Training and Promotions -- How much is TOO much?

[Micah Talith]

Alright, promotion rules for the board are here.


1. Apprentice To Knight

• When an Apprentice's Master feels the Apprentice is ready for promotion to Knight, he/she submits the Apprentice's name for promotion to his/her Faction Administrator for approval.
• If the Apprentice does not belong to a Faction, the Apprentice's Master will submit the Apprentice's name to a Role-play Judge for approval.
• If approved by the Faction Administrator/Role-Play Judge, the Apprentice's name is submitted to a Board Administrator for Rank Promotion.

*In the case that no Force User Master is available, any Faction Administrator/Role-play Judge may represent the Apprentice as his/her Out of Character Master for promotion purposes.


I won't go over too much Knight --> Master, because that is pretty cut and dry.

However, I will focus on Padawan/ Apprentice / Acolyte/ Initiate to Knight level appropriate.

I want to discuss comparatively what the board states as the requirements to reach knight compared to what Factions are requiring beyond the board rules before being promoted to knight.

I remember that the spirit of the board when Chaos was created was to not bog down our users with too many requirements; some of us come from TGC and remember when getting to knight took six months to a year, and getting master took an additional year or more beyond that.

Time and time and again, it is shown how membership retention and the bottlenecking of masters severely suffers with this type of methodology.

Being active and a productive member of the faction is what got a character promoted, and anything else beyond that were not requirements, but merely optional venues anyone can take to give a writer some more flair.

Now granted, character development is definitely necessary; but if a padawan/ apprentice was super active, diligent with faction threads, dominions, invasions, and as a plus, had a great ooc personality, it was not uncommon to see a super active padawan get offered promotion in a month as an option -- note, the apprentice could choose to decline and accept it at a later date.

Remember the "Capping Ceremony?" for those who don't know, read up on it here. It is a neat feature that shows that the qualities people are actually looking for promotions are the following: Penmanship, creativity, and motivation.

Why would we punish writers by making anything beyond this a requirement instead of optional?

So, without further ado, what are your thoughts?

 

[Ilias Nytrau]

I've been on a board where there was a five-tier system, and several requirements for each rank. Way too many hoops to jump through. I'm happy to set a line for my own characters because I want to feel I have earned a promotion, but I want to get there under my own directives and power.

Drawing those lines for me will only sap my will to write. It kills my joy.

 

[Carbon]

For me, as someone who doesn't really keep up with the most active members of factions, if you can go to anyone in your faction and hear 'Yeah I know them, they're pretty cool' they're probably deserving of a promotion if they haven't already gotten one.

I've been a long time advocate of not tracking force powers, and not listing all your saber forms and skill (I decided to give it a try on this character.) About all I've learned from this experiment so far is that it really makes you realize how much stuff is out there and how little of it matters.

Who cares that you list yourself as a 'Master' in Tutaminis? If you've the OOC personality of a very ornery rock and the writing effort of the same, I won't take that 'Master' seriously, even if you've got five threads to back it up.

Promotion to me is based on activity, little else. You stick with actively posting and moving along all kinds of threads for a few months? You deserve promotion, all the way up to Master. People put too much emphasis on the rank, and sure you get a huge amount of Masters that 'trivialize' the rank but honestly... we're here to have fun. Lengthy requirements aren't fun. You're here, you're posting, you're moving things along. GG no re.

 

[Tahira Solo]

One of the issues I've seen is that only a few people actually recommend others for promotion to knighthood.

I'm pretty sure Jon and Illie have been the only ones to notice my character development threads when posted in thread trackers. We should have more active members (myself included) looking out for each other for potential recommendations and not always leave it up to the same people. Of course, it's always a good idea to chat with someone via PM beforehand, especially if they have an active master/knight that would promote them, anyway.

I want to see more promotion recommendations!

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

It’s important for the master to understand the student’s desires, and for the master to be able to accommodate it.

Some writers want to turbo through padawan to knight as they feel that’s where the character really gets going. Others want to take a longer time and really work their way through the learning process.

It’s a stereotype perhaps that people with more characters prefer to turbo through whilst those with few Force users regard it more as a novelty to RP things through slower.

Either way, it’s even more important to carefully choose your counterpart. There’s no point having a master who wants a long, detailed training paired with a student who wants to be a knight in a week.

Generally, so long as master and student are compatible, the promotion point is pretty clear. There’s a point in the story when you both recognise it’s time.

[member="Siobhan Kerrigan"] and I work well in working this point out. Basically, it all comes down to this relationship.

 

[Matsu Ike]

I've always looked at activity and if they like to have fun. Didn't matter to me if they were here a month working hard or a year only doing rps. Granted the ones who nag for promotion or just have disinterest in the threads might make wait to see them squirm.

 

[Micah Talith]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

Very valid point. That relationship oocly as well as icly is important because of communication.

The most successful padawan/ master relationships had this as the main fuel to determine when a promotion is ready.

 

[Jorus Merrill]

There's two variables at play here. The first one involves finding a sweet spot for amount of work, and that's pretty cut and dried. Most factions are fairly solid on this. The second involves what that work entails, and this is where it can get dicey within factions. It's entirely possible to get Knight and Master without any training threads, let alone specific threads for abilities X, Y, and Z. That's how it 'worked' on the board [member="Ilias Nytrau"] mentions...and that board was HORRIBLE, and this was one of the reasons why. You had to do threads for X number of abilities at each tier, have RP'ed trials -- it got bad.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Micah Talith"]
Exactly!

An aspect of this bond is something Ms [member="Tahira Solo"] touched on - the student has to feel comfortable saying 'I think I'm ready' and the master has to either agree or provide valid reasons why not. This is very important indeed.

 

[Siobhan Kerrigan]

Siobhan Kerrigan and I work well in working this point out. Basically, it all comes down to this relationship.

Aww, you're so sweet, [member="Valiens Nantaris"]


Anyway, what he said. A good relationship IC and OOC is crucial. So far Siobhan has promoted two apprentices to knighthood after thorough training, Tempest and [member="Natoline Kerrigan"]. In both cases they clicked very well, the writers talked it over a lot and both Paddies got knighthood after having proved themselves in the field.


In Tempest's case proving herself meant saving Siobhan when she floating around in space and close to dying after the space station she was on got blown up. Then after promotion showed what she'd learned when Firemane purge Gehenna of Bando Gora a second time. Nato fought Shinju in an AoL skirmish way back and then showed her combat skills in an LS dom, along with having a massive training thread.


Of course training methods have to click as well. Both of my chars who I use for training, Kaida and Sio, are very practical. There's little Force philosophy involved, both because of OOC dislike on my part since it just sounds awkward to me, and because they're combat focused (difference being that while their methods are similar, Sio is nicer about it, whereas Kaida is a drill sergeant). And naturally training can just occur on the job, say within the context of a mission.

 

[Rika]

I think it is important to note that there are plenty of great writers who post less than once a day (in an IC fashion).

They share the same dedication but because of rl time constraints or the fact that a single post could take hours of planning and execution, they simply do not have the numerical output that is so easily quantifiable as a "level of activity." However, if there is a numeric quantity to the posts required for characters to advance, these great writers may never get the opportunity to progress their characters.

It might take such a writer twice (hell five times considering the post counts of some members here) as long to achieve a similar rank as someone who joined at the same time but simply had nothing else to do with their ooc time and energy.

 

[Jorus Merrill]

One of the issues I've seen is that only a few people actually recommend others for promotion to knighthood.

I'm pretty sure Jon and Illie have been the only ones to notice my character development threads when posted in thread trackers. We should have more active members (myself included) looking out for each other for potential recommendations and not always leave it up to the same people. Of course, it's always a good idea to chat with someone via PM beforehand, especially if they have an active master/knight that would promote them, anyway.

I want to see more promotion recommendations!

This is huge.

 

[Sarge Potteiger]

Sarge here got promoted purely based on activity (though I'm sure my reputation played into it.) I did dominions, invasions, faction threads, public threads and private threads. In exactly 0 of them did I teach/learn a skill/saber form/whatever.

And ya know what? I was fine with that. No one went into my bio when I lifted a rock and went WELP NO TRAINING THREAD GONNA HAVE TO REPORT YOU. Nah, they saw 'Master' realized I'd earned the right to lift a friggin rock and we went about our threading.

I feel specific requirements can discourage people from pursuing a higher rank. If I was ever told 'you need X training threads and Y amount of posts to be promoted' I would NOPE out of being a force user so hard. It's why I avoided it at the craft shop. Don't tell me what to write, cause then it's not what I'm interested in.

And what I'm not interested in are duels, self training/learning threads or being a Master to a Padawan. Can't do any of those things and stick with the thread. They don't entertain me. Interaction entertains me, interaction without some contrived 'I have to learn this or this thread doesn't matter to me.'

Really puts a damper on things when they aren't organic.

Just RP. Write yo character. Don't let no one tell you what you should be threading and doing with your character.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

To be honest, not everyone has thread trackers (I never have), and it’s not really the business of anyone to recommend padawan>knight promotions other than those two.

If the student is happy where they are in the training, why would they need someone to recommend it, and conversely, how would it help the master if people are undermining them and telling the student they are ready?

Knight>master is completely different, and I agree there, but for the first promotion, definitely not.

 

[Ilias Nytrau]

I think it is important to note that there are plenty of great writers who post less than once a day (in an IC fashion).

They share the same dedication but because of rl time constraints or the fact that a single post could take hours of planning and execution, they simply do not have the numerical output that is so easily quantifiable as a "level of activity." However, if there is a numeric quantity to the posts required for characters to advance, these great writers may never get the opportunity to progress their characters.

It might take such a writer twice (hell five times considering the post counts of some members here) as long to achieve a similar rank as someone who joined at the same time but simply had nothing else to do with their ooc time and energy.

Exactly this. I have two masters, and it took eight to ten years for each of them to get to master because... that's just me. I have two knights and it took about ten months with each of them to get there, give or take, because... again, that's just me. I work, I have a kid. Up until the end of last year, I was in school full-time!

 

[Jsc]

Ever time I take an Apprentice I will PM the writer and ask a few questions. Really try to fit into their shoes and get their perspective on life and gaming,

• When do you want to reach Knighthood? Give me a date that you want shooting for.
• When do you feel that you as a writer would the most comfortable for such a promotion and why?
• What are your expectations of playing as a Knight?
• Do you understand how to train another person? Do you feel comfortable leading?

It's a conversation. Nothing assumed. Nothing made standardized. They talk. I listen. It is their journey, it is very personal IC, it is very personal OOC, and I respect their perspective over my own. That is where we start building.

___

Now. I have only once ever had to take a writer aside and tell them they weren't ready for Knight. But that was because they didn't feel comfortable training, leading, participating further in that specific Faction, and wanted to use the new rank to troll and 'insta-win' against another very specific writer in PvP. Then they would switch from Jedi to Sith after the promotion. So yeah. I told them no and then dropped them as a student. Greifing, flaming, trolling, being passive aggressive, vocally hating on your community. Nope. That was my 'line in the sand'. That my personal limit. You don't get to 'earn' something just so you can use it against your peers. That's not how 'Apprenticeship with Jay' rolls. Even if you have 500 threads and 1000 posts.

EDIT: Also. The fastest I have ever promoted someone from Paddy to Knight was 2 weeks.

 

[Tahira Solo]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"]

That's great, except not everyone has a specific master. I have two force users right now that don't have one dedicated master and they are not part of any of the major factions. I won't usually recommend my own chars for promotions to knighthood.

However, if they don't have a dedicated master and I feel like they might be at a good place, I've been thinking about putting up a poll, linking a thread-tracker, and letting the community decide.


Hahaha.

What other system is there for those who are learning through unconventional methods?

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Tahira Solo"]
If there’s no master it’s your responsibility to know when you’re ready. That’s what the RPJ clause is there for.

When you’ve done enough RPs you contact an RPJ and have them review it. It’s not really for others to tell you if you’re ready if they’re not in the master role.

Besides, if you have two characters without masters you’re clearly not wanting anyone to tell you what to do anyway.

 

[Jsc]

[member="Tahira Solo"] You can also grab a friend in the same faction with suffice rank and have them promote your characters. I've had people grab me before and say: "Hey, can you promote me in x amount of time?" I said sure. Now, they didn't want training. They didn't want a mentor. Nobody to hold their hand or be their Master. They just wanted a quick peer review of their recent threads and then a swift kick in the pants. And I was game for that too. Just stamp the paperwork and send it up the line. No sweat.

 

[Tahira Solo]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"] [member="Jay Scott Clark"]

Thanks! Luckily in my case, it's more of the story happening organically than 'I don't want someone telling me what to do.'

As hard as that is to believe, Valiens!