the greatest power that I have had my jedi display, and it has only been to counter the darkness in the Sith, their connection to the Darkside, not to harm them physically (Though some have responded in that way by consequence).

I would absolutely take part in a climactic and extraordinary show of the Force, alongside others who make a sufficient and believable contribution, but doing so with a single character isn't something I could comfortably write without feeling like my post is too OP.

 

[Kathryn Star]

Feels.

I know the emotion behind the title card. I think many of us have been there. The struggle to stand out. To fit in. To find your place in a galaxy far, far away. To contribute without feeling harsh, or brash, or overindulgent. To find the middle. To find your people.

I've never seen it. This sacred "middle ground". The magic spot were all our Force Powers jive together in a perfect mathematically balance formula envious of all video game connoisseurs and table-top magisters alike. The place were every Non-Force User can look up to the Jedi and Sith and say: "About damn time." Then we all get together and watch the fireworks as warmongering galaxy-burning besties.

...

*shrugs

Meh. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. This, perfect dot of perfectly balanced magical potential-place. It just means it's hard to see from time to time.

But, (speaking as a Dungeon Master now,) I'd rather have a happy table of roleplayers and party people - than a perfectly mathmatical system of dice and balance on my spreadsheets. I'd rather have the stains of coffee, and Red Bull, and Spicy Nachos on my character sheet - than a perfectly crafted min-maxed level 1 Half-Orc, Half-Xenomorph Celestial Paladin.

Nah. I'd rather shoot for good vibes. Than good balance.

Find your people Alan

The rest takes care of itself.

 

[Audren Sykes]

I really want to give a definitive answer, but if I'm going to be honest I have to stick with 'it depends'.

I was also tempted to leave it at that but I'm procrastinating on homework, so I'll make the time to give a real answer.


From my perspective, there are two major factors: is it done well and is it done often? The latter is easier to address: just like having the same food every meal - or even a few different things in limited circulation - it gets old fast. The former is a bit more nuanced, for better or worse.

Occurring once per thread is probably an exaggeration in most cases. I'm sure there are threads out there without a single use of the Force, maybe not even a single reference to it, but it's the perception we're speaking of. When it's perceived as once per thread, or even once per faction per thread...yea. It becomes a series of one-upmanships. Someone earlier in the thread brought up budgetary limits of movies, which is valid, but even in the pre-Disney EU and written words only some powers were supposed to be ultra-rare. It doesn't make a good story if everyone on the street has some sort of ultra power, unless the story specifically revolves around that. Just like RL where some people are smarter or more physically capable than others, there should be such a spectrum

We see the same thing creeping into technology, not just here but in any arena that allows custom submissions. Lightsaber-resistant this, Force-resistant that, imbuements up the yin-yang, physics-defying (even for the fandom) items, cross-dimensional whatnots that basically make that piece of technology (or conglomerate of tech) god-tier. There's a reason some submissions here are relegated to unique or semi-unique status, but even that only goes so far.
--- Note: this section was not intended to disparage the Factory in any way, it just ties in somewhat to the subject matter.

The flip side of this, of course, is the lens of focus. We see what, maybe up to five hundred characters in any given season/cycle? Out of the hundreds of named planets with up to billions of individuals each, plus the thousands more that aren't named/documented yet, we see a percent of a percent. Statistically speaking, of course the extraordinary would be happening at one point or another. But again, we're speaking of perception. When those five hundred are all that are in the story, the rest are effectively mist and vapor, and it seems to the reader that the rate is high even if when compared to the general galaxy it may be infinitesimal.

Whether it's being done well...quite honestly, that will be in the eye of the beholder and it also comes down to perception. Take the theoretical character of Darth Whodunit, who's been on the board for years and has been built from apprentice on up to master rank across over a hundred threads. They unleash a Force Storm in a thread, and those who have been around for a while know it's a power that's been built into. A first-time threader sees it and immediately thinks it's OP, so they Phase, teleport, or otherwise handwavium it away. Who's right? On the other hand, it could be so poorly written, even by a veteran writer, that people cringe when they read it. Too, does it fit the character? To have a brutish character suddenly displaying molecular-level precision, or a fragile wisp of a character unexpectedly smashing a literal army of combat droids to splinters...

Or it could be a group of brand-new writers. They think what they're writing is the greatest thing since sliced bread, appropriately built up and fleshed out, but someone else on the board has expanded the lore in that specific location/power/subject. Who's right? Is it acceptable to appreciate both, or does one or the other get pushed out?

Such are some of the downsides/tradeoffs of the EU I think, 'Legends' or otherwise. There are so many wildly fantastic options available, carefully (ish) documented in repositories like Wookieepedia, and what was once meant to be the single esoteric skill of an ancillary character's ancestor's story can get taken up by a dozen characters who spam it like it's Magic Missile.

Going straight from the title: do Force powers feel less compelling the more grandiose they are? No. In my mind the grandiose ones are usually less compelling the more common they are. Commonality moderates or dilutes grandiosity.

Again though, I think it comes back to one's perception.

Now back to homework.