Why Cloudbreaking Rules Are Horrible And Need To Go

[Ayden Cater]

So these rules have been around for a while and, frankly, they're terrible. Not so much in wording, but more by design. Roleplaying should be a community-building experience, but the cloudbreaking ruleset runs completely antithetical to that ideal.

It encourages, and rewards, acts that completely screw over other groups of people

Several months ago, before the Invasion of Druckenwell had even been launched, I began talking with [member="Salem Norongachi"] about a number of little things. Call me old fashioned, but when I'm about to go to war I try to have a report with the other side. It makes sense, given that they'll be the one I talk to in case things go haywire, that that be the Faction Leader. Given that he was newly, and suddenly, promoted to the position Nick was understandably flustered, as well as harboring some trepidation knowing that an invasion was on the horizon.

At this same time, it was suggested to me by a handful of people that I inflict the maximum amount of damage to the CIS that I could, as soon as I could. To that end, they wanted me to invoke the power of cloudbreaking to hit a minor world to the south of Bothawui, a world called Krant.

What would it have looked like if I had listened to that advice? Something about like this.

All that white would have been CIS space immediately, and irrevocably, lost. With one invasion, I could have eliminated 95% of CIS space. Instead? I spoke with Salem.

Spoiler

[7/15/2014 6:26:29 PM] The Goat // Ayden Cater: Also; tip
[7/15/2014 6:26:57 PM] Nick (Sal) Williams- The Glorious Basterd: I'm always looking for tips >_>
[7/15/2014 6:27:07 PM] Nick (Sal) Williams- The Glorious Basterd: I accept cash or credit cards...
[7/15/2014 6:27:36 PM] The Goat // Ayden Cater: You'll want to do a Dominion of Monestary or Void Station.
[7/15/2014 6:27:48 PM] The Goat // Ayden Cater: Cause I have, right now
[7/15/2014 6:28:00 PM] The Goat // Ayden Cater: A way to cut the CIS down 95%
[7/15/2014 6:28:05 PM] The Goat // Ayden Cater: with one invasion
[7/15/2014 6:28:39 PM] The Goat // Ayden Cater: Direct your attention to Krant
[7/15/2014 6:28:42 PM] Nick (Sal) Williams- The Glorious Basterd: TO THE MAP!
[7/15/2014 6:28:47 PM] The Goat // Ayden Cater: Just south of your capital
[7/15/2014 6:29:46 PM] Nick (Sal) Williams- The Glorious Basterd: *nod* I can see it
[7/15/2014 6:30:06 PM] The Goat // Ayden Cater: If OP hit that
[7/15/2014 6:30:15 PM] The Goat // Ayden Cater: We would cut off just about everything the CIS owns
[7/15/2014 6:31:00 PM] Nick (Sal) Williams- The Glorious Basterd: I really wish Guy had been more...strategic about this expansion
[7/15/2014 6:31:02 PM] Nick (Sal) Williams- The Glorious Basterd: Its a damn mess
[7/15/2014 6:31:10 PM] The Goat // Ayden Cater: Yeah.

The idea that, with one move, I could be responsible for almost completely eradicating the setting for an entire group of people who want nothing more than to write stories with one another... It's disgusting. To think that anyone would think in terms of screwing over that many people at once is just horrible. And this leads me into the next point.

It completely undermines the point of a capital planet

Capital planets are a little bit harder to invade, on paper. You need another 100 posts (Given the length of 90% of invasions, this isn't even an issue for a normal invasion) and the defenders are given another 5 aid slots. Not anything grossly over the top, but it's a good balancing point. Unless you just decide to encircle the enemy capital and take away 95% of their territory. Why bother invading the capital when you can just hit a few minor, undefended worlds, and neutralize the capital without ever having to hit it.And this leads me into the third point.

It flies in the face of nearly all canon evidence shown for how wars develop and proceed in Star Wars

The Clone Wars took 3 years to conclude. The Rebels fought with the Empire for almost 7 years, from the Battle of Yavin IV to the taking of Coruscant and the founding of the New Republic in 6.5 ABY. The Sith-Imperial War took three years to conclude. Wars in Star Wars take a long time to run their course. Even the Second Galactic Civil War, a comparatively minor war, took more than a year to conclude.

Obviously such matters aren't going to reflect well into a roleplaying setting, but there is one thing to note. When Thrawn launched his campaign, one of his earliest moves was to blockade Coruscant, effectively cutting it off from the rest of the New Republic. But that didn't mean that all of the New Republic fell apart. It could still communicate with the reset of the state throughout the war.

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In general, I feel like cloudbreaking rules were a nice attempt at injecting some thought to invasions, but ultimately it harms more than it helps. Before, an invasion might result in losing one or two more planets to connect the dots. Now you can go away for a weekend and come back to find your entire faction has been wiped out. That's not fun. That's not SWRP.

 

[Mrrew]

I didn't even know this rule existed... Frankly, it's horrible. All the hard work someone puts into building a faction could be destroyed in one thread? Dozens if nhots hundreds of threads could be made obselete with one? The hell?

I'm glad this thread wasn't about getting rid of influence clouds, though,t hat's what I thought it was at first.

 

[Quietus]

All good points. All things I can definitely agree with.

However, I feel as though your first example sets up the community to have little faith in its Leaders. I could be wrong, but I don't feel as though Tefka would allow a 95% loss of any faction with one meager invasion. I feel as though Tefka is more on board with your vision that things should be fun, things should be fair, things should be for story - not for OOC glory - as seen by his many IC exploits in a multitude of factions.

Understand that he's a roleplayer, too. He sees these things from your side, too. I'm sure he wouldn't allow things to go that far. Have a little more faith in the man in charge (of the map).

 

[Onrai]

I don't see the issue. Cut off the small part of the cloud and move the capital to a world in the bigger section. Cloudbreaking is going to, eventually, turn into the only way a faction will ever win a conflict with another faction.

Besides, is that not the fair way to do this? They keep the majority of territory, but still lose part of their cloud.

 

[Agatha Nestor]

Would it not make more sense to simply impose penalties on whoever ends up encircled, depending on the region encircled, it's avenues of movement, and the planets in question, such as a lower post limit to conquer the planet for the invaders, or removal of a few aid slots for the defender. For example, if the OP were to conquer Zhar in the west, they would completely encircle the planet of Daan and, as such, the CIS would get no reinforcements, which will possibly translate into fewer aid slots, and fewer ship numbers. But a fight for the planet would still need to pan out due to already set in place fortifications, garrisons, and units that retreated there.

 

[Ayden Cater]

[member="Enigma"]

Based on what observations? I've seen nothing to indicate such an outcome. Few invasions have ever needed mediation to decide a victor.

[member="Alexander Nester"]

A nice idea, but that first requires a system in place to regular things like ships and reinforcements. I could understand a gradual scaling back of controlled territory, bit by bit, but not an outright loss.

 

[Hailyn]

Does cloudbreaking immediately destroy a faction, or are they required to move to a new capital planet?
[member="Ayden Cater"]

 

[Onrai]

[member="Ayden Cater"]

And few invasions have ever resulted in an actual decisive outcome. The One Sith have been going all in against the Republic, even taken their capital, but their only chance of ever trimming down the Republic so they can expand in its place is if they break its cloud.

I can also point out that invasions that have not led to cloud-breaking rarely if ever make a significant impact on the course of a faction war. No blow critical enough will have been struck. Wars don't end unless there's a clear winner defined as such by a significant amount of post enemy territory. Besides, how else are new major factions going to crop up?

 

[Ayden Cater]

[member="Darth Sinna"]

Last I checked, the territory cut off from the capital would be immediately lost. An counter-invasion to re-establish a link between clouds might prevent the loss of territory, but if it happens the night before the map is updated, then there is no time to recover.

 

[Ayden Cater]

[member="Enigma"]

You're a mixed bag of opinions, you know that? One thread you advocate a need to completely fill in the map, the next you wonder how new factions are supposed to come up.

Regardless, there are always options for new factions to sprout up, including existing factions giving up territory.

 

[Agatha Nestor]

[member="Ayden Cater"]

A simple Logistics / Supply lines system shouldn't be too hard to set up in place if you were to use a percentage based system I imagine. Say you got two factions entering an open state of war, neither being embroiled in direct conflict for a good portion of time beforehand but gearing up for it. Both factions start at 100% capacity, IC and OOC leaders/officers/generals of a faction meet up and decide how to split up their resources on what front. You lose a battle, you gotta decide where to retreat based on how the opponent positioned himself in the fight. If he blocks the west and north, you gotta go south or east. You lose a battle without accomplishing any objectives, class it as a major defeat, lose some 5% capacity. Lose all your capacity, lose the ability to wage a war. Get capacity back, say, every week, 1% per planet you control.

'Least it doesn't sound that bad in my head, although it's definitely more gamey than what others will like.

 

[Quietus]

I think the other point here, too, is that you exercised your ability to act upon your fellow rpers the way you would like to be acted upon by them, Ayden.

Everyone here has the choice to be a jerk or to be a fair and fun rp partner. Many members here could learn from your example.

 

[Ayden Cater]

[member="Alexander Nester"]

Certainly a nice theory, but as you admitted already it would be a bit more game-y than many others would like.

I'm a proponent of talking to the other side. When no one talks to the other side, it's easy for the conflict to spiral out of control from a simple IC battle to an OOC drama-fest. As Salem can attest, I very much prefer talking to the other side, to establish relations and understanding with each other. I'm not in this to destroy peoples work and make them suffer to fuel my ego. I want to write stories.

 

[Onrai]

[member="Ayden Cater"]

Yeah, that worked well with the Fel Imperium. I remember that fondly, as well as the aftermath and other stuff it led to...

It's a cycle. Once the pie is full, people are gonna have to invade for territory. They slice off part of the pie, and it gets filled in with major factions, since I doubt the majors will go on a dominion binge with a full map. I can advocate for both, Ayden. They're not entirely incompatible.

 

[Ayden Cater]

They... kind of are. If the map is full, you'd have no room for new major factions.

And the Fel Imperium failed because it did not have the support it needed, both from its leaders and its members. It's not uncommon for new major factions to fail, often because of a mis-step by the faction leader. And I don't say this from some pillar of righteousness.

Back before even the Protectorate was a thing, I tried to carve out a slice of the map for my own faction. I had this big, grand vision. Ultimately, it failed and I knew I was responsible for that. But I learned my lesson from it and I kept on.

 

[Agatha Nestor]

[member="Ayden Cater"]

Can't please everybody I'm afraid, especially since I'm one that would be more than okay with a fluctuating market / economy system and proper resource management for warfare.

 

[Ayden Cater]

[member="Alexander Nester"]

I'm another one who would like such a system. I've got every planet in OP's territory listed with their noteworthy traits.

 

[Onrai]

[member="Ayden Cater"]

I was referring to the Fel Imperium bing initially carved out of what was at the time Sith Empire space.

And if the map is full, then a faction is cloudbroken - bam, there's a significant amount of space to put new major factions in. Once the initial dominion binge is over, and all territory's been claimed, then cloudbreaking becomes key to getting new factions on the board.

I'd consider the Protectorate to be the "big grand vision" you speak of, or at lest an iteration of it.

 

[Siobhan Kerrigan]

[member="Enigma"]

I think [member="Ayden Cater"] is referring to the Syndicate. It was a crime syndicate faction he formed before Omega Pyre started. Centred on Corellia, Cato Neimoidia etc.


However, they merged pretty early ICly due to a deal with Cira. Hence how OP got Corellia.

 

[Onrai]

[member="Siobhan Kerrigan"]

Hence my reference to it being at least an iteration of what his vision was.