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Valen Space Battle Aftermath

As you are no doubt aware, I had to close the space battle thread after things started to unravel. While this isn't the ideal circumstance, it is part of a learning curve. Trying to manage such a large battle is hard, and I think some mistakes were made in both design and execution by myself and others.

However, I am determined to get a space battle for us fleeters going and make it work. To do that, I need to work our what went wrong and fix it.

The Problems
  • Allowing alts to proliferate. I had hoped this would work out to our advantage by having larger forces involved but in the end it just complicated issues, and in the end broke the battle.
  • Trying to balance the scenario. I stand by the need to do this, but as it turned out it didn't quite work out as I'd hoped.
  • Map was confusing and complex. This I understand only too well, as it took me hours to do, and if it was complex for me it was for you as well I'm sure!
  • No one taking damage. I'd hoped writers would be a little more responsive here, but perhaps I wasn't clear in my expectations too.
  • Scenario objectives too...fragile. I may look at the sort of objectives I use here.
  • Betrayal. It was expected but...divisive.

My Potential Solutions
  • Cut down alts dramatically. One writer, one fleet, but make the fleets bigger to give each person a devastating array to use.
  • I think with alts dramatically reduced we should be able to give everyone the same amount of ships and work on objectives everyone can play for.
  • Make the map easier to understand...somehow. I'll need to work on this. My system wasn't bad and with some tuning might work better.
  • I am going to suggest I determine the damage. I think the general consensus is that nobody was taking hits, "because the other side isn't". Yes, it's not ideal, but I will likely be fairer than determining your own fleet's losses. The current method did not work.
  • We need more substantial objectives! Planets, big ships, that sort of thing.
  • Next time I will either lock alliances or have it be one faction against another.

I would value questions, comments, suggestions, and also if you would consider going for round 2 somewhere around the first half of February.

Anyone who wants to fleet is welcome to join. We'll make this work.

It will be...3rd time lucky I think!

@[member="Vexander Graves"]
@[member="Kiskla Grayson"]
@[member="Yusan Fenn"]
@[member="Shane Sisko Skirata"]
@[member="Ayden Cater"]
@[member="Jonathan Walsh"]
@[member="Cyrus Tregessar"]
@[member="Akio Kahoshi"]
@[member="Shinjū Aÿasha"]
@[member="Sargon Vynea"]
@[member="The Wrathful One"]
@[member="Mara Linth"]
@[member="Darth Arcis"]
@[member="Circe Savan"]
@[member="Aken Bosch"]
@[member="Hawke Katamirth"]
@[member="Aedan Miles"]
@[member="Arcturus Procyon"]


Eater of the Dead
I had fun and in truth it wasn't to terrible. The prize could only go to one faction and there was bound to be fights. I would enjoy another fleeting event

Akio Kahoshi

Peace through Order
I pretty much agree with all points. Ultimately writers bowing out was unfortunate. The breaking of alliances was also ultimately game breaking. Locked alliances or free for all for sure, and if locked alliances all allied forces should benefit from a win. Everyone waned the ship, and chaos unraveled the thread.
It's Real to Pretend
I intend to do a fleet battle that won't end up like this, but could use some help getting it started. Anyone willing to help me out?

Judas of Vahl

Beyond Broken
I wholeheartedly agree. Sorry for the delays but tech issues suck more than my vacuum. I also had like 5 fleets to command and ended up barely being able to do that on my own. I still wish to do this, but my technical problems should be fixed soon.
Grand Admiral, First Order Central Command
Depending on the outcome, it might be worth breaking it up into multiple smaller battles that are somehow linked. That way it doesn't become just a numbers game (hey, me and my allies are all targeting this capital ship this turn) and there's a lot more of that personal feeling between the opponents. In that case though, balancing between individual fleets would need to be a bit more careful, since nobody wants to be the guy up alone against the Astral Horizon.

Also rules on targeting might help, to also alleviate the problem mentioned above. Of course then you're at risk of turning it into a full on boardgame. Which uh, may be desirable, who knows. Alternatively, if you go with multiple smaller battles, you could dispense with boardgame-esque rules entirely and turn it into a traditional RP battle. Hell if you're up for it you could do different rules in different sub-battles.

Anyway, just some random ideas.

Ayden Cater

Grumpy Goat
For keeping the map simple, I'd suggest using Dead Space as an example. Rather than attempt to label every ship of every fleet, just denote a group with a single hex and let the players work it out.

And I will say this; I found it incredibly disappointing that so few people were doing actual roleplaying. This is a role-playing board, this was in the roleplaying section. I do not come into a thread with the desire to read OOC junk moving a fleet. That was not what was promised, that's not what I wanted, and I'm sure plenty of other people were turned off by that as well. If you're going to participate, you had better do so as a roleplayer.

As far as no one taking damage, I think that's an unfair statement to make as the first two turns had each side too far out to make any real combat maneuvers. We were only just getting to the stage where damage was being dealt, and from what I say people were taking damage.
I specified that IC posting was optional. If people want to do so, they can.

I think you had a good point about the map.

People were...sort of.

@[member="Cyrus Tregessar"] I have created, tested and done a full on wargame system, but that's not what most people want. If anyone does want that I can do a separate game for you brave people! :D
Grand Admiral, First Order Central Command
I would tend to agree with @[member="Ayden Cater"] on the RPing aspect. It's tricky though, because if you're doing preset damage and the like based on a set of rules, it seems to limit how creative you can get with writing what your ships are actually doing.

Hybrid RP Battle systems ain't easy to work out, man.
Major Faction


Nimir-ra to Iella, Jedi Shadow
I don't remember where it said it was optional to make IC roleplays. It makes less sense not to make the characters who are there interacting with things, the ones investigating the different places wouldn't have actually been interacting as much as just checking once or twice and as I recall you had to order damage be taken to tugs after 8000ms fired on them doing only ten or so percent. There was a lot of things but some of the few problems ended up one side stonewalling and stalling. Their fleets only getting moved after five days by a member of the faction after permission from the owner. Then they are crying foul.
It's Real to Pretend
^ all the way. I had far too much on my plate coordinating ships and dealing with an enormous OOC-based gang-up on my vessels to care at all about the IC RP aspect of the matter. In the end, all I need to know is which ships to shoot at and which ships shot at me. 'Twas really it, considering over half the event was one person.

On the matter of logistics, I agree. Just list the ships, their classes, and whatnot instead of making us do a full-scale list. If we've suffered shield or hull damage, just message, PM, or Skype is about it and we'll lost remaining integrity next to the vessel's name.

As well, the map was a lot simpler when a letter/number codex was utilized instead of two numbers. That made things rather difficult when I was moving and positioning my fleets and ships.

Overall, let's try this again, on another event. One people are willing to dedicate time and effort to due to the significant rewards in play for them all. And one where a single person can't use his significant level of alts and posting for others to win the battle.

Ayden Cater

Grumpy Goat
In the end, don't we all die? So why do anything? If one takes the view point of "Well if X, why even bother?", then you destroy any motivation for doing anything. It's not enough to say "Well isn't the form the only thing people will look at?". Sure, there will be people who will only bother to look at that. And then when they walk into a trap because they couldn't be bothered to read the post, so much the fault for them. Just because the core activity of the post is tied in to the form doesn't mean that's all anyone should post.

I've heard more people talk about how much time it was to work the form and map and move everything. If you're able to put that much effort into a form, I have to imagine it's not that hard to work out an IC post. I'm not going to say let's all post minimalist forms because one or two people can't be bothered to make full posts.

Also, "half" the event was not one person. Let's get that straight now. That one person ended up having to post for nine other people who had five days to post is not some sinister form of alt padding or anything like that.
It's Real to Pretend
I was referring to the person who was indeed alt-padding. Someone on both sides of the equation who assisted with manipulating the odds in his primary team's favor. Not the person who actually had to put in effort picking his team's slack up because people started dropping like flies.
Major Faction


Nimir-ra to Iella, Jedi Shadow
Circe is right in the end one person did have control of nearly the entire board and I wonder why that is? Oh wait I remember because he got asked to take control when the factions couldn't post due to real issues and again you had five days to post and didn't so you don't have any legs to stand on and try to cry foul. You rushed ahead into the middle of the enemy fleet and expected what? Them to sit there and not attack you? Yeah I focused fire on the nearest fleet in range and that was you. I got assigned the Fringe fleet and the sith fleet because I was active and willing to post for the factions to help out. I could have refused and ten to one we would still be sitting here waiting for the sith fleet to do anything. Or the turn would have ended and we would be waiting again, like I said you can't cry foul or complain when you had more then enough time.

and you weren't picking up slack, Dranok picked up slack when sith disappeared, I picked up slack when Fringe and Kiskla needed it, then again when the sith refused. All we ever saw from you was bragging and whining.

Ayden Cater

Grumpy Goat
I'm not going to debate the issue. I saw people on both sides, posting for their team, doing the best they could. There was no "manipulation" or anything like that going on. If you feel differently, you're more than welcome to talk to me in private and I'll debate all night long there. But this is not the place to start sling accusations like that around and I'd just assume no see anyone do it. It's because of junk like this that stupid drama happens, and I won't sit by and say nothing while it continues. This is a board for storytelling and we're all part of the same community. Act like it.