Question How do we fix Rebellions?

[Tefka]

I can’t seem to figure it out.

I think we just kill the whole Minor Faction part of it, to remove the temptation and suss of members creating proxy factions. Proxies are IRL and cool, but no place in Chaos’s honest and cooperative environment… do we make them mini-Annihilations? Shoot me your suggestions, help a brother out.

 

[Onrai]

We don’t. We keep them as is and remind major factions that if you keep minors happy, They won’t have incentive to try and break away part of your territory in an attempt to go major.

 

[Kovacs]

honestly, maybe they'd actually be utilized if they were allowed to be conducted by proxies. It seems to be a fact that major factions are the prime hub of activity so might as well channel it through there? If its a concern, as a means to off-set the former, you might as well decrease/nerf its splash damage like invasions were nerfed/brought back to the usual, imo.

 

[Ellie Mors]

… do we make them mini-Annihilations?

In what sense? Like, once a quarter by a minor faction/whatever/whoever and it turns the area/hex/whatever neutral or something and everyone can be involved?

 

[Starlin Rand]

I may be an idiot for saying this, since I'm not super well-versed on this stuff, but I got the impression that rebellions don't really garner enough interest because people don't show up on the rebel side. It's usually just NPCs who object to a dom by a major faction, and their only purpose is to serve as story fodder - the usual suspects of corrupt local politicians, corpos, patriots/loyalists and ornery locals who either get killed off in a single thread or back down once you reason with them/flex your muscles. If that's the case, then the issue is probably just people not writing characters who have a reason to object to a major faction takeover - and in some of the majors I've been part of, there seems to be a reluctance to write infighting anyway, especially if there's no substantial cause for it story-wise.

Then if there is a reason to object, it's not handled using the rebellion mechanic - such as the NJO trying to break away from the GA, which so far has been just a part of regular faction activity. Mainly because it's been kinda... weirdly peaceful? Lol.

Basically, if rebellions are supposed to be conducted by minor factions within a major, but the majors are generally able to keep their minors happy, what's the point of a rebellion?

 

[Kitter Bitters]

Just ditch the concept completely.

 

[Andien Gale]

Tefka

Make traditional 3-Dom Rebellions available for major factions to participate in for hex neutralization and minors for major status but let minors set up where they want in neutral space as well retaining the option to set up in that hex. Remove proxy rules but make it so minors have to go major.

Why:

Major Faction Involvement: Gives another avenue of RP for majors which is the driving force of pretty much everything that happens on Chaos. They should be able to affect most things that happen on the map.

Minors Choice: A lot of times the hex chosen for a 3rd dom can be unenticing for a minor faction's start point, either for faction lore reasons or its just a one-paragraph wookie stub of a world. Giving minors the option of choice in neutral space to set up gives them a reason to strike out at that major and instead of "taking" the world from the major, gives them a grand entrance to the galactic stage and lets them retain or build lore on a planet they actually want instead of a major faction's leftovers. The choice is the key thing here though.

Remove Proxy Minors go Major: Governments use proxies all the time to dash the hopes of their political enemies. Remove the proxy rule, but with minors having to go major if they win. With rebellions available to major factions anyways if a proxy or allied minor really did do a rebellion, it's because they want to be a separate entity from their parent major, thereby nullifying the secret cabal fear of majors manipulating events ooc to harm other majors.

 

[Pluperfect]

So, I've been away for some time. I tried reading up on what these new 'populate' threads are but eventually I gave up on that.

Anyways, I've often seen minor factions as a fun way for people to get together without necessarily interacting too much with the map and all that comes along with it. I think it is fair that the minor factions serve a relatively harmless role in comparison to the majors. Still, taking away their capacity to launch rebellions might remove a tool in their arsenal which could be fun. Perhaps removing hexes from someone is a bit drastic? A less severe way might be to allow minors to intervene in doms (or populate threads??) to prevent that hex from being annexed.

I think interventions would make sense from a story perspective. Delaying or preventing a hex from being captured doesn't seem as intrusive to the targeted major faction. The hurdle to make use of it might thereby become smaller.

 

[Subject 73 Red]

Chaos’s honest and cooperative environment…

Keep on telling yourself that. You ask for the impossible. Never gonna happen. Keep dreaming.

I think we just kill the whole Minor Faction part of it

That's like screwing over minor factions. One of the fun parts of being in a minor is having the chance to stick it to the big faction boys and jostle the anthill a little. That's the entire fun of it. Why do it if not to stir the pot? It's fun to mess with the majors and see them get all riled up.

suss of members creating proxy factions.

You physically call it a "rebellion". That's exactly what a Rebellion is. A smaller, proxy faction working to overthrow a larger body. You call it a Rebellion, you are physically implying that the best way to get involved in a Rebellion is to be part of a proxy faction. It's physically in the definition. You are encouraging exactly what you don't want to see.

I can’t seem to figure it out.

Make Rebellions more like actual rebellions. You know, for splinter groups from a bigger group to attempt to break off. Some factions have sub-factions. Why not have those go through Rebellions to create a smaller splinter group and attempt to split? Rebellions should have bigger stakes than just "oh you lose a hex you can pretty easily get back". Make it actually effect one side or the other past the map game.

As for actual other Minor factions that aren't splinter groups, let them have something different. Call it like Claiming or something, where they claim a territory, and try to take it away from the large group or something.

also there is no way for Major Factions to actually strike back against Minor factions that do Rebellions so maybe try to fix that.

 

[Arage Bao]

Rebellions are too restricted and easy to avoid for Major Factions.

What if a faction that gets over x amount of hexes sees their territory become more unstable as they have to keep a larger and larger nation kept together. As a result said major faction becomes vulnerable to rebellions in any hex they own. A maximum of y rebellions over z months, if people think it's too punishing for Major Factions.

But that way MFs that don't want to deal with rebellions can simply make sure they remain under x amount of hexes.

This also frees up the map for other factions to pop up. It makes sure smaller Majors aren't in immediate risk of annihilation by either proxy factions or minor factions with a bone to pick.

 

[Gerwald Lechner]

If Rebellions are not being utilized could it be that the community is voting on their place in the map game by simply not using them? Is it is time to do away with them completely?

I would also venture that those most likely to engage in rebellions are either no longer on the site, or running major factions of their own now. Honestly... the payoff for winning a rebellion likely is not worth the effort imo. Other than saying yay as a minor we out wrote a major... the only true benefit is getting to go major. Yet minor factions are often minor factions because they want to avoid dealing with the stuff that comes with being a major faction.

My mind would drift toward coming up with incentives that would appeal to minor factions... if they win a rebellion then they can name 3 hexes that are safe from being the target of a dominion for 90 days. Might be a dumb idea, but may appeal to minors. Maybe the minor faction gets control of the hex the rebel for 90 days before the major can dominion it again. Any solution that actually benefits a minor faction without them having to go major is going to be a win.

 

[Kiff Brayde]

If Annihilations are the ultimate bomb of planets, then Rebellions should be the ultimate bomb of hexes.

Pick your cloud size, let’s say a circle of hexes that is six/seven in total (or scale according to targeted faction size). If the rebellion is successful, these hexes go neutral, but rebellions cannot be used to add territory if the initiating faction is adjacent like with invasions. Give them a similar ruleset to annihilations and you’ve just shooken up the map game without making it too OP. Minor factions can initiate and use said neutral hexes as a starting point in a major application, or major factions can initiate and write stories of formenting rebellion, etc. Let everyone join in for the fun like with annihilations — and you got a recipe for a real good thing. Chaotic, yea, but that’s what it’s all about, right?

(It can also then be used to quash complaints of too little free territory on the map. You want more neutral hexes? Then make them).

 

[Darth Metus]

My two credits:

Rebellions should be to Minors what Invasions are to Majors:

"At any time, a minor faction may declare a rebellion against a major faction."

"Rebellions may Target a single hex within the defender's influence cloud and follow the same announcement/judgement protocol as invasions."

"If successful, the hex is neutralized."

"A minor faction can only launch one Rebellion per 90 day period."

Why do I say this? Well, for one, hopping on a bunch of alts just to mess with a faction's Dominions is the old meta. 2021 Chaos will see those same alts making a major and slugging it out via Invasions. We're past the point of shady dealings - if folks want to scrap, they will.

Second, invasions are a decent chunk of effort. Between a week's notice and a week and change of judging, most turn into a month-long affair. Most rebellions that have occurred are similar in scope. So if a handful of writers want to Yeet a month's worth of time/effort into fighting a major, let them.

Lastly, a 90 day cooldown keeps the divide between major and minor status alive. If you want to brawl more? Go major. If you just want to neutralize that hex in particular, stay minor.

The concern of "well that just opens the floodgates for anybody to wreck a cloud" won't be a factor. Absolute worst case scenario, it's four hexes in a calendar year. Invasion season does a lot more to clouds in a lot less time.

The past year was all about chaos right?

Let it reign.

 

[Ellie Mors]

My two credits:

Rebellions should be to Minors what Invasions are to Majors:

"At any time, a minor faction may declare a rebellion against a major faction."

"Rebellions may Target a single hex within the defender's influence cloud and follow the same announcement/judgement protocol as invasions."

"If successful, the hex is neutralized."

"A minor faction can only launch one Rebellion per 90 day period."

Why do I say this? Well, for one, hopping on a bunch of alts just to mess with a faction's Dominions is the old meta. 2021 Chaos will see those same alts making a major and slugging it out via Invasions. We're past the point of shady dealings - if folks want to scrap, they will.

Second, invasions are a decent chunk of effort. Between a week's notice and a week and change of judging, most turn into a month-long affair. Most rebellions that have occurred are similar in scope. So if a handful of writers want to Yeet a month's worth of time/effort into fighting a major, let them.

Lastly, a 90 day cooldown keeps the divide between major and minor status alive. If you want to brawl more? Go major. If you just want to neutralize that hex in particular, stay minor.

The concern of "well that just opens the floodgates for anybody to wreck a cloud" won't be a factor. Absolute worst case scenario, it's four hexes in a calendar year. Invasion season does a lot more to clouds in a lot less time.

The past year was all about chaos right?

Let it reign.

Sounds good to me.

I would personally keep the same-time dominion thing as it is/was (a conflict being opened up for anyone to get involved with) and rename that for clarity reasons and go with this for actual rebellions. I don't think that third-doms need to have the chance for rebellion/whatever to happen if this form of rebellion is coopted (because then the threat for rebellion is just a constant thing at all times) and also mostly because it never seemed to attract minors to do a rebellion since it relies on a major faction to create that opportunity, which is usually not where minors want to go major in the first place.

But, yeah, if this is what you ( Tefka ) meant by "mini-annihilations" then it sounds like a solid thing to me.

 

[Kiff Brayde]

If Annihilations are the ultimate bomb of planets, then Rebellions should be the ultimate bomb of hexes.

Pick your cloud size, let’s say a circle of hexes that is six/seven in total (or scale according to targeted faction size). If the rebellion is successful, these hexes go neutral, but rebellions cannot be used to add territory if the initiating faction is adjacent like with invasions. Give them a similar ruleset to annihilations and you’ve just shooken up the map game without making it too OP. Minor factions can initiate and use said neutral hexes as a starting point in a major application, or major factions can initiate and write stories of formenting rebellion, etc. Let everyone join in for the fun like with annihilations — and you got a recipe for a real good thing. Chaotic, yea, but that’s what it’s all about, right?

(It can also then be used to quash complaints of too little free territory on the map. You want more neutral hexes? Then make them).

To add onto my post here to better explain some of my reasoning:

I think that the reason rebellions were severely under represented in terms of threads when compared to invasions is that 99% of writers interested in map game are going to be just writing in a major faction, and subsequently 99% of factions interested in map game Once in a while maybe a minor faction will be interested in it, so they rebel. But if they're successful? Congratulations, you're now a major faction and rebellions are no longer an option.

While I feel my plan would work is that it gives major factions and minor factions the opportunity to rebel. It still acts as a way for minor factions to make space to go major should they choose to do so, but its also a tool for Major Factions to do essentially the same thing.

What makes it not super OP for major factions is that it can only neutralize hexes, not give territory, so invasions still remain the meta. Put the same post requirements (200 min from initiating faction + allies or 400 total) and cooldown period (3-4 months) and this won't be a way to ez cloudbreak factions. Given the large hex neutralization potential, the cooldown period could even be edited so that a major faction that was the subject of a rebellion, regardless of its success, may not be targeted for rebellion for another four months. This means that an initiating major/minor faction can continue to be ornery and incite more chaos across the galaxy, but that means that it can't be used to bully a single major faction off the map.

At first I leaned towards a hard thing of a 7-hex "big hex" cloud break (so 1 hex and all adjacent hexes, effect can't be strung out to do big cloud breaks) but that could be unfair to smaller factions hex wise, so another potential would be some sort of scaling system. Of course you can just say 'f the small factions' and make it universal to make it less complicated.

ULTIMATELY imo the rebellion system doesn't work because its basically never going to get initiated in the current ruleset and there isn't really any sort of draw or payoff for it compared to an invasion. Scaling it to be more similar to an annihilation, but with all the added caveats and qualities that make it both extremely consequential but not to the point where it just eats up the meta would mean that it would be something that a lot of factions consider doing and add to the dynamic nature and health of the map game.

Because map game is amaze right?

 

[Tefka]

I think I'm pretty solid on my stance that giving Minor Factions access to the map game was ultimately a bad call.

 

[Kiff Brayde]

Tefka

In that case (which is a fair conclusion) Rebellions still have the potential to provide another unique flavor of PVP thread similar to annihilations, even if they’re only accessible to Major Factions.

 

[Ellie Mors]

I think I'm pretty solid on my stance that giving Minor Factions access to the map game was ultimately a bad call.

Then I would probably either a) just do away with rebellions entirely, or b) convert it into something like Junctions where the thread is open to interaction from other factions, (minor or major, or any element at all) which can keep the thread starter (the major faction launching it) from obtaining the hex they are after. Sort of a PVP Junction, I guess.

If there's concern whether this would get used or have any benefit to the major faction launching the thread (assuming it'd be accepted in such a way that it could willingly be started by the major factions in question and not exist as a punishment mechanic for 4 pve threads or whatever), let the major faction starting the thread get a second, adjacent to the one in question, hex or something. If the major loses then they don't gain a hex, but also don't lose anything either. I assume it'd be too different from an invasion scenario where there's just two sides (or the older/current rebellion mechanic where you'd have to be in a faction of some sort) in order to declare anyone else the victor, but if it was just between major factions I guess I would suggest offering a +1 hex to another major faction participating if the one running the thread loses.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

If minor factions aren't involved I don't see a purpose for rebellions. Get rid of them would be my vote.

 

[Taiia Locke]

I think I'm pretty solid on my stance that giving Minor Factions access to the map game was ultimately a bad call.

Then by all means get rid of rebellions. I know we actively control our expansion to be certain we never fell into rebellion conditions, as I am sure every other major does which would make them quite pointless.