Forcing that Narrative

[Kahlil Noble]

It's been a trend for a while. If a major faction isn't well liked by enough other MFs, you get invasions with a "This is the story deal with it" attitude. I don't know how far back it's been, but I have seen it happen three times personally. The Dominion, The Jen'ari, and The UCM. It always ends up as a "Well this is just how it is." whenever I talk to faction admins and owners about it. They've no desire to work with the other faction to create a fun story for all, chalking it up to giving what their members want, regardless of the expense of the other factions.

So you end up with invasions often ignored, the story potential for the two groups squashed. Something something how it's always been will be a response, I see that. But why does it have to be that way? Invasions have a minimum of a week between being announced and starting, a week that could be spent with both faction admin teams talking about making the story.

The invasion will happen regardless, but why not try to make it an interesting story for all? The faction you're invading will appreciate being able to be part of it, and the members of that faction will be more likely to join and have fun.

Yeah yeah, I know. I keep making these threads. But I don't like conversations about this kind of stuff being just in faction chats or status updates where folks feel salty. This is a roleplay community after all, so it should be discussed civilly among all members who're willing to participate. No pole this time. I just want an honest discussion about why the forum is this way, and how to change it for the betterment of all.

 

[Onrai]

Can't say anything about the Dominion as I don't even recall them. I can at least say the Jen'ari did bring it upon themselves - or rather, Vyrassu brought it upon them due to his persistent rudeness, arrogance, and spitefulness towards anyone and everyone, including faction leaders, faction admins, members of his own faction, and the site staff. The Mandos on the other hand are pretty nice people, and I don't really get the whole dogpile.

 

[Ilias Nytrau]

Cooperation? That's honestly how it used to be, 4 - 5 years ago, here. I was in leadership for three factions at the time - back before such rules preventing that were put in place - and if there was interaction of any kind between factions, it would be hashed out beforehand instead of just dumped on them. Good rapport makes even the most adversarial of IC actions enjoyable, and in a non-sadistic manner. You can hate another faction IC and still get on with them OOC.

Attacking other players or factions for OOC reasons has always been poor form, and it was understood that you did not act on OOC feelings. If you had a problem with someone else like that, you avoided the potential drama. If you didn't have any IC basis of direct confrontation between your faction and another faction, nothing was gonna happen.

The problem here, imo, is groupthink. From my admittedly outside perspective (I haven't exactly been present for at least a good year and a half, thanks life) that is the case. Factions are going after each other on the basis of their own insular beliefs, rather than reaching out to each other, asking if they want to play, and trying to build a narrative that 'everyone' can get on board with and enjoy. And respecting and accepting the no, if for whatever reason, they don't want to.

Just... it costs no-one anything to be a decent human being. Wheaton's Law, people.

 

[Allyson Locke]

I can at least say the Jen'ari did bring it upon themselves - or rather, Vyrassu brought it upon them due to his persistent rudeness, arrogance, and spitefulness towards anyone and everyone, including faction leaders, faction admins, members of his own faction, and the site staff.

That's the thing though, IC shouldn't be justified by OOC. If its OOC deal with it OOC, when you bring it IC people who are just innocent bystanders get involved. That doesn't make it right X person "brought it upon themselves and their faction" - that shouldn't be a reason to forego a proper story and working cooperatively.

 

[Onrai]

There was, though, persistent IC aggression against TSE at least - namely through attempting to use Ayra to lure members of TSE over to the Jen'ari.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

Factions are going after each other on the basis of their own insular beliefs, rather than reaching out to each other.

​I'll agree with this, and the group think.

​And I'll happily say, everyone is to blame. We love villianising each other and saying 'CIS is the problem' or 'UCM is the problem' or the 'Axis Allies are the problem'

Sure they all can be sources of issue, but they aren't the ​problem. We all are honestly at this point. But this is honestly just a symptom of the larger issue of toxicity and how factions have become echo-chambers. I don't really know what should be done in this case, but I know that [even though I've done it] not everybody is terrible. Sure, their might actually be some people who shouldn't be in positions of social influence in this community that are, but we should really be working together.

 

[Ellie Mors]

??? I don't actually know what is being discussed without context.

Regardless of the reasons why invasions happened, I don't recall any instances of "this is the story, deal with it".

The Jenari actually captured and tortured someone who was aligned with the Sith Empire, which instigated a skirmish that was promptly ignored that led to an invasion. The Dominion were occupying planets that the Sith faction wanted, and had invaded the previous Sith faction in that space and eradicated them. I don't think I'd call that anything except IC motivation. I don't have any idea what UCM/Mando stuff is going on, though, as I'm not involved with them at all, so I've got no idea what is being referred to here.

 

[Lok Xiangu]

The forum feels fine as it is.

Sounds like a specific group of people are being loud enough to make their complaints/problems be a mountain out of a molehill.

If they can’t handle it, probably should think about going minor.

 

[Ilias Nytrau]

If the forum felt fine as it is, I wouldn't be taking the time to say otherwise, and threads such as this wouldn't keep popping up.

There is a problem, Mr. Munin. Denying it and passively pointing the finger at those unwilling to put up with it as the problem does nothing constructive.

Just because you can't see it and so many others do, does not mean it doesn't exist. Just because it doesn't affect you personally, does not invalidate its existence.

 

[Kurayami Bloodborn]

I haven't seen the 'this is the story deal with it' attitude referred to here on Chaos over the 4 years I have been here that I recall. My memory isn't the greatest though, and I have seen this happen other places before. I have seen invasions/PvP threads where one side(faction or individual) didn't like the defenses put in place, or something else that was in the narrative of the original post. In those same cases though when they were approached as to what they wanted changed, they would provide no solution or would outright refuse to talk about it any further.

You may wonder what happened, many times the side who felt slighted initially figured out a way to work in what they didn't like instead of attempting to beat a dead horse and work with people who were clearly uninterested in providing a resolution that worked for both sides. What I HAVE seen is people try to use that as an excuse to not edit something that was never referred to or expounded upon before it's sudden and random appearance. In those cases the timing or appearance of certain story elements could be construed, perhaps incorrectly, as an information leak. Such things aren't entirely uncommon sadly. It seems to be pretty common on Discord channels(and previously in Skype groups that were invite only) that information spoken about in terms of possible upcoming invasion plans or other such moves is relayed to the potential target by someone in both channels. This has happened sometimes weeks in advance of an OOC thread being posted, during which time the staff hadn't even come to a complete consensus as to IF an invasion would even occur. When this has happened if one faction decided to invade the other, it had already diminished the chances of one faction being as willing to work with their opponent.

That is the only time I can think of in which one side uses the 'this is our story(usually naught but headcanon), either deal with it or go,' defense to make their actions seem to be ICly motivated when in reality it was due to OOC.

My 2 cents.

 

[Vlyph Corobb]

I dont understand fully. If another writer cant even force another characters death. Then how is it possible to "force" an entire narrative. Besides each and every writer brings something special to the table, this transforms the original narrative into something completely unplanned and that not a bad thing, its pretty awesome. Everyone helps make something new! Whether or not people accept it or attempt to label it is something different and i think this Subject is more along those lines, imo.

If the masses say a Nerf is a Rancor. Do you believe them? For me its all perspective. I haven't experienced this before, least I think. But besides does it all really matter when you yourself have the option and power of deciding your own story for yourself? No amount of words in the Codex, Wiki or anywhere else is the deciding factor. You are.

 

[Lok Xiangu]

[member="Ilias Nytrau"]

And yet it feels weird to see these so called “problems” be surfacing now when I have seen similar occasions during my years on Chaos. The old Sith Empire faced the pressure from both the Republic and the Manalorians. The One Sith faced against the Omega Protectorate, the Republic, and the Mandalorians. The Galactic Alliance had to deal with the First Order, the Sith Empire, and he Galactic Empire. So and so forth.

Was there pressure on those said factions that faced against multiple invasions at once? I wouldn’t doubt it, but they rolled with the punches and didn’t voice their complaints in discussion threads as people are now doing so because they understood the risks and consequences of going major.

But hey, that Inward Perfection mandate does sound rewarding for those that can’t handle the heat.

I don’t know why the forum should change in terms of invasion because of this “Invasion Season”. Like I said, it seems people are making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Kalic Daws]

I'll just say this. The best RPs I've had are when both sides work together to make a great story. One of the possible issue that may have brought this up could be more of the OOC lack of admins working on a story together, and/or folks ignoring story points they don't like. Thankfully never run into it directed straight at me, but I can see where it's happened. How do we fix it? Well, kinda hard to make a rule on it, and I come from smaller RP sites where this ain't an issue, so honestly don't have the straightest of answers for it. Only think I can say is try to respect that the people you're RPing with have stories they wanna tell too, and that pushing them into a corner of what their characters, or factions, can be isn't gonna make things better.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Lok Munin"]

"It was fine then, so it should be okay now."

Which would make sense, but the community is ever evolving and changing. What flew then doesn't necessarily fly now, if people don't want it to.

Also, this thread has nothing to do with multiple invasions. There's a whole other thread for that, so I'd like to keep this one on topic.

That topic being how we, as a community, can start making invasions a place for stories to be written by both sides instead of one side floundering because they were dropped a story they had no input in or even refusing to write.


In the instance of the Jen'ari, good ol' V decided that he was above talking to everyone else, shutting off the doors to his faction and well. His faction suffered for it. Invasions were won by disqualification because he refused to let his people write. That's not how it should go down. Both sides should be willing to talk and make a good story for all their members to participate in.

These three past invasions against the UCM? The talks between admins was little more then "This is what we're doing, deal." The CIC refused to speak with the UCM admins to make a story, the CIS dropped their rules and told the admins to get over it, and the SJO chose their own narration over a combined narration for their own factions sake, others be damned.


Those are four examples of what needs to change on Chaos. Invasions have the potential to be pretty amazing, if people can work together. Look at TSE v ORC, a prime example of amazing invasions. Why? Because the faction admins spoke to one another and didn't let their personal feelings get in the way of their whole factions RP.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Kahlil Zambrano"]

Yeah yeah, I know. I keep making these threads.

You do. Making the same point repeatedly with small changes doesn't make them not the same.

As staff have made clear, the 'issue' you are raising is not really as big a problem as you are making out.

Whilst I can encourage factions to work together and it's good when they do, I'm not going to try and force them to do some elaborate inter party plotting. Some factions do, so it comes down to people, and it's really hard to wave a magic wand and make people into a big shiny happy family. Some people don't like other people, and that's fine, this isn't some dystopia.

We have mandates now which suits factions who don't want multiple invasions.

If you have a concrete suggestion for how to improve the ruleset, let's hear it! I consider all suggestions with staff, even if not all of them are approved.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

As I said in the first post, this is suppose to be a discussion on how that issue could be addressed. I'm not looking to change the rules, just trying to get people talking. I've already said this has nothing to do with multiple invasions, just the general attitude factions can have between each other. If you're telling me it's pointless to try and get people to talk, then this thread has no purpose.

 

[WolfMortum]

Regarding Invasions, I don’t know many factions that will willingly volunteer to be invaded and chance the loss of a hex they’ve worked towards in their previous dominion of said territory, thus there is always going to be an absence of choice and a sense of apprehension about being on the defensive side of these. The Silver Jedi Order were forced to deal with three separate invasions in the past just as the UCM are having to do now. That said, the Admin of the SJO have held the starting date off until the previous two led by the CiS and CiC had been concluded or were otherwise drawing to a close, for the sake of the opposing side’s ability to participate.

As for pushing a narrative, the Silvers have their views that differ from every other faction, as each of us do being of different and unique factions and group identities. From the perspective of the SJO, our invasion was justified by three individual skirmishes, two of which were against worlds of the SJO, and one of which was questionable (a set up, yet resulted in no conclusive evidence for the Silvers to identify those responsible). H’ratth hit us next and become the second confirmed act of violence on a large scale, for which we are now taking a stand against. I’ve done my best to explain our stance both OOC and IC in this thread, for those who might be interested.

Would I prefer to work with both sides mutually? Absolutely. It would make things a hell of a lot easier to jump into these forms of threads and major faction interactions. The map-game would be much more enjoyable than having to deal with the amount of drama that I have been lately. I much prefer to focus on the IC, and with easy communication between groups, that comes far easier. The problem is that people are always likely to hold different opinions, and while “Agreeing to disagree” sounds reasonable and mature, it can unfortunately be difficult for some of Chaos’ writers as I’ve recently discovered, perhaps because text can be easily misunderstood, and while someone may be speaking entirely calmly, someone else might take this as antagonism of inflammatory.

I don’t support forced narratives in any sense, however in the SJO’s case with this latest invasion, the In-Character justification from our perspective is a reasonable cause to head this movement. We’re not forcing anyone in terms of how they respond, and it’s everyone’s right to choose whether they participate or not in these threads. Purely from an In-Character perspective, “acts of terorism and aggression need to be countered by the Lightside, so that law and order can be maintained in the galaxy”. Eshan and H’ratth (Leaving out Umbara in this case because it wasn’t the UCM), these actions are bringing consequences and as Silver Jedi, we chose not to ignore them.

This is coming from my personal perspective however, and concerning the SJO specifically. Being the internet and being Chaos, people may well disagree. This is what happens when numerous different and individual people come together, each with their own beliefs and perspectives. In an ideal world, I’d love to always be on the same page because I detest having to deal with drama.

I’ve done so lately simply due to my responsibilities as a faction admin, which have been taken as me pushing our narrative from what I’ve heard. Yes, I’m supporting my Faction. No, that doesn’t make me biased towards other groups or individuals and I’m sorry if people have gotten this impression but that ain’t me and most people know that.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

It's great getting people to talk, but that's not what this thread is.

So from now, this thread is:

What constructive ways can we get factions to discuss things which does not require rules?

We'll see if anything comes of that.

 

[Madalena Antares]

The only way that is going to change is if people are going to change themselves about it. Wanna see that happen? Do a lot of threads that involve other factions and show them how the OOC portion is done.

 

[Lok Xiangu]

[member="Kahlil Zambrano"]

Then I recommend looking at invasions more carefully and reading the rules again. As Veiere said, every faction has their own narrative and perspective in an invasion. The invading faction has their narrative and so does the defending one.

So no, no one is forcing their narrative on the opposing party. Simply just building up their story to make it more preferable to the judge.

Valiens and Veiere perfectly said that. Don’t know what else you’re looking for in this discussion.