Make PVP Great Again

[Rusty]

I have a feeling this is going to be a sensitive topic, but here goes.

PVP, in its current state on Chaos, doesn't matter.

This is an improvement over the bad old days, when duel wins counted towards the success of an invasion and unscrupulous factions tried to pressure their players into refusing to concede losses or even take damage. Taking them out of judgment criteria for invasions was the right thing to do, and it made invasions a lot easier to live with. No one with two brain cells to rub together wants a return to that mindset, and seriously suggesting we try is probably a good way to get flogged with hosepipes.

Having said that, the current state of PVP on Chaos is...kinda meh. You still see some neat threads focused around it (the Jedi vs TSE skirmish on Ossus comes to mind), but overall? PVP doesn't matter. It adds a bit of flavor, but it counts for nothing and there's no serious reason to get good at it. This is a shame, because epic duels have been a staple of Star Wars nearly since the beginning. Even on the Death Star, everyone stopped shooting at each other long enough to see an arthritic old man fight a giant robot man with a laser sword, because OMG THAT'S SO COOL IT'S A SWORD THAT'S A LASER AND IT MAKES THAT VOOOOM NOISE!

Ahem. Sorry.

I am not suggesting that we make PVP victories part of the judgment criteria for invasions. Since the quality of the story is already a judgment criteria, it seems kind of redundant to make the quality of duels one as well. Actually, I say we leave invasions alone for the most part. There's just one little thing I'd suggest.

What if we were to allow two consenting factions to stake the outcome on the outcome of a PVP match as an alternative to the current invasion system?

Each side presents a champion or champions, they fight it out, and the last one standing takes it all. No one could be forced into participating, and since everyone there consents to be there, we shouldn't see too much salt. Hell, it wouldn't even necessarily have to be a duel. It could be a dogfight, or a poker game, or a hotdog eating contest. Just so long as both sides agree on the terms and agree to abide by the results, it's legit.

All that would need to be added to the existing rules is a caveat that allows factions to select PVP as an alternate means of determining the outcome. Again, both sides would have to agree on terms beforehand, and both sides would have to agree to be bound by the results. Much like a normal invasion, an RPJ would read through things once it's done, but in this case it's likely to be much less of a headache, if only because there's not nearly as much material to sort through.

How does this help PVP?

Not much, at least at first. I expect most factions will want to do things in the same old way, because it's what they know and it works. But, what I'm hoping is we'll see a couple jump on it, and once everyone else sees that hey, this works, they might consider it as a viable alternative, especially during those times of the year where it's hard to coordinate large groups of people.

Make the ability to duel (or eat hotdogs if that's your thing) a viable, useful skill again and it gets a bit of its old prestige back. Gradually, interest in gitting gud should pick up, which should reduce a number of headaches all around.

Anyway, that's it. Thoughts?

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

Each side presents a champion or champions, they fight it out, and the last one standing takes it all. No one could be forced into participating, and since everyone there consents to be there, we shouldn't see too much salt. Hell, it wouldn't even necessarily have to be a duel. It could be a dogfight, or a poker game, or a hotdog eating contest. Just so long as both sides agree on the terms and agree to abide by the results, it's legit.

You mean... A conquest?

I miss PvP. I miss PvP having some weight. I fully agree that PvP should not be a deciding factor in invasions. However, with the current setup of how both they and rebellions work, it renders it... sorta redundant.

What I liked was what [member="Darth Metus"] suggested a while ago - make PvP count... a little. In the case of RPJ's judging an invasion/rebellion and all the categories are tied? Let PvP be the tie breaker. This should be enough to keep those interested in it also interested in these threads, while not stealing the focus away from awesome storytelling.

Fite me.

 

[Rusty]

I don't see where that's a thing in the rules, but admittedly, I've been out of touch for a while and the internet here sucks, so there's only so much digging around I can do before the network collapses. If it's already a thing, then, well, whoops.

That's not a bad idea either though, and I quite like it.

Fite you? Fite me.

[member="Scherezade deWinter"]

 

[LT-137]

Conquests got axed not long after they were announced, as they were basically competitive dominions for neutral spaces between factions. There's been a few revamp ideas to make them better - but I kinda like the small-scale aspect that's been presented. Hell, even counting as a tiebreaker in an Invasion would be great too - as a singular duel can be a great read/story if handled by competent writers.

I'm always up to fight people - but as of late - it's been their unwillingness to fight back that's been killing my vibes. lol

 

[Scherezade deWinter]

[member="Rusty"] I think conquests were never added to the faction menu, which was part of why no one ever tried them out. Tefka said he was gonna do away with them last time it was discussed anyway.

As for the fite...

 

[Quietus]

There's a curious little detail about invasions that everyone always seems to forget about:

Staff is not required to determine the winner/outcome of an invasion if both factions behave like adults and can come to a conclusion of a winner between them.

Once an Invasion nears it's completion, contact the Head Admin (Valiens Nantaris) and he will inform the Role-play Judges. If either faction does not concede, the Role-play Judges will decide the victor.

Essentially, you could run invasions however you want, including like a tourney, if you can agree to determine a winner in the end on your own.

Ask neutral parties not involved in either faction to judge your duels. Roll the dice. Pull straws.

You are empowered to make invasions as great as you want to.

You have the ability to make PVP count again.

If you can find a way to work together without requiring the RPJs to judge your invasions based on their criteria.

 

[LT-137]

It hasn't really been forgotten. No one has, or will, willingly concede because they believe that they deserve the Win.

Shrugs

 

[Voices of The Deep]

@Rusty

I like this to be completely honest. I can easily see each faction having like its best PvPers and having like a small group of Champions who LIVE for this kind of shiz. Would be amusing seeing each factions group of Champions developing salt rivalries with one another. So i approve, i love me some PvP even though i don't really do it anymore.

 

[Rusty]

I realize that, technically speaking, the current invasion format does allow for a great deal of flexibility in terms of story, objectives, and so on, but inertia is a stone queen. No one is willing to radically deviate from the current format without a really good reason, because that's risky as hell and there's always something at stake in an invasion. It's far easier to do things the same old way and hope for the best than try something new on a whim. If this is going to happen, there has to be at least a grudging nod of approval from the rules, something that says it's an officially sanctioned option. Without teeth behind it, no one is going to gamble on a technicality.

[member="Quietus"]

I feel your pain.

[member="Khonsu Amon"]

Well, that explains it. Kinda not surprising nothing ever came of that. Good idea and all, but dominions are the sort of low risk, high reward (unless you're eligible to be rebelled against) thing that allow factions to build story. As much as I would like to see them get shaken up a bit, I can't imagine why they'd do it to themselves voluntarily.

The primary difference here is, the invasion is already a thing. Once it's declared, it's happening. This just gives more flexibility to the belligerents, and has the added benefit of being at least notionally sanctioned.

Also, I don't have any GIFs to reply with, but this is me coming at you.

[member="Scherezade deWinter"]

 

[Quietus]

I realize that, technically speaking, the current invasion format does allow for a great deal of flexibility in terms of story, objectives, and so on, but inertia is a stone queen. No one is willing to radically deviate from the current format without a really good reason, because that's risky as hell and there's always something at stake in an invasion. It's far easier to do things the same old way and hope for the best than try something new on a whim. If this is going to happen, there has to be at least a grudging nod of approval from the rules, something that says it's an officially sanctioned option. Without teeth behind it, no one is going to gamble on a technicality.

It's not a technicality.

RPJ's judging invasions is actually the Plan B to when members can't coordinate efforts between themselves and come to a decision on their own.

Your freedom to do your invasions as you will, working together collaboratively, is written right into the rules.

You want Staff to define your freedom by writing more rules. That's not how it was supposed to work.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

Based on everything that's being said I think the idea is more encouragement for going beyond what is now -regardless of the rules- the standard format.
[member="Quietus"]

As you're totally right, its up to the people themselves to pick up the slack in regards to how invasions are basically formulaic at this point. But the thing is, people are prideful and lazy. So, I don't think restrictions are the idea here or further rules that kinda outline what you should do or how it should be done. But some form of encouragement for risking variety.

[member="Rusty"]
I like your ideas.
I'd say maybe, this could present itself with some opportunities for two writers who have never interacted before the genuinely make a new friend or enemy depending on the salt? Its a idea that's high risk high reward both ICly and OOCly. So I dunno how it'd work before put into practice.
That's my two cents.

 

[Rusty]

I'm not sure I get where you're coming from. Giving people more options for deciding the outcome doesn't limit anyone's freedom to do as they see fit. All it does is just that: give them more options. It offers a measure of security, in that they can choose unconventional formats aren't necessarily allowed under the current rules, but that's it. No one loses anything. No one has to use this option unless they really want to. It's an option, nothing more, nothing less.

Invasions, as they stand, remain unaltered.

 

[Ellie Mors]

If this is going to happen, there has to be at least a grudging nod of approval from the rules, something that says it's an officially sanctioned option. Without teeth behind it, no one is going to gamble on a technicality.

As someone who used to judge invasion/rebellions, and helped write the current invasion and rebellion criteria, there is no technicality in this. Yeah, sure, I don't have my orange rpj tag and I'm not an official voice of staff, but the rules specifically state that both factions are to convene and may concede victory to the other party. It is only when both parties refuse to do so that RPJs are to form their judgement. Every invasion judgement starts with the same question - are either party willing to concede to the other. If someone concedes, and this isn't even something that doesn't happen because it does happen and has happened in invasions I've judged as well as rebellions, then we mark the party that was conceded to the victor. The end.

(unless you're starting a rebellion to keep a recalled major faction major and purposefully throw the rebellion, then you're going to get roasted over the coals).

 

[Jsc]

I remember when PvP mattered and people were still jerks.

Oh.

This suggestion isn't meant to fix people? Oh, then yeah. Change all the things. New is fine. I love trying new things.

 

[Malok]

Unless PVP becomes a criteria for judging invasions, it's not going to matter on this site.

 

[Eralam]

As someone who used to judge invasion/rebellions, and helped write the current invasion and rebellion criteria, there is no technicality in this. Yeah, sure, I don't have my orange rpj tag and I'm not an official voice of staff, but the rules specifically state that both factions are to convene and may concede victory to the other party. It is only when both parties refuse to do so that RPJs are to form their judgement. Every invasion judgement starts with the same question - are either party willing to concede to the other. If someone concedes, and this isn't even something that doesn't happen because it does happen and has happened in invasions I've judged as well as rebellions, then we mark the party that was conceded to the victor. The end.

(unless you're starting a rebellion to keep a recalled major faction major and purposefully throw the rebellion, then you're going to get roasted over the coals).

Perspective and perception are funny things. From your perspective, because you were intimately involved in the process, you can quite confidently assert that that's how things work. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, except your perspective cuts you off from perception of someone who didn't help put things together. And that perception is that things work the way they do because they have to. They might not; I'm fully prepared to take your word on the matter given that you do have that perspective, but take a step back and place yourself in the shoes of the average writer on here.

Invasions are almost always bitterly contested, the outcomes up in the air until the judgment comes down from on high. They've only seen things work in the same old way. It never occurs to them that there might be another. Give them another option, an officially sanctioned one, and they might take it. Otherwise, nothing changes.

[member="Lily Kuhn"]

Jerkdom is inherent in the human condition. Until we manage to eliminate the humans, that is.

[member="Jsc"]

It could matter, it just takes the right push.

[member="Darth Metus"]

 

[Ellie Mors]

[member="Eralam"]
That is true. Sometimes we all need to be reminded of that.

 

[Vora Kaar]

[member="Eralam"],

As long as the groups doing this invasion are actively working together to just have fun, and don't really care about the map game, or possibly losing a hex or two, (which I have doubt with some factions or groups with this) Then I see no problem doing this. As well, you mention how the invasions can work.

If the "Rules" could be rewritten to have examples of what can be done in an invasion so that others can see, "Oh hey look. We could do an arena fight where the winners claim the hex" then it would open the door to those who have closed minds of what Invasions are. However, of course you will have people stick to the tried and true.

Would I love to see more of this? Yes. Would it likely happen? Nah. Maybe on a blue moon.

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

[member="Rusty"] Factions can already do this in invasions. Have two champions duel, the loser concedes defeat.