The Dichotomy Of Good And Evil; A Disscussion Pertaining To The Philosophical Alignment Of The First

[RIP Carlyle Rausgeber]

Because Stormtroopers have been one of the main evils in this Saga at large.

I dare disagree, and may seem to be a contrarian, but I can't agree on this point. We see stormtroopers as evil because of the perspectives of a certain few during the films. Stormtroopers were the enforcers of peace and prosperity during the Original Trilogy era, they saw to the end of the most destructive conflict and corrupt government in history. We don't get a full picture of the stormtroopers role in society, or any of the work they do other than acting as cannon fodder for the Skywalker gang.

By its very nature, Authoritarianism crushes dissent, political freedom, and freedom of expression. That is evil. You may not be evil like Palpatine's Empire or the First Order of TFA, but evil is evil nonetheless.

See, you're not neccessarily evil doing that. Case in point, the Galactic Alliance, whom if I recall correctly run themselves via a triumvirate of political figures rather than a democracy. What I'm trying to get at, is is that authoritarianism isn't a label that makes you necessarily evil. It just means you're a really rigid society.

 

[Darth Carnifex]

[member="Tanomas Graf"]

Do what must be done.

Do not hesitate.

Show no mercy.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

We're doing well so far. Make sure this thread does go BDZ.

 

[Nisha Skaiyr]

Case in point, the Galactic Alliance, whom if I recall correctly run themselves via a triumvirate of political figures rather than a democracy.

If this is accurate, the Galactic Alliance is in fact evil. It may not be quite as severe as the First Order, but we're talking a difference of degree, not of alignment.

 

[Samka Derith]

Yay cordial debate!

I will treat this response and this thread as a forum for cordial debate on the topic of the First Order's action, since the door has been left open to discussion relating to philosophy and subsequent actions. Please do not take offense if my words come off as abrasive, since they are not intended as such.


Was there a public apology to the citizens of Eriadu and compensation paid to the families of the deceased, or to the government?

Additionally, this is non responsive to the fact that in the most recent skirmish people are being crucified. Simply stating without warrant that it is not relevant does not actually address the issue, nor actually mean that it is, in fact, not relevant.

Eriadu was before my time so I won't address it much other than I've been told it's the turning point from the First Order being black and white morality evil to the current form of ambiguity. Internally it was the catalyst for the current Government dynamics with hardliners (your more typical lawful evil types) and reformists (more neutral leaning).

But I can discuss the crucifixions and point out that A ) That was the action of an allied Sith Lord, not punishment dealt by the First Order itself and B ) The prisoners in question were dangerous pirates terrorising the innocent rather than freedom seeking partisans or anything like it.

I think a lot of the discussion is what counts to you as evil. The First Order never pretends for a moment it is a spotless heroic faction but the question is where do you draw the line? Is torture of any kind reprehensible? Then yes, the First Order is evil to you. Imperialism? Anti-democratic? Yes then it is evil. Do you believe that good intentions or actions can counter balance acts of cruelty? If yes then the First Order is not pure evil. To use Kaeshana as an example: factually speaking, the First Order's original mission to the world was humanitarian. OOC I can tell you there was no evil plan to do anything other than assist in clearing some of the radiation and terriforming the planet back into a reasonable state and protect civilians from the roaming pirates and gangs. The tactics and punishment of said gangs was heavy handed as always but it's up to you and your characters to decide if that is too far. Which is one of the great things I find about the faction, it challenges characters on both sides into thinking what do they stand for and do they go too far in the pursuit of stability. I think what disappoints some people who have committed great effort in putting the First Order down that path is when that level of ambiguity is ignored in favour of the narrative from the films.

"But wait, doesn't your character do unspeakable horrors and find it fun?" Why yes she does and I am under no disillusion of fitting her in any other category than "evil" for the time being. I am a firm believer in the inherent corruption of the Dark Side and how anyone using it regardless of intent will slip into the path of violence, cruelty and evil. I dislike filthy neutrals using Dark Powers basically. However this is my individual character, not the faction as a whole. Consider it like how in Knights of the Old Republic, you could play the most violent and cruel Dark Sider in the galaxy but still side with the Republic the entire game, that didn't make the Republic evil and the actions of individuals outside the state system does not make the First Order evil. What the First Order may do however is tolerate the existence/aid of evil characters if their assistance is practically valuable. Whether you find this an act of evil is again, like above, up to your interpretation.

TL;DR
Stuff like this:

Yes.
Yes it does.
By its very nature, Authoritarianism crushes dissent, political freedom, and freedom of expression. That is evil.
You may not be evil like Palpatine's Empire or the First Order of TFA, but evil is evil nonetheless.
That said: Go with it! I exclusively write morally ambiguous characters, most of whom are, indeed, leaning towards evil.

Great! You/your character oppose Authoritarianism on principle and as such oppose the First Order regardless of anything else it may do as it is an authoritarian and anti-democratic state with no room for political freedom of the masses and that, to you, is evil.



Stuff like this quote I'm making up:

The First Order is bad because Stormtroopers and triangle ships

Not helpful and rather disrespectful of the faction people have worked hard to shape.

This is all my own thoughts and musing so don't hold this to any real power. AKA: If I'm wrong, pls don't hurt me again [member="Natasi Fortan"]

 

[Tydeus of Tion]

Sorry, what I meant was that since it was not a sanctioned action by the First Order, hanging it around our necks is disingenuous, most notably because ICly it has been -- what, hours? -- since the events happened. In a warzone. The First Order proper has not had time to be informed of the actions, let alone respond to them. Optics is one thing, and propaganda and the rest, but tying these actions morally to the First Order is premature. In an IC sense, when we become aware of the crucifixions there will be consequences. That there haven't been any yet is a result of my distaste for metagaming and shouldn't be seen as an official or unofficial condoning. Besides, between crucifixions, artillery strikes, force-storms, etc. none of us are coming out of this with clean hands -- which is part of the larger point. The FO has always been nuanced -- fascist, yes, but not stupid evil like villains in the movies.

Since Kaeshana is ongoing I would suggest leaving aside the actions from there; they clearly have not informed opinions on the First Order because the posts in it show that the FO was viewed as evil incarnate at the beginning (I believe I read the term "Space Nazis" in at least one post which, as a Jew, was a particularly delightful label to have applied to me ). Besides, I'm not comfortable muddying the pool while the rebellion is ongoing and hasn't been judged. I'm perfectly willing to put our record up against anyone's where Kaeshana is concerned once it has been concluded, just for the purposes of discussion

At any rate, like you, I'm not really meaning to come off as harsh and I apologize if I am. I enjoy a vigorous debate. And the great thing about roleplaying in the Star Wars universe is that we get to get more detailed and granular than the films. The reason why I'm loathe to judge people based on the 'identity' they take from the film (i.e. Jedi, roguish smuggler, Alderaanian royalty, Sith) is that a film is usually around two hours long and because of the time restraints, doesn't allow for anything but broad strokes. The Rebel Alliance are the heroes, they're ragtag and colorful; the Empire is evil, they've got big, angular ships and stormtroopers. Until Rogue One, the ambiguity of the galaxy wasn't really explored in the films, and I think that was by design. The joy of roleplaying is that you can play good guys who, judged in a vacuum, aren't all that good, or you can play bad guys who, taken in context, aren't all that bad. A two hour movie needs black and white in order to save time. A roleplay, with factions that can be around for years, gives more time to develop the grey.

Anyway, I think what [member="Carlyle Rausgeber"] is trying to accomplish here, is to get an idea for what the impression was and why that was the impression. I may not think it's fair to base an understanding of the work of dozens of writers for nearly a year on a movie where they are rather unsympathetically labeled "The Villains" but if that's the view, that's the view. Recently we've been discussing among ourselves what we are all about and whether we should take a role as villains in the absence of others or even just as a natural evolution. When he pitched the idea, it was not (and I believe still is not) intended to antagonize, just to get some discussion going.

Then [member="Darth Carnifex"] happened (jk bruh)

Anyway, if we're going to get the hit for being genocidal murderers, we might as well -- you know -- genocide some stuff. Do you know how difficult it was to stop my guys genociding the Ewoks when we took Endor? They really wanted to wipe out the Ewoks -- can't imagine why.

True, I agree that there's room for the First Order to render justice to the perpetrators, but only after the fact. These sort of problems will likely continue to pop up due to the First Order's association with Sith, who may be more or less rogue elements/states within the faction, but are not actually perceived as such since they appear to be more or less tolerated.

That is not to say that factions like the Alliance have an immensely superior moral high ground. One of my alts made a deal to turn a Sith loose on another Sith. However, striking deals with Sith is not a common occurrence in the Alliance and for the most part such individuals would be arrested on sight (which may or may not be "evil" depending on your point of view regarding law enforcement).

The fact that so far the First Order has managed to clamp down on genocides by and large is admirable, but it will be a recurring issue that the FO image struggles with until Sith known for being mass murderers (Zambrano et al) are no longer accepted as allies. (which seems to be the direction they are moving toward). Even then there are a number of humanocentric elements within the FO, which may be suppressed but are present.

I like the concept of an Imperial faction that cracks down on subordinates for stepping out of line and holds people who go too far accountable. However, I do think that regardless of intent the FO still struggles with branding issues due to nazi uniforms, Sith allies, stormtrooper usage, etc. While the content might be different, it does have an inherent leaning toward a fascist regime that will probably continue to crop up whenever new members who are expecting the movie version join. Thus, I think that it's still too early for the First Order to be labeled as objectively good, but neither do I think they are wholly evil.

As for the Ewoks, I cannot imagine what sort of nonsensical, cartoonish character involved in that thread prompted the furtherance of such sentiments toward the species.

EDIT: in re Samka - refer to the paragraph dealing with allied Sith lords in this post. Additionally, I would concede that the First Order does stand for some admirable ideals, like peace, justice and security.

 

[Aela Talith]

Case in point, the Galactic Alliance, whom if I recall correctly run themselves via a triumvirate of political figures rather than a democracy.

The Galactic Alliance is basically the EU. Each planet is run in it's own politcal fashion and simply supports the GA via taxes, resources, etc in return getting benefits as member worlds. The overall Government is run by a Triumvirate yes, however;

Two out of the three of the Triumvirate were elected via the original planets within the Alliance, the third(Grand Marshall) is chosen by the New Jedi Order. These could all change via new elections but have just never been RP'd out for various reasons.

The Alliance isn't authoritarian.

 

[Darlyn Excron]

[member="Ryan Korr"]

*brings in a science book* Actually, the sky is purple. You (and me, and all humans) just really, REALLY suck at seeing purple.



On the subject of the First Order (so I don't just randomly post in with a joke) I believe I have only this to say.

Your ideals are not evil, which is to say order and structure to the galaxy. I think everyone wants that. Your methods to this may teeter on this edge, and your actions colour the way everything is seen. In a base level, you want exactly what everyone else wants in a chaotic galaxy. You just employ darker, more easily twisted methods to achieve it.

Tl;Dr: Constantly on that knife's edge between the two moralities.

 

[Tydeus of Tion]

The Galactic Alliance is basically the EU.

Or NATO

Or the UN.

 

[William Kerkov Sr]

 

[William Kerkov Sr]

Because i have less than one hour till I leave for the whole weekend, but it turns out I don't have any preparation left for the trip, I will leave a few words of Kerkov.

The First Order is the Estado Novo regime of Portugal in Star Wars. A renown fascist government that ruled Portugal for over forty years under the guidance of Antonio Salazar, formerly an economics minister, who slowly seized control of the Portuguese Republic and founded a fascist government in its place. Despite tensions, the Portuguese remained neutral throughout their entire history and only fought defensive wars, being fiercely isolationist came naturally to them. They provided suitable living conditions throughout the great depression and Portugal fared well off compared to other nations. Despite having an authoritarian government and only committing a few bad acts, their populace remained fairly happy and they never really were bad. They were just fascist, imperialist (Or at least holding on to it), and authoritarian. That is why that the First Order is like that, like Portugal, they aren't really bad unless you look at it from a very certain angle.

That is all I have to say, it may not make sense but I really don't have the time to flesh it out. Thanks.

 

[BE-183]

Speaking as someone who enjoys strokes of grey to the moral themes of stories; I recognise that when these people took inspiration from things out of the original work into long term RP, they fleshed it out further, playing it much more realistically and taking more elements into account than the original movie did, branching out into their own path.

We can use certain imagery with a fresh meaning, and the players of the First Order don't necessarily apply the same clichés seen on the big screen. Though made up of individual members whose values differ, there's an underlying pragmatic sense giving their actions context, which isn't inherently good or evil. For example, take the issue of a significant crime rate in a vast, free galactic society; while they do impose authoritarian control on the populace, they are incredibly effective at cracking down on risks to security because of it, ensuring the safety of their citizens. The Order's philosophy is a utilitarian approach to totalitarianism, that utopia might justify the means.

Given that centuries have passed since the events of the franchise we know, it's fair to say the faction departs considerably from the more villainous principles of the Empire. They're busy nurturing a thriving, peaceful community with a good standard of living, as opposed to the Empire's polarising practice of favouring the core systems and subjugating the outer rim, which helped spark the birth of the rebellion. The Order is ideologically at odds with the Alliance, and history has shown the natural result of such a dynamic. ICly both sides are self righteous, and appear willing to justify anything if it makes them right, and the other wrong.

I regard the Order as having a noble goal, and already having some success in realising it. While they maintain acceptable ethics by their standards, in some cases they have shown to be well-intentioned extremists. From an OOC perspective, I think the faction's complex morality makes it accessible to a wide range of characters, from benevolent diplomats right up to bloodthirsty dark side Force users, all aiding the pursuit of a shared ambition.

 

[Six-O]

Stuff like this quote I'm making up:
Not helpful and rather disrespectful of the faction people have worked hard to shape.

This is all my own thoughts and musing so don't hold this to any real power. AKA: If I'm wrong, pls don't hurt me again [member="Natasi Fortan"]

Why you find this offensive to the writers is entirely surprising lol. Symbolism is highly important in society and definitely should be woven in to the fabric of how the Galaxy would perceive the Faction.

Undoubtedly, people would lose their karking minds if a military went around with a chest full of swastika flair, burning crosses on the lawns of those who wanted to fall outside of being told what to do, when to do it, and how it had to be done, exactly to the T.

As writers you should feel inspired that you have a mountain to climb and ultimate goal to strive for.

I find it offensive, as a writer, that you so viciously believe that the First Order should just be respected! Lol. OK! I don't actually find it offensive, but it definitely is a shame to waste that process with a quick hand wave; We're good!

 

[Herr Vanderhing]

From my very limited perspective on this whole site. You guys aren't exactly bad but contrary wise you aren't exactly good nor neutral, you all just sort of do things, some of you do it for personal gain, others believe what they're doing is righteous. At the end of the day all you truly are is a government, above morals because some believe what you're doing is right while others see wrong, I'd compare you very much to the Roman Empire, sometimes they helped people with such advancements in philosophy and infrastructure while other times you himder them by taking their planet (you can't really say everyone on the planets you own support you) as the Romans hindered others with the likes of Madman Nero. Basically you guys aren't in any alignment, you're just a government providing and occasionally taking from its people

 

[Samka Derith]

Why you find this offensive to the writers is entirely surprising lol. Symbolism is highly important in society and definitely should be woven in to the fabric of how the Galaxy would perceive the Faction.

Undoubtedly, people would lose their karking minds if a military went around with a chest full of swastika flair, burning crosses on the lawns of those who wanted to fall outside of being told what to do, when to do it, and how it had to be done, exactly to the T.

As writers you should feel inspired that you have a mountain to climb and ultimate goal to strive for.

I find it offensive, as a writer, that you so viciously believe that the First Order should just be respected! Lol. OK! I don't actually find it offensive, but it definitely is a shame to waste that process with a quick hand wave; We're good!

If you think I'm saying We're good then you have missed the entire point of my post. We're not. My point is how bad we are is up to your interpretation and I think I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[Natasi Fortan]

Why you find this offensive to the writers is entirely surprising lol. Symbolism is highly important in society and definitely should be woven in to the fabric of how the Galaxy would perceive the Faction.

Undoubtedly, people would lose their karking minds if a military went around with a chest full of swastika flair, burning crosses on the lawns of those who wanted to fall outside of being told what to do, when to do it, and how it had to be done, exactly to the T.

As writers you should feel inspired that you have a mountain to climb and ultimate goal to strive for.

I find it offensive, as a writer, that you so viciously believe that the First Order should just be respected! Lol. OK! I don't actually find it offensive, but it definitely is a shame to waste that process with a quick hand wave; We're good!

I think she means that we as writers should respect each other -- not that the First Order should be esteemed particularly. [member="Samka Derith"] wouldn't ignore your writing and tell you what your character is about; it's the same principal right? Actually I think she would... she's shifty (can't trust people with pink hair)...

 

[Jaron Lesan]

[member="Nisha Skaiyr"] [member="Carlyle Rausgeber"]

I think you two are using two defenitions of evil.

Authoritarianism is not Totalitarianism.

It's the abuse or practice of one or both that leads to evil, but the ideals in themself are not.

 

[Darth Ayra]

[member="Ryan Korr"]

I know that when the First Order first started a year ago, they wanted Eriadu to be their capital. All of a sudden here comes the Galactic Alliance, made up of characters who got fed up of losing to the One Sith, saying that Eriadu is ours and we'll be setting up shop here. I find it hypocritical that you guys want to point a judgemental finger at the First Order when you were the ones who started hostilities in the first place.

I'm just a meme.

 

[Kenrath]

The concepts of good and evil are so horribly subjective it is a debate with no possibility of a winner much less a clear winner.

It is generally consider that Imperial society is view as evil on a fundamental level to as some have already mention a lack of freedom of things like speech. Plus the whole Supreme Leader and Grand Moff concept. On the flip side order through uniformity is on a lot of levels a productive format to pursue. You also can't call someone evil because of Storm Troopers who are nothing more than soldiers in a common uniform. A practice that virtually all major governments or powers with a standard military use.

I also find the explanation of a group like the First Order being "evil" because of associations with Sith laughable. I am pretty sure several members of all of the current major factions are either former Sith or associate with people who are active or former Sith. In that regard and by that definition there are no quote good factions in Chaos.

At the end of the day I find this whole hang up o good or evil very tiresome. None of us are wholly good or wholly evil. We seem to justify conflict by hiding behind this concept of evil when in fact it boils simply done to people fighting not for good or evil but for resources and survival.

In my eyes nobody is evil and nobody is good. Not the First Order, not the Alliance, the Silver Jedi.....none of them. Some people on the other hand are yes evil. However the moment we allow a single voice to dictate opinion of the whole is the day we no longer have a voice.

 

[Samka Derith]

pink

Puuuuuuuuuuuuurple!