Coolest Wookie
This is why i only put half my time in Factions, Because the other have is all politics and drama..
[member="Captain Larraq"] Thanks for the simple summary
[member="Captain Larraq"] Thanks for the simple summary
Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos
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Why Cloudbreaking Rules Are Horrible And Need To Go
- Thread starter Ayden Cater
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W A N D E R
Faction clouds do not defect to other factions when a faction loses its cloud based on inactivity or anything that is not an invasion. They literally cease to be, becoming a big empty space for others to dominion within. If we're talking about multiple invasions on each of these planets, then sure, they'd be ceded to those factions responsible. But even in the cloudbreaking scenario, the entire cloud does not become a part of the faction responsible.Alexander Nester said:
Captain Larraq said:
I agree with this.
Agatha Nestor
Character
[member="Cira"]
Alright, got more time so I'll try to expand on my idea a bit. I'll just use visual aids to make this a bit easier, both for me to properly convey what I'm trying to say, and for others to understand without creating confusion. To start off, please note that every planet denominated A is the capital of the faction that is being invaded in each scenario. Without further ado, case 1.
Imagine this example as being the entire map, as in, there is nothing beyond what is shown. Green is the invader and blue is the defender. The invader aims to conquer the planet D. If they are successful, they have practically driven a wedge between the Capital and planet C. Let us assume now that the Invader lays siege to C. By doing so, they will slowly erode the planets defenses and infrastructure, destroying supply depots, military installations, food production, etc. This can be accomplished without a thread. In doing so, it will take the Invader approximately 2-3 weeks of real time of constant sieging before the planet falls over to them. The catch is, while the siege is ongoing, the Invader will receive less troops and supplies for any further battle that may go on in any planet.
Say that the defender is now going to attack the world Z. If the invader does not lift the siege, what would normally be a battle between, let's say, 10 unique writers for each side with a maximum ship length of 2000, shall go as following :
The Faction of Defender has at it's disposal :
Another example. Green is the Defender, Blue the Invader, and Gray is a third party, neutral in the conflict. The invader conquers the planet of B and now has the planet of C under siege. Same rules as before applies, if the Defender cannot supply C, it will slowly fall into enemy hands without a fight. But now, with the introduction of Grey, the Defender has the possibility of negotiating with them in order to be granted military access through their space, in an effort to supply C. If Grey accepts, then C will be supplied through their territory and will not have the siege rules applied to it. For one thing, it brings diplomacy into account in warfare, for another, it can allow smaller factions the ability to prosper due to strangling one or more factions embroiled in war by the balls. It will make starting out surrounded by multiple factions more appealing than starting in a corner away from others.
Alright, got more time so I'll try to expand on my idea a bit. I'll just use visual aids to make this a bit easier, both for me to properly convey what I'm trying to say, and for others to understand without creating confusion. To start off, please note that every planet denominated A is the capital of the faction that is being invaded in each scenario. Without further ado, case 1.
Imagine this example as being the entire map, as in, there is nothing beyond what is shown. Green is the invader and blue is the defender. The invader aims to conquer the planet D. If they are successful, they have practically driven a wedge between the Capital and planet C. Let us assume now that the Invader lays siege to C. By doing so, they will slowly erode the planets defenses and infrastructure, destroying supply depots, military installations, food production, etc. This can be accomplished without a thread. In doing so, it will take the Invader approximately 2-3 weeks of real time of constant sieging before the planet falls over to them. The catch is, while the siege is ongoing, the Invader will receive less troops and supplies for any further battle that may go on in any planet.
Say that the defender is now going to attack the world Z. If the invader does not lift the siege, what would normally be a battle between, let's say, 10 unique writers for each side with a maximum ship length of 2000, shall go as following :
The Faction of Defender has at it's disposal :
- 10 unique writers
- 2000 maximum ship length
- 6 Unique writters
- 1400 maximum ship length.
Another example. Green is the Defender, Blue the Invader, and Gray is a third party, neutral in the conflict. The invader conquers the planet of B and now has the planet of C under siege. Same rules as before applies, if the Defender cannot supply C, it will slowly fall into enemy hands without a fight. But now, with the introduction of Grey, the Defender has the possibility of negotiating with them in order to be granted military access through their space, in an effort to supply C. If Grey accepts, then C will be supplied through their territory and will not have the siege rules applied to it. For one thing, it brings diplomacy into account in warfare, for another, it can allow smaller factions the ability to prosper due to strangling one or more factions embroiled in war by the balls. It will make starting out surrounded by multiple factions more appealing than starting in a corner away from others.
Captain Larraq
Capitalist
[member="Alexander Nester"]
What you're talking about is already a part of the board. They are called Dominions and you are expected to work for them, not just handwave them to background noise because you won an invasion.
What you're talking about is already a part of the board. They are called Dominions and you are expected to work for them, not just handwave them to background noise because you won an invasion.
Agatha Nestor
Character
[member="Captain Larraq"]
I meant as a replacement to the current, get cut off, lose a good part of your faction due to it.
I meant as a replacement to the current, get cut off, lose a good part of your faction due to it.
Captain Larraq
Capitalist
[member="Alexander Nester"]
I get that... But the IC story of what's going on for each of these planets needs to be told IC in active threads. Which boils down to dominions.
It should be up to the writers to get off their butts, work together, and go tell those stories. Otherwise... the planet goes neutral because nobody was willing to 'work for it.'
I get that... But the IC story of what's going on for each of these planets needs to be told IC in active threads. Which boils down to dominions.
It should be up to the writers to get off their butts, work together, and go tell those stories. Otherwise... the planet goes neutral because nobody was willing to 'work for it.'
W A N D E R
[member="Alexander Nester"]
What [member="Captain Larraq"] is saying is that once a faction loses territory via Invasion, the only area that the invading faction obtains is the planet they invaded. All other planets become neutral if they are lost (in the scenario of cloudbreaking). We do not allow people to "collect territory through wins". As I highlighted before, this is why we have dominions - and it should stay that way. Handwaving or not, you should not be able to magically collect entire sectors by conquering a planet that is light-years away.
What [member="Captain Larraq"] is saying is that once a faction loses territory via Invasion, the only area that the invading faction obtains is the planet they invaded. All other planets become neutral if they are lost (in the scenario of cloudbreaking). We do not allow people to "collect territory through wins". As I highlighted before, this is why we have dominions - and it should stay that way. Handwaving or not, you should not be able to magically collect entire sectors by conquering a planet that is light-years away.
Valiens Nantaris
Head Admin
I've not read most of this thread, but I'll tell you the reason this was done.
It was done because invasions are hard. Invasions are few and time consuming, so conquering even a couple of planets at a time doesn't seem to make much of an impact.
Thus, to add some urgency and danger to invasions, this rule was created.
Is it ideal? Is it realistic? Probably not, but it raises the stakes involved.
And you know what? It's never actually happened yet. Ever.
It was done because invasions are hard. Invasions are few and time consuming, so conquering even a couple of planets at a time doesn't seem to make much of an impact.
Thus, to add some urgency and danger to invasions, this rule was created.
Is it ideal? Is it realistic? Probably not, but it raises the stakes involved.
And you know what? It's never actually happened yet. Ever.
Arrbi Betna
Marauder
[member="Valiens Nantaris"]
It's almost happened to the OS twice now.
It's almost happened to the OS twice now.
Captain Larraq
Capitalist
And thus we have the danger of breaking weaton's law.Arrbi Betna said:
Coolest Wookie
Everything has a Reason for being
Cira
Best Onion
Cloud breaking has succeeded in the following instances.
There are other potential times that this has happened -- but for what has actually happened, this is it.
Attempts to break cloud in a big mass?
These two are the ones that amuse me because LotF, Mandos, Pubs, and OP attempted to do simultaneous invasions at the same time, using OP as the "distraction". Yet they didn't think this was pretty karked up to begin with, eh?
And every time, the stakes are high and people do the invasions. It adds some urgency and danger to invasions.
As [member="Valiens Nantaris"], Is it ideal? Is it realistic? Probably not, but it raises the stakes involved.
There are other potential times that this has happened -- but for what has actually happened, this is it.
- It happened to the Horde during the invasion of Silken Asteroids. (they lost a tentacle)
- It happened to ASA during the invasion of Vergeso Asteroids. (same they lost a tentacle)
Attempts to break cloud in a big mass?
- Lotf vs OP during the Invasion of Eriadu. ( would have cut off one third of their map)
- ASA with Naboo ( would have broken off the planets from Naboo on down)
- Mandos vs TSO during the invasion of Morellia ( who barely had 5 unique writers to counter) ended up turning into a skirmish because the Mandos were not one hex next to the capital-- but they went into it wanting to cloud break them.
- And currently, OS is attempting to cloud break the Pubs through a series of invasions, so far they have 3 under their belt.
These two are the ones that amuse me because LotF, Mandos, Pubs, and OP attempted to do simultaneous invasions at the same time, using OP as the "distraction". Yet they didn't think this was pretty karked up to begin with, eh?
- Mandos vs OS during the invasion of Teta. ( would have cut all but one of their map)
- OP vs OS during the invasion of Coruscant. (Same deal, simultaneous as Alderaan )
- Pubs vs OS during the invasion of Alderaan. (Sade deal, simultaneous as Coruscant)
And every time, the stakes are high and people do the invasions. It adds some urgency and danger to invasions.
As [member="Valiens Nantaris"], Is it ideal? Is it realistic? Probably not, but it raises the stakes involved.
Eternal Father
In response to the assumption that cloudbreaking a faction to be less than half of what it once was with just one Invasion, Tefka in the past has informed me that he had no intentions on cloudbreaking major chunks of a faction without a substantive amount of Invasions being done beforehand.
So at the time, he was basically saying that the example shown in the lead would most likely not result in a major cloudbreak. Don't take this as a guarantee that it won't until you hear from himself about the issue.
Going off of that, I imagine there would be more confidence in the rule if it was explained that the Board Owner could decide the severity of the cloudbreak at his discretion - since the picture shown in the lead would warrant a cloud break anyway yet not at the severity assumed.
In the One Sith's case with the Republic, though, that's a different story since the conflict has been ongoing with several Invasions since June of this year.
So at the time, he was basically saying that the example shown in the lead would most likely not result in a major cloudbreak. Don't take this as a guarantee that it won't until you hear from himself about the issue.
Going off of that, I imagine there would be more confidence in the rule if it was explained that the Board Owner could decide the severity of the cloudbreak at his discretion - since the picture shown in the lead would warrant a cloud break anyway yet not at the severity assumed.
In the One Sith's case with the Republic, though, that's a different story since the conflict has been ongoing with several Invasions since June of this year.
Agatha Nestor
Character
[member="Darth Sinna"]
[member="Captain Larraq"]
Ah, I understand. My bad then, ignore my retardation.
[member="Captain Larraq"]
Ah, I understand. My bad then, ignore my retardation.
Valiens Nantaris
Head Admin
Oh yeah...those guys. Horde managed to collapse regardless or despite losing a tentacle though.
So you're saying that when two factions engage in warfare some have the opportunity to completely annihilate another? How novel.
The ability to screw over people exists regardless of the cloud-breaking rule being present. The very fact that you communicated with Salem shows that OOC communication checks back against this kind of "screwing over."
It's also probably bad to intertwine the OOC and the IC with factions, because with the existence of factions it is quite simply impossible for everyone to get their way, hold hands, and sing kumbaya, much as that would be preferable. There will inevitably be wars between two factions and there will inevitably be conflicts of interests in which certain people are unwilling to budge OOCly because they prioritize their story over your story.
This is why we have invasion rules and cloud breaking rules. Because if we can't all get along all the time, then we have to start treating it more like a game of risk. Otherwise we have people upsetting the structure. While it's fine to say "That action never happened to my character, because it's my character and I don't like it," on an individual scale. It is not ok to have people say "My faction never lost that territory because I don't like your faction and I don't like where your story is going. Mine is better." Why? Because when it comes to entire factions holding sway over entire sections of space it suddenly effects everyone.
Of course, we could just go with the ignoring route. In which case, Factions ignore the other actions of factions because they don't like them, individuals begin to ignore a faction's control over a planet because they disagree and prioritize their story first, and the whole system falls to shambles.
This is why limits and rules are good, this is why invasion rules are good, and this is why cloud breaking rules that "screw people over" aren't really all that shocking in the grand scheme of things. In other words, limiting factions is good. As is making war a more costly venture.
It's bad enough having to deal with 6th ranger special snowflakes on an individual scale when they pull something stupid and don't like the results. At least on a faction level scale we get to see that actions have consequences.
Let's keep it that way.
The ability to screw over people exists regardless of the cloud-breaking rule being present. The very fact that you communicated with Salem shows that OOC communication checks back against this kind of "screwing over."
It's also probably bad to intertwine the OOC and the IC with factions, because with the existence of factions it is quite simply impossible for everyone to get their way, hold hands, and sing kumbaya, much as that would be preferable. There will inevitably be wars between two factions and there will inevitably be conflicts of interests in which certain people are unwilling to budge OOCly because they prioritize their story over your story.
This is why we have invasion rules and cloud breaking rules. Because if we can't all get along all the time, then we have to start treating it more like a game of risk. Otherwise we have people upsetting the structure. While it's fine to say "That action never happened to my character, because it's my character and I don't like it," on an individual scale. It is not ok to have people say "My faction never lost that territory because I don't like your faction and I don't like where your story is going. Mine is better." Why? Because when it comes to entire factions holding sway over entire sections of space it suddenly effects everyone.
Of course, we could just go with the ignoring route. In which case, Factions ignore the other actions of factions because they don't like them, individuals begin to ignore a faction's control over a planet because they disagree and prioritize their story first, and the whole system falls to shambles.
This is why limits and rules are good, this is why invasion rules are good, and this is why cloud breaking rules that "screw people over" aren't really all that shocking in the grand scheme of things. In other words, limiting factions is good. As is making war a more costly venture.
It's bad enough having to deal with 6th ranger special snowflakes on an individual scale when they pull something stupid and don't like the results. At least on a faction level scale we get to see that actions have consequences.
Let's keep it that way.
Captain Larraq
Capitalist
To be fair, the Mandalorians had been looking for a fight for ages and that was literally the -only- OS planet within range for the Mandalorians to invade, and at the time we had no idea that TLotF were looking to invade as well (and nobody expected that many Mandalorians to pop on of the woodwork).Cira said:
The prospect of territory loss didn't really up up until later. And personally, I just assumed you'd swap capitals from Coruscant to Csilla so that you'd only lose 2-3 planets instead of 9 or so.
Zatten Black
The Zeltrochiss
In the game of clouds, you win or you get split...
Seriously, though. It's not a huge problem. If your faction is active enough to conduct or defend from invasions, it's active enough to dominion a planet to thicken out the cloud. Not saying 'you had the chance, pull the trigger', but don't whine about it.
Seriously, though. It's not a huge problem. If your faction is active enough to conduct or defend from invasions, it's active enough to dominion a planet to thicken out the cloud. Not saying 'you had the chance, pull the trigger', but don't whine about it.