Let's get rid of the requirements for Force Users

[Judah Dashiell]

Since [member="Ajira Cardei"] called me out on Skype I'll post my deeper thoughts here :

Good post. I suppose its almost like the NFU system. When someone shows up with a T2 company and billions of credits, we all work to roll our eyes at that. Or when we get an instant 5 Star General on our hands.

Logically, if this goes through I expect reports to skyrocket in Invasions/whatnot.

 

[Alric Kuhn]

[gifv]http://i.imgur.com/bN96U6c.mp4[/gifv]

 

[Arahael]

After thinking about it, I think it would be fine to abolish it.
When you think about it, who are your favourite characters on the board? Many of them aren't high ranking or wealthy, they are highly ranked in respect (Which in my mind is the most important aspect). Nothing's stopping rude, disrespectful people from becoming a master even now. But, ultimately, it's not like you have to respect them, just because of the title. A padawan can theoretically still defeat a master. People are acting like it means something, but in a universe where the rank of master was already given out so openly, what does it matter? People like Luke Skywalker and others, who hardly had training, just granted themselves the title. Furthermore, factions would still be able to somewhat enforce titles. I'm sure being a master in some factions would be valued more, e.g. Faction A master allowed to have the title if he wants, but Faction B master chose to earn it because the faction wanted him.
We already deregulate credits, ships, pretty much everything on this board. Ultimately, if you're still so insecure, there's still things like restricted materials.
Personally, I respect and feel the characters that have interesting factory submissions and RP are more skilled than the masters who stay within some of the cliques.

 

[Nyx]

Nah.
I don't see any glaring issues with the current system. Don't fix what ain't broke.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Alric Kuhn"]

Fixed that for ya.

 

[Thema Csapla]

[member="Joshua DragonsFlame"] well, that's just you. I can respect you not changing your original character idea for a few rules. But I said "if I'm gonna make a padawan, might as well do it right", so I ended up changing Thema into the ultimate Bastila/Ahsoka-like padawan in all of SW history.

Ultimately, I sort of like what she's become, but I'm kind of bothered by the fact her character changed so much due to oorp reasons. I can respect a natural progression system, but I don't want to end up having my character molded by any oorp rules, as long as they're not crazy OP.

 

[Malia Afredane]

I've been on boards of both kinds and generally the ones where you had to start at the bottom and work your way up weeds out the ones who just want instant power. However, the ones where you could start at any rank developed player driven measures to police that kind of stuff themselves. If someone was being grossly OP for a 12 year old Jedi Master prodigy, generally the writer was taken aside and given some friendly advice about "don't be that guy" and if the friendly advice didn't work, well, people didn't write with that guy.

The starting at square one thing only really impacts me in that it forces me to write younger characters than I'm generally used to. I prefer older characters who have been around the block, may not be uber awesome space wizards, but they have life wisdom and a certain perspective. Starting a Sith acolyte out at 40 seems a little odd considering at that age, they should be getting a saber in the back from an apprentice to take their power, not be one but meh. Maybe they were just really crappy students of the Force or completely oblivious to their potential until then.

Do I think the ranking system is necessary to RP? No. Do I think Chaos is ready for that? Nope.

This thread is full of comments about needing people to prove themselves or others being concerned that someone will be handed something they had to earn. Both of which are troubling points of view that ignore the character's arc in favor of a prize. The rank tag may be awarded for a character showing skill growth but the writers cherish it for the prestige.

Removing that prestige likely will not be handled well.

 

[Gorba the Hutt]

Is the current system broken?

A1: No.

Q: Why change it?

A2: Yes.

Q: How will removing ranks fix that?

Personally, I think it is pretty easy to get to master level. Although [member="Ajira Cardei"] and some others have laid out very good reasons for why it would allow more story, I believe that the analysis is a bit too pie in the sky.

The people who already have self control will be able to jump to master rank and write some new fun master level characters.

The people who do not have self control will now have fewer restrictions. Perhaps they will learn self-control eventually when they realize no one respects what they are writing, but in the process of doing that they will cause irritability, headaches, and generally produce a toxic aura as they try to shove master-level force powers down people's throats. Could they learn something in the ensuing slew of reports and ire? Sure. Could they also learn that by taking a few months to learn the ropes as a padawan, causing less pain to everyone involved? Yes. The restrictions of leveling up are minimum enough without being overbearing that it allows for newer RPers to get a sense of what is acceptable and what isn't before leaping into the ability to create Force Storms and open netherworld portals.

Some people might argue that this analysis is too much of a slippery slope. That there will not be a flood of people rushing to abuse the new unranked system. Even if I accept that counter argument that there is a low probability or volume of people abusing the system, I think that the magnitude of the impacts of this unranking system would be wide reaching. When Joe Schmoe Lvl 9000 Dark Sider pops into your dominion and says he is going to put your sun to supernova and destroy your planet, yes you can report him, but I think all of the dozen writers involved would rather not have to even deal with that in the first place. And there will be a higher probability of people doing that in a system where writers aren't vetted for common sense prior to rank approval.

The only benefit I see coming from this is to experienced RPers who don't want to take a month or two to rank up to master in order to write their cool story. When the cost of that cool story comes at the price of stupid amounts of OOC drama, I'd say no.

 

[Ria Misrani]

As someone who has one force user as it is, I appreciate that there's a system like this in place and I'd like to keep it. It really makes a difference, and I pretty much echo the sentiment expressed here. I feel taking out the system that a lot of people have worked hard through will just be unleashing the floodgates. I definitely enjoy the idea of progression and working my way up to these points of a knight and then master. The road certainly doesn't end there for force users and in a collaborative role play environment that shouldn't be the end of the road, there's always the end game content and we're all pretty good at developing said content.

P. S. Reports would probably skyrocket if you lifted the system.

I vote: keep our current system.

 

[Kenrath]

As long as it took me to finally get a character to Master I am a big fan of the current rule set.

When Vengeance was finally granted Lord it was like winning the lottery. Make it an everyday thing and it becomes a case of "oh hey I'm a Master cool."

 

[Ashin Varanin]

[member="Darth Orcus"] makes a good point. I just feel that everyone benefits if we at least partially disentangle rank tags from ego -- especially under the new invasion rules.

 

[Laira Darkhold]

I foresee it working like WoW.

You've got the PvP Duelist Master, the PvE Support Master, and then the have the Characters you actually RP. Not necessarily a bad thing. I would get to start with a Shaman Idea I've been tooling around with for a little while, despite being awful at maintaining Alts.

I know some folks are super sticklers about ranks, but I've tossed Knighthood at people who think they are ready, I've seen folks get approved for master in under 400 posts, and so, being a stickler about it just makes people who aren't interested in that kind of work go to factions that aren't.

Is it a huge deal? No. I don't support it, but I won't lose my marbles.

 

[Liliane]

Uh, so... well. Very difficult to take in, this suggestion is.

I understand where the staff is coming on this matter and what the 'yes' voters say, but I am going to say let's not abolish the rules, please.

I am not going to say this because of envy for how I have had to level up my people for three years now, because I think it would be very awesome if I could just make Masters and be happy about it. No, actually, I wouldn't be happy about it.

Look, there is one thing in the universe and that is sense of accomplishment, which some people have already brought up. This sense is crucial to quality work. Coming from communities where there was no such rank system in place, things turned bland, storyless and just generally not enjoyable. That is because there was no accomplishment. You could be whoever you were and nobody would bat an eye.

But this one feeling gives us good quality story. Have you ever earned something without having to work for it? You will have some fun at first, but then it gets bland. It's in human nature to not stop. You want more and you want more and you want more. There is no sense of accomplishment or feelings of success when you can get what you want rightaway. And that leaves most people unhappy.

If you look at people who do a lot of work to get to where they want to be, they enjoy it a lot more. They have seen both the process and the end result while the 'lucky people' have only seen the result (which isn't even a result, because they didn't have to work for it). These people who have to work understand the value of this thing, they know how to handle it, how to act. There is a reason why we have the rich spoilt child stereotype floating around in the world. That is because they haven't had to work for the money they have. They just have it, simple as that. And they will never forget what it's worth.

If you take away the need for people to go through the process and work for the rank, there will be chaos. Mainly because people suddenly realise there is no point in making a Padawan. Mainly because no matter how good writers we are, temptations are typically stronger. We have worked in Chaos long for ensuring that people stop godmoding and we are one step closer to the goal thanks to our rank system. If we remove it, we are taking a step back.

Orcus made a very good point as well. We would start seeing a lot more problems in Chaos (dominions, invasions, rebellions especially) and even though we can report these things, they actually bring our mood down. But that is not what I am going to talk about. I'm going to talk about preventing these problems from taking place in the first place. We should work to fight against any problems arising at all. And even though that is an unachievable idea, we still have to move towards it. Because we can never reach the limit, but we can get really close to it.

Tef, please. Don't make this happen just yet.

I am not really a conservative person -- I love change, I love new frontiers and I love awesomeness. However, I fear this would cause too much unwanted drama and I know you just want to undermine staff's power. There are other ways to do it.

What I would not be against would be testing this out before we make a final judgement. If there were a way to test it out for a while and see how people reacted and how things would go, we could have a better insight. I am not sure if it is possible, but if it is, then I am 100% up for that.

​

EDIT: If we're at it, why not go full wild? Let's abolish all restricted material, banned material and banned species, as well as Codex and Factory too, because they restrict our creativity. I don't want to change my celestial character with thirty death stars and an army of dragons to fit into Chaos. If I godmode it, then just report me, right?

 

[Isamu Baelor]

I echo the concerns of others. I think it would be a mistake to remove the FU requirements.

 

[Connor Harrison]

[member="Ra Vizsla"]

I feel in doing this, we'd have so many Masters and Knights, and probably no Padawans, effectively losing that charming array of "ranks" to work in IC.

It's a good way to learn about and develop your character as well as having to - shock - restrain yourself a little bit as you settle yourself in a Faction or simply as a part of the Force User spectrum.

Besides, every good Master had to start as Padawan / Apprentice at sometime in books/films etc.

I do like the notion of Faction based approval rather than RPJ however for Master, if they have a rank. Keep it in the Faction, makes sense if 6/7 etc Masters approve of their own understudy to ascend then it should be enough.

 

[Tobias Wrynn]

Just an observation from outside, since I'm fairly new to the site.

So much of the system is ingrained in the way people write on Chaos that it actively creates roleplay and stimulates activity. Barring people who bring characters over from other sites, the only way to become a master of the Force is to be trained, or to train extensively and be approved. This means not fluffing it, but genuinely putting in time and effort to create a character you actually invest your interest in. It not only makes people more dedicated to their characters and therefore more likely to write them well and with less foolishness, it also helps to root out the people who have no interest in putting the effort forward to enhance their roleplay experience or grow their character.

I think of it in terms of character development. Sure, you can start a master and spout all kinds of rhetoric that makes you feel like a consummate badass, but when you had to crawl and writhe on your belly from the very bottom to get to that point, you have so much more appreciation for it. Taking that element away from these people who have been used to it for so long will remove a barrier that has long been present in their experience.

I won't harp on the fairness of it the way some people might. Yes, there are people who put years of real time in developing their characters, but there were so many characters when I first started back in 2007 who were Masters from their inception. It all comes down to skill as a writer, or lack thereof. That said, those skills can be developed and honed over time. The ranking system promotes that.

Overall, it's the enjoyment of the experience that matters, and if it can be accomplished with the system removed, then I suppose it's a moot point.

Still, I am in favor of keeping it intact.

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

Mainly because people suddenly realise there is no point in making a Padawan. Mainly because no matter how good writers we are, temptations are typically stronger.

This is really the crux of the issue, I think. Speaking as someone who doesn't have a master (or a FU at all) I find myself wondering if given the option I would take the shortcut or if I would still feel compelled to see the story written out from the beginning. It's interesting because I felt no such need when it came to making Cyrus an Admiral, so I think in part the requirement for FU's to work their way up is a great motivator for good storytelling.

Except when it isn't. Six of one half dozen of the other I suppose.

There's been very good arguments on both sides. Obviously if you open it up you get a lot more flexibility with regards to stories and characters but you take away some of the (already limited) ability of the board to self-regulate on the more ridiculous and power-gaming characters. Obviously there's still methods to deal with that but it shifts much of the burden on to the RPJ's or dealing with things IC. Neither of those is necessarily a bad thing too, it's just sort of different from the way things work now.

 

[Curupira Hawk]

Don't fix what's not broken.

Despite what some people think ( *eyes Tef* ), the Chaos system is already way too simplified for my taste. If it was any easier, it would be a place I don't want to remember. Force User ranks are in the core of solid Star Wars RPing. The training, the development, the promotions. It's one of the reasons why I love writing in this universe. I like the steps, I like growing my characters to get to the point they are. I have a couple of Masters myself, though I have a lot of characters.

And I've personally seen what happens when you *trust* a person to play a Master (coughentoncough), and that's a whole headache. So no, lets never give up on the ranks and promotions. I already hate that NFUs don't have them

 

[Jairus Starvald]

I can write huge essays on this subject, but [member="Ajira Cardei"] and [member="Netherworld"] said it best.

Do it.

It will probably be chaotic for a while, but at the end of the day all that matters on this board is the respect of your fellow peers. I am reading a lot of people saying that if this goes through that suddenly writers are gonna create super overpowered Sith Lord Gods who will ruin things for everyone... but those people already exist and they are doings silly things like that as a Knight or even as a Padawan.

Because at the end of the day, if someone wants to feel powerful, they aren't gonna wait for the Sith Lord tag. They are just gonna do it and have 'fun' with it. So while I think it's a marginally valid point, it's a point that holds no ground on Chaos as it stands now.

Secondly, I am reading people saying things like: 'Well, less people will be writing Padawans.' or 'This will make me way more likely to skip the treasure-trove that is being an acolyte and moving up through the ranks.'

And again, those aren't necessarily unfounded concerns, but at the same time... really? Your character belongs to you and so should your development. If you love the idea of writing a character developing from Paddie to Knight to Master, why would removing the requirements stop you from doing that? All it takes is a little bit of willpower and determination to stay the course.

Nobody should be forced to always start from the bottom, just because a portion of the community 'wants to see a viable padawan population'.

Oh, well... that turned into a moderate essay regardless.


Edit: I just saw a suggestion that could probably take away some of the qualms people right now have about this. It's the following: You only need to get to Master once after which you can make a new character and pick any rank you like. I think that would go a long way towards removing the fears of rampant abuse, because at the end of the day the writers still have to pass through a system at least once and 'prove' themselves responsible, whatever that means.

 

[Netherworld]

[member="Cerita Sarova"]

That suggestion could work really well I think, and should address most of the worries expressed here. Far as I've seen, the main concern is that removing the rank system will remove the filter for the abusers and the 'mature' players (I don't necessarily agree that the system works so well in doing this, but that's besides the point.)

So if the main issue is this, then a compromise like this would satisfy everyone. Run the gauntlet once to prove that you're a reasonable human being and can be entrusted with the 'great power' of Masterhood. After that, the characters you create can start as whatever, since you've already 'proven' that you're not a raving godmodder.

People who wanna progress the usual way can still do so. If that's what you enjoy, I realpy don't see why removing the restrictions would suddenly change that. YMMV, right? Some folks like the evolution from paddie to master. Others get a very specific idea for a character, and sometimes, making them a paddie just makes no sense.