Let's get rid of the requirements for Force Users

[Jsc]

For posterity. *and because my voice is silky smooth.* My final excerpt and opinion from my last Discussion. *because TLDR*

"...But. I suppose that much like life, everything is just perspective. Where others see a Level Up. I see a grind. Where others say it merits skill. I say it just merits a gluttony for pain. Where others say it grants interaction. I say it forces you to pursue lesser content. Where others view it as a starting place. I view it as a wall. And of course, where others say it builds your knowledge base. I say, it's a tutorial in dealing with frustration. I believe that if such a change where implemented we would see more interaction, more characters created, more mentors for Padawans, one less obnoxious barrier to entry, and a new player initiative to seek out even more creative means of participating, gathering knowledge, and for finding value in our RP experience on Chaos.

Last but not least. After reading the feedback here and in my other feedback polls abroad, I now believe that this community isn't ready for it either. Now is not the time and Chaos is not the place."

 

[Gherron Dragovalor]

I fail to see how removing the restriction on ranks will in any way help the site, IC or OOC. Like its been said above quite a few times now, it would screw with Chaos' infrastructure, and would also create a hell of a lot of salty writers who worked their way up the latter to get to where they are now. When I first started writing, I was impatient, and wanted my knight ranking now . I fought with my character's leadership both in and out of character. Ask [member="Joshua DragonsFlame"] about that one, I'm sure he had fun with that. However, because of the restriction, I've not only put much more story behind one character over two years, I've also had the pleasure of seeing him evolve over that time, and I've learned that you can't just have everything right away. Now, I still have people asking me why Gherron isn't a master yet, and frankly, it's because I don't want him to be. It was the fact that I had to wait a while that got me to appreciate writing a lot more since I've been a member here. So with that said, I say keep the restriction.

 

[Laira Darkhold]

No.

If master is the starting rank the madness will simply create supreme master and ultra master.

And also I support padawans and training. I know a bunch of folks sprint to master and that kinda sucks, but I like the feeling of accomplishment of attaining a new rank.

 

[Fabula Caromed]

Opposed.

Ranks don't mean a lot, honestly, but they do have some meaning. Master in particular is something that's earned through genuine effort. At times, it feels like we hand out master promotions like candy, but that's honestly not the case when you consider how many characters aren't. Most full-time writers on this board have a master character or two, but not every character is master-ranked. The second the rank system is abolished, the master rank would be flooded by people who otherwise wouldn't have met the (admittedly few) requirements we have for masterhood.

Which wouldn't be a bad thing, honestly. The rank system means very little. A character's rank is largely an OOC thing, since Force powers have no rank requirements, and ranks play no role in resolving IC disputes at all. But even that little OOC bit of trust that we've given a master compared to a knight starts to make a difference when we ignore it for literally everyone on the board. It's easy enough to get master rank as it is. There's no reason to strip away what little regulation is already applied to it.

As people above me have probably already mentioned, there's also the sense of accomplishment that comes with crowning your first master. That is a good thing, no matter how false it is, and it would be horrible to lose it for the whole board.

 

[Xiarr Sair]

No,I don't think that we should lift the entire system,I don't know about you,but I don't want inexperienced roleplayers becoming Masters in 2 posts. But I do think that the system should be changed,there are still writers that have been on chaos since its founding,yet they are still Knights and even Apprentices. So yeah,if we lift the promotion system,there would be literal chaos.

 

[Jaxton Ravos]

I think the decision boils down to a question.

Can self-control be taught?

If we can teach people to control the powers that come with Master Rank so that we don't have people trying to summon Force Storms every thread or Supernova-ing a planet they don't like then we should, and the Rank System is a good way to do that. I'm personally understanding of all the padawans that shoot out electric judgement and block every blaster bolt because most of the ones that do are new people, and are only doing what they think is cool, and IMO have potential to learn.

However, at present I don't believe that rank promotions are given out based on the skill or maturity level of the writers. Well, it certainly helps, but a lot of times people are promoted to master simply because of character experience/post count. Which, IMO, somewhat defeats the point of rank promotion systems. So do transfers, though I'd say to a much lesser degree.

But if self-control can't be taught, then I see little point in keeping the Rank System. Those who are gonna abuse are always gonna abuse and vice versa, and we might as well just report/ban out all of the bad eggs.

I personally believe we can teach people to have restraint, it just needs to come from the right people the right way. Either I think this is more of a writing site than a gaming site.

Overall I'd favor keeping the rank system, but I can definitely see both arguments.

 

[Tefka]

there are still writers that have been on chaos since its founding,yet they are still Knights and even Apprentices.

If you've been here for more than 3 years and you haven't made one Master yet, and you've been actively trying - and I mean really trying, then please come forward and I will cap you right here on the spot.

 

[Judah Dashiell]

[member="Darth Prazutis"]


Shh....Keep us NFUs out of this. We've got our own system

 

[Josh Dragovalor]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

No.

Seriously though. Getting to Knight isn't hard. I give it (Figuratively anyway, I submit them for promotion) to my Padawans like candy if they actually put work into earning it. I put stock into story over "WAAAAAAAH I WANT IT NOWWWWWWWWWW".

Master is a lot easier to get then it should be IMO. It was a lot harder back in my day. Now they give it if you make a faction happy.

 

[Thema Csapla]

[member="Ra Vizsla"]

Oh great Lord admin Jesus
Please eliminate these rules

Look, I don't mind rping a padawan. I don't, seriously. But this feature makes rping more of a leveling up meta-game than an rp. When I started out with Thema, she was meant to be a knight, something that really worked with her character. But due to the oorp rules, I sorta had to refit her to fit the rules, which is just an inconvenience to my image of thr character.

And sure, I hear the other complaints. "I don't want some crazy noob rper walking up and declaring himself the second coming of Force-Sensitive Christ." I don't want that either, trust me. But personally, the progression just bugs me, because it means I'm meant to change a preexisting character cause of OORP reasons.

So yeah, that's my 2 cents on the rules.

 

[Alyona Volkovna (Алёна)]

[Member=Tefka]

Rather than swinging between extremes we could simply allow writers to apply for the rank they feel they can handle for a particular character, citing their previous writing.

I feel this works best for a site that values story content and quality above stats and does so without removing staff approval from the process.

 

[Tefka]

Master is a lot easier to get then it should be IMO.

And I don't think it's easy enough.

 

[Darth Kentarch]

Why not just one? Everyone gets one freebie, regardless of how many masters you have. If it gets out of hand, make it a 'grace period' that ends if the board gets flooded with masters.

To busy watching Big Brother 18 to type longer response.

 

[Ashin Varanin]

I've been on two large boards that transitioned from 'rank is tough to get' to some form of 'rank is up to the writer.' One experience was very positive, one was mostly negative. The positive one was on a board where the average writer age was probably north of 27-30. The negative one was on a board where the average age was probably 20-22.

I say 'the negative one', and on balance it wasn't a great experience for every reason you could imagine. But even the negative one had some good points to it. You could create Master-level Forcers suited to play a role in particular stories, yours or someone else's. I firmly believe a lot of story focus resulted.

And sure, you got a couple of people who snapped their fingers and made a Palpatine from nowhere, but the community developed compensation mechanisms. For one, you'd get people who'd make characters that specialized in hunting down cardboard uberMasters who knew all seven saber forms and Force Storm and Transfer Essence and so forth. That got salty, the hunting, but it was an awful lot of fun. That's how my old character Velok got started: hunting Palpatine ripoffs and breaking their cardboard empires.

The other big compensation mechanism was the point that I think is really crucial for Chaos, if we happen to explore this route: no matter how rank is earned, power comes down to respect. You can get away with exactly as much as the other guy lets you get away with. Let me throw out some scenarios:

• Bob creates a new Darth Sidious, whom he names Darth Evil. Juyo master, bodyhops compulsively, uses eight telekinetic lightsabres, known to cripple starships with his lightning. Darth Evil gets in a fight (doesn't really matter with whom) and finds that his apex powers and total blademastery aren't taken quite as seriously as he'd like. He gets pissy, but eventually he learns to moderate his expectations, tone things down, and get respect the right way.
• Jim's buddy Tom is starting up a cool Jedi Academy and needs instructors. Tom digs Jim's administrative ability and writing style and suggests that Jim make a Jedi Master. Jim says 'sure, what do you need?' and Tom says 'I think a healer would be swell. Mind whipping one up for me, if that's something you'd like to write?' So Jim creates a Master-level Jedi healer, combat veteran, dense cool backstory, distinct voice, and goes for it. And students respond and a lot of people have fun. Whoah! Here comes the board's nastiest Sith Lord to mess with the Academy. But Jim's healer stands in his way and ends up getting the better of him by sheer guts and cleverness -- and the Sith Lord's writer goes along with it because he digs the character and respects the effort. Even though the Jedi Master didn't exist a month ago.

Both, with some alterations, are true stories from that negative board; both are what I'd consider positive outcomes. I don't see any reason why those scenarios couldn't happen on Chaos. I flatter myself that I've written some highly competent Force Masters, characters that I've put years into, sometimes a decade or more. On occasion I've let them be defeated by Master-level characters who didn't exist a month before, when I respected the scenario, the character, and the story. I've run into instaMasters I found cooler and more worthy of respect than characters who've existed for years. So ultimately I suspect there'd be a sort of pressure that I noticed on the board where things didn't go so well. And the pressure is this:

No matter what your seniority level, if anyone can be a Master, you gotta justify your continued seniority by stepping up your game. By doing the things that get respect, getting people to take you seriously. On Chaos right now, sure, we have some of that. We also have rank tags stand in for the things we should respect, sometimes, and that breeds laziness.

Final vote: I think we could probably pull it off, here. I'm not 100% sold, but I think we could make good things happen.

 

[Nyxie]

If you've been here for more than 3 years and you haven't made one Master yet, and you've been actively trying - and I mean really trying, then please come forward and I will cap you right here on the spot.

I was but gave up all hope after Circe was capped, does that count? :3

Edit: That came out like a Circebash and I meant it as was forever ago when we both actively wrote.

 

[Tyberius Fel]

[member="Ra Vizsla"]

From what I've seen you advocate for the removal of ranks, but I'm curious as to your exact reasoning on the matter.

 

[Ashin Varanin]

Another point comes to mind in support of the 'Yes' camp:

On both boards where this was tried, people got more experimental with their characters. Strange alien species and cultures, odd personalities, bizarre skillsets. Some really cool things happened as people discovered that they enjoyed playing funky Force Masters. At point point the Big Bad of an entire board was a Dark Side cult composed of, let's see...a Defel mastermind, a (gasp!) bald old man, a Cragmoloid tank, a Twi'lek blademaster, a Givin seer, an Arcona alchemist, and some people of custom species. Some cool results came about.

 

[Josh Dragovalor]

[member="Thema Csapla"] I had to deal with similar, actually. This character was a Knight, but it was SWG RP so I couldn't "import" exactly, I didn't think. I didn't have to change much, luckily. Just played an overqualified Padawan until [member="Ben Watts"] pointed his trident of Grandmasterhood and declared "THINE PADDY MUST CUT OFF THAT STUPID LOOKING BRAID AND BECOME A JEDI KNIGHT OF THE BEN"

 

[Goran]

[member="Ra Vizsla"]

Sometimes I can't help but wonder if you just want to watch the world burn.

In all seriousness, I doubt the complete removal of rank requirements would cause Chaos to descend into, well, chaos. We writers are an adaptable lot, and while we might see an influx of wannabe MASTERS OF EEEEVUUUL with three posts and a bag of potato chips to their name, I don't imagine they'll be taken seriously. Reputation is the key to getting solid RP in these parts, and reputation has to be earned, regardless of what your rank titles might say.

That said, I can't say I'm in favor of removing the advancement system in its entirety. The current system is kinda clunky and relies entirely too much on people who probably have better things to do with their time, like, say, write, but to throw the requirements out altogether is kind of a slap in the face to the people that went through the trouble of working their characters up the hard way, whether it be on Chaos or another site that they transferred from.

My suggestion would be to base promotions on post count. You already need 50 posts to apply for rank titles anyway, barring transferred characters. If you say someone needs 250 (random appealing number that seems sufficiently high) for Knight and 500 (another not quite so random number) for Master, then a certain amount of work goes into the process of earning titles without placing undo strain on RPJs or Thurion. All he'd have to do is look at the post count, see that it lined up right, and approve the title.

Is there the possibility of abuse? Absolutely. Basing it on the number of posts doesn't stop someone from posting 500 times in the OOC thread games and calling it a day. But even that takes a level of dedication that most folks who like shortcuts simply wouldn't find appealing. It's far less tedious to just go out there and do the work. Also, having one standard across the board would make it difficult for less scrupulous factions to artificially inflate their Master and Knight count for the sake of invasions. They'd actually have incentive to encourage RP, rather than mass promoting Apprentices to Knights after a single dominion. Not saying that goes on, mind. I'm sure the enterprising and unscrupulous would find a new way to cheat the system, but that's just the way of the world.

 

[Dune Rhur]

Thought it sounds nihilist, it doesn't matter what tag you have when an apprentice can stand toe-to-toe with a Master. Power gamers gonna power game. It mainly annoying because it poops on your time and effort. Then again, being a Master or a Darth doesn't mean being an ass and casting Force Storms and roflstomping noobs.