Chupa La'Roi
#RealSpaceViking
[youtube]http://youtu.be/M9BNoNFKCBI[/youtube]
Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos
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Passive-Aggressive Godmoding
- Thread starter Darth Immortus
- Start date
Verz Horak
Darjetii Kyramud
I think people have trouble separating OOC and IC because:
A) Most people view their character as an extension of themselves, their avatar in the Star Wars Universe. I know my character is just a more badass projection of myself. Peel away the Mando and Verz's backstory, to just the personality, and you find me IRL.
B)So much of this board is IC, and so much of it revolves around IC events, threads, and the nitty gritty of a good punch in the face. It's that simple. We need to stop worrying about the proper syntax to avoid GMing and just have fun. If I have my veteran Mando nigh-supersoldier fight a runt of a Padawan, IC my guy will be arrogant about an easy fight. Hence I will describe his thoughts in the post as being arrogant. Doesn't make it true that I am the best warrior ever of all time. I just want to act like it. And I can, because this is a Role Play. I can act however I want within the established rules of the base universe.
A) Most people view their character as an extension of themselves, their avatar in the Star Wars Universe. I know my character is just a more badass projection of myself. Peel away the Mando and Verz's backstory, to just the personality, and you find me IRL.
B)So much of this board is IC, and so much of it revolves around IC events, threads, and the nitty gritty of a good punch in the face. It's that simple. We need to stop worrying about the proper syntax to avoid GMing and just have fun. If I have my veteran Mando nigh-supersoldier fight a runt of a Padawan, IC my guy will be arrogant about an easy fight. Hence I will describe his thoughts in the post as being arrogant. Doesn't make it true that I am the best warrior ever of all time. I just want to act like it. And I can, because this is a Role Play. I can act however I want within the established rules of the base universe.
Moroi Wareyasui
Cocky Little Poohead
Count Aretine said:
Count Aretine said:
That's the part that threw me, and I imagine others as well. While you could construe the character processing their thoughts and beliefs as an "event" you could do the same when it isn't phrased as an opinion. It's not what you're trying to say, but it is more or less what you said. S'why I suggested the edit for clarification.
I thought my meaning was made clear specifically by the last sentence of the above quoted text: Your character's thoughts, opinions, and beliefs are not objective facts, and thus have no place in the descriptive prose of play-by-post RPing unless they are either a) contained within a speech bubble, or specifically demarcated as a thought or opinion.
Either I was not clear enough initially or certain people didn't read carefully enough, regardless my meaning has been made abundantly clear now.
In any case, I'm quite happy that I made this thread, as it seems that some people have legitimately taken it to heart and may learn from it. I never said it was some enormous problem that we need to push a big red panic button over, but I do see a community here that is genuinely interested in writing and getting along better, which is why I brought it up in the first place. I see some people saying, "well, it's not a huge issue, we have bigger fish to fry - we should be worried about real godmoding, not strains of it," - while this may be true, to me this is just arguing semantics. This is a message board, where we have the ability to discuss a variety of topics all at once in a very quick amount of time. It's not like we're operating in a face-to-face conference room format where only one thing can be discussed at a time. Why shouldn't it be discussed? If there are more pertinent issues, then they can have their own threads. It's not like this thread is at risk of taking up too much space on the board or something.
And besides, godmoding is godmoding. Sometimes it's overt, sometimes it's more subtle, but in the end it's all godmoding. Aren't all good writers interested in eliminating godmoding from their writing, whatever the form? I can't think of many topics that are more deserving of our attention.
Thank you to everyone for weighing in on this topic.
Either I was not clear enough initially or certain people didn't read carefully enough, regardless my meaning has been made abundantly clear now.
In any case, I'm quite happy that I made this thread, as it seems that some people have legitimately taken it to heart and may learn from it. I never said it was some enormous problem that we need to push a big red panic button over, but I do see a community here that is genuinely interested in writing and getting along better, which is why I brought it up in the first place. I see some people saying, "well, it's not a huge issue, we have bigger fish to fry - we should be worried about real godmoding, not strains of it," - while this may be true, to me this is just arguing semantics. This is a message board, where we have the ability to discuss a variety of topics all at once in a very quick amount of time. It's not like we're operating in a face-to-face conference room format where only one thing can be discussed at a time. Why shouldn't it be discussed? If there are more pertinent issues, then they can have their own threads. It's not like this thread is at risk of taking up too much space on the board or something.
And besides, godmoding is godmoding. Sometimes it's overt, sometimes it's more subtle, but in the end it's all godmoding. Aren't all good writers interested in eliminating godmoding from their writing, whatever the form? I can't think of many topics that are more deserving of our attention.
Thank you to everyone for weighing in on this topic.
Moroi Wareyasui
Cocky Little Poohead
That's...wow. I didn't read it when I went to Quote it but I coulda swore that wasn't there the first time. Guess I'm just blind. My apologies.
Quietus
Hunting Again
Are you trying to say...
that what happens here isn't real?
Where are my meds.
that what happens here isn't real?
Where are my meds.
Kung Seilois
Freelancer Extraordinaire
This always struck me as more of an over-sensitivity issue then any real god-modding. If Vader sees Obi-Wan as feeble and weak; it doesn't truly matter if he says it or thinks it. The same concept applies, the only difference is that, as a writer, you can't read his mind and claim to not be feeble and then prove them wrong as that brings your character outside the realm of his abilities and into godhood. It is something he thinks, believes, and is an opinion, the definition of which, is a view or judgement about something, not necessarily, based upon fact or knowledge as despite him thinking that; he is not reaching out and forcing your character to be feeble and weak. Now, should you fight, and he then GodMode you, then yes, you can now call him out on it and feel insulted about his view, but doing so over an opinion: dialogue, thought, or narrative expressed from a limited-third person view is not important nor should it be.
Limited-third person. That is important. We should not be omniscient third person as we are RPing as a person which means we are, roughly, limited to what the character believes and the limits of his/her knowledge. Of course, there are other examples and situations that call for different views, but the one you posted of Obi-Wan and Vader is a limited-third person viewpoint.
I have never been so attached to a character to rage when someone insults said character in IC. OCC insults do wrinkle me, but IC? No. Characters aren't going to get along, they aren't going to like every one they meet, they aren't going to see everyone as their equal. Many characters aren't nice or polite just like the real world. Walking on eggshells doesn't change the matter in the slightest, and if anything, would only make said eggshells become landmines.
I have always seen the point of an RP is to make a good story. To have fun. If I go up against an arrogant character that hates non-force users and sees them challenging them to be an insult to their sense of worth; I am going to roll with it because it adds atmosphere to the fight or dialogue. If I ever insult your character, IC, I hope you know I am not insulting you as a person or a writer. If you ever feel insulted by something I say to you, IC, I wish to apologize in advance for hurting you in any way, but I will play an arrogant character like an arrogant character regardless of if it shall hurt another's feelings because it is true to the character.
My thoughts on the issue.
Limited-third person. That is important. We should not be omniscient third person as we are RPing as a person which means we are, roughly, limited to what the character believes and the limits of his/her knowledge. Of course, there are other examples and situations that call for different views, but the one you posted of Obi-Wan and Vader is a limited-third person viewpoint.
I have never been so attached to a character to rage when someone insults said character in IC. OCC insults do wrinkle me, but IC? No. Characters aren't going to get along, they aren't going to like every one they meet, they aren't going to see everyone as their equal. Many characters aren't nice or polite just like the real world. Walking on eggshells doesn't change the matter in the slightest, and if anything, would only make said eggshells become landmines.
I have always seen the point of an RP is to make a good story. To have fun. If I go up against an arrogant character that hates non-force users and sees them challenging them to be an insult to their sense of worth; I am going to roll with it because it adds atmosphere to the fight or dialogue. If I ever insult your character, IC, I hope you know I am not insulting you as a person or a writer. If you ever feel insulted by something I say to you, IC, I wish to apologize in advance for hurting you in any way, but I will play an arrogant character like an arrogant character regardless of if it shall hurt another's feelings because it is true to the character.
My thoughts on the issue.
Elijah Francioux
Member
I still hold firm that a characters personal opinion is not "god modding". There is no way an opinion could be. That's why its an opinion. It can either be proven right or it can be proven wrong. Simply because Player A may not like how Player C writes does not mean Player B will hate it as well. Its all subjective opinion. Even what you may view as "thought god modding" may not be veiwed as such by other people. Again it comes down personal perception.
Tefka
L Admin
SWRP also has an ignore option. If you block/ignore a bully, Staff isn't going to care. We'll probably pat you on the back.Chupa La'Roi said:
The Blood Hound
I stopped reading comments at around page 3, so forgive me if someone else already said what I'm about to.
This is just silly.
We roleplay. We write our characters. This means that everything that is not clear cold facts ("the sky was blue"), is a matter of point of view and opinions. Two characters would see the same explosion, one will be awed, the other will be all meh. When you write your post, you advance the story from your character's point of view. Yes yes, there are instances in which you serve as a DM rather than as your character, but that's not what we're talking about.
But to me, it's a gazillion times clear that if someone calls another person "weak" and it's done IC... It's their bloody opinion. IC is pretty much the last place where I wanna be thinking if I'm up to society's standards of being perfectly PC. If someone gets their feelings hurt because a post says their character is weak without adding neon signs pointing "LOL JUST MY OPINION DW HAHAHAHA" then they're probably not mature enough to be in public and should turn their wifi off.
That said, there is a vast difference between things being IC, and between abusing IC to lash out at a writer you don't like. If the latter happens, you can kindly bow out of the thread, or call a RPJ, and take a mental note to avoid the person in the future. However, do remember that some people will take any non-shiny thing being read/thought/said about their character as a personal offence. Refer to the last sentence of my previous paragraph in such a case.
This is just silly.
We roleplay. We write our characters. This means that everything that is not clear cold facts ("the sky was blue"), is a matter of point of view and opinions. Two characters would see the same explosion, one will be awed, the other will be all meh. When you write your post, you advance the story from your character's point of view. Yes yes, there are instances in which you serve as a DM rather than as your character, but that's not what we're talking about.
But to me, it's a gazillion times clear that if someone calls another person "weak" and it's done IC... It's their bloody opinion. IC is pretty much the last place where I wanna be thinking if I'm up to society's standards of being perfectly PC. If someone gets their feelings hurt because a post says their character is weak without adding neon signs pointing "LOL JUST MY OPINION DW HAHAHAHA" then they're probably not mature enough to be in public and should turn their wifi off.
That said, there is a vast difference between things being IC, and between abusing IC to lash out at a writer you don't like. If the latter happens, you can kindly bow out of the thread, or call a RPJ, and take a mental note to avoid the person in the future. However, do remember that some people will take any non-shiny thing being read/thought/said about their character as a personal offence. Refer to the last sentence of my previous paragraph in such a case.
To address some more misconceptions I'm seeing. Note that when I say "you", I'm referring to the collective "you" as in all of us, not any specific person.
Regarding the idea that anyone who reacts negatively to passive-aggressive godmoding is being "oversensitive", a crybaby, etc. Yeah, some writers are way too sensitive. Be that as it may, this doesn't change the fact that by passive-aggressive writing, what you're doing is still technically godmoding, as described by the generally accepted definition of godmoding that Chupa posted earlier on page 1. Is it really valid to be projecting your errors onto the victim, even if the victim produces a childish reaction? Does one wrong justify another?
Some might say, "Well, if you don't like the way I write, then don't write with me." I don't know when this became an acceptable excuse for powerplaying, but fine, so be it. Follow this thought process through to its logical conclusion. The only one it ends up hurting the most is you. You're only alienating yourself from other members because your passive-aggressive writing style is generally considered to be in poor taste.
Also, I don't think the standard, knee-jerk reaction of most people to this sort of behavior is cursing, table flipping and crying oneself to sleep at night. If it is, I would highly recommend that person find a new hobby. If you truly take things that personally, then Forum RP is definitely not the place for you. I can only speak for myself, but my personal reaction to passive-aggressive godmoding is merely a sigh or an eye roll, followed by a mental note to not roleplay with the person in question if said behavior continues.
Regarding the idea that anyone who reacts negatively to passive-aggressive godmoding is being "oversensitive", a crybaby, etc. Yeah, some writers are way too sensitive. Be that as it may, this doesn't change the fact that by passive-aggressive writing, what you're doing is still technically godmoding, as described by the generally accepted definition of godmoding that Chupa posted earlier on page 1. Is it really valid to be projecting your errors onto the victim, even if the victim produces a childish reaction? Does one wrong justify another?
Some might say, "Well, if you don't like the way I write, then don't write with me." I don't know when this became an acceptable excuse for powerplaying, but fine, so be it. Follow this thought process through to its logical conclusion. The only one it ends up hurting the most is you. You're only alienating yourself from other members because your passive-aggressive writing style is generally considered to be in poor taste.
Also, I don't think the standard, knee-jerk reaction of most people to this sort of behavior is cursing, table flipping and crying oneself to sleep at night. If it is, I would highly recommend that person find a new hobby. If you truly take things that personally, then Forum RP is definitely not the place for you. I can only speak for myself, but my personal reaction to passive-aggressive godmoding is merely a sigh or an eye roll, followed by a mental note to not roleplay with the person in question if said behavior continues.
Kung Seilois said:
Both issues really irrelevant, as no one is claiming otherwise. As I said before, characters are still free to be douchebags, so not to worry.Elijah Francioux said:
Skorn Draclau
The Dragon
Meh, someone insulting my character passive aggressively is far from god moding. Because I can passive aggressively insult them right back. Or better yet passive aggressively ignore them and not write with them anymore. One of the advantages of RPing in an open ended environment?
I thought god moding by its definition was pretty clear. Defining actions not pertaining to your character as solid facts. Quite simple really. Also I snickered a little at the bad writing complaint Tef. We write at an internet forum, honestly if you guys are looking for the pinnacle of writing then you are looking for it in the wrong place. Let people write things they way they wish to write them, improving their own particular styles of writing seems to me to be their responsibility...not any one individual's.
Let each member evolve their own writing styles as they see fit, while our admins can worry about the rules.
I thought god moding by its definition was pretty clear. Defining actions not pertaining to your character as solid facts. Quite simple really. Also I snickered a little at the bad writing complaint Tef. We write at an internet forum, honestly if you guys are looking for the pinnacle of writing then you are looking for it in the wrong place. Let people write things they way they wish to write them, improving their own particular styles of writing seems to me to be their responsibility...not any one individual's.
Let each member evolve their own writing styles as they see fit, while our admins can worry about the rules.
Arumi Zy
Jekyll
My character is a pompous arrogant as, his thoughts and opinion to not constitute your characters traits. If he thinks your character is a weak, pathetic fool it does not make it factual.
If your RPing because you want perfect "RP" syntax and such, and believe making or " correcting" others RP style is a fun pastime you may have bigger issues then " passive aggressive" anything. People write for fun, they aren't writing for a class, for grades or to impress anyone. If someone stating their CHARACTERs opinion in a factual to their characters opinion bothers you that much you feel the need to bring it up don't write with. People take this stuff to seriously sometimes and forget what it's all about. FUN!
If your RPing because you want perfect "RP" syntax and such, and believe making or " correcting" others RP style is a fun pastime you may have bigger issues then " passive aggressive" anything. People write for fun, they aren't writing for a class, for grades or to impress anyone. If someone stating their CHARACTERs opinion in a factual to their characters opinion bothers you that much you feel the need to bring it up don't write with. People take this stuff to seriously sometimes and forget what it's all about. FUN!
Jsc
Disney's Princess
New wisdoms:
- Godmoding and Verbal Abuse are two separate forms of being a dick. And while I can understand the association, some writers prefer to discuss them, (and see them,) as separate issues. Interesting.
- People don't often read a thread's entirety before submitting an opinion of it. Which while being understandably inconvenient, often leads to strange critiques.
Valiens Nantaris
Head Admin
It's ironic that we're in a thread about being passive-aggressive....Isis Fontana said: