Discussion Slugthrowers, and the problem with Chaos

[DeadpoolMLP]

So, this is something I've mentioned at length in GA discord VC, but I thought I'd put out a thread here to vent my thoughts finally, and hear what other people think.

Slugthrowers, overall, are a concept that only exist in extended media and even then, in very limited quantities. In both Canon and Legends, they're considered primitive tech, and practically obsolete.
And yet, they're fucking everywhere on Chaos. While I understand why, I can't help but lament the fact that it does effect my own suspension of disbelief in seeing Chaos as a Star Wars RP if every company on the board has some variant of the AK-47 in their catalog, and every military force is running around with 'jedi killers' as standard issue equipment.

I understand the love for them, gun nuts love their slugs, but it does get slightly frustrating when I'm practically forced to make all my armor models to have massively high kinetic ratings to be at all effective. I know 'oh, well you don't have to let them hit you', but that feels like a cheap out to me, as all that then does is tell your opponent 'yeah, I don't like your sub, so I'm gonna choose to dodge it'/

My hot take would be make them required to be semi-unique, as that would seem to be the standard set by the lore, but I know that would make a lot of people unhappy, so don't necessarily take that as a suggestion for an actual rule change. Given that lightsabers, the weapon slugthrowers mostly exist to combat, are required to be semi-unique anyways, that seems fair in my head though.

The biggest issue I have is that it really does change how I view a major battle if you have machine guns throwing hundreds of slugs, at my tank that shoots beams like a normal star wars tank. (I could get into an entirely different rant about how tanks don't fit the aesthetic either, but I can understand there since finding hover tank images is hard. Trust me, I feel that pain.)

What's the consensus on this? Y'all think I'm stupid and that I should just suck it up and let the gun nuts have their fun? Or you guys think I may have a point? I wanna heard both sides here.

 

[Valery Noble]

Blasters > slugthrowers

 

[Gatz Derrevar]

I'm of the opinion to just let people have fun, as long as it doesn't stop others from having fun. If you have an issue with something, and it's something a potential writing partner does, maybe give them a poke and discuss it before you thread?

But I do prefer blasters over slugthrowers in my Star Wars.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

Fun fact, canon is Storm Trooper armor is actually impervious to small arms slugthrowers. That pasty white armor was made to be immune to small rounds so the Empire could far more easily bully farmers, who often only had single chamber hunting rifles.

 

[Krass Wyms]

Given that chaos when it started was crawling out of a technological dark age where higher forms of tech were mostly inoperational and the low tech was standard. Not really that bad. Slugthrowers are like any other weapon type they were popular on chaos cause others wanted more variety that is why there is also almost an x-wing for every faction even though there was only one company that canonically made it. Ruu Paddle beams were also rare and something a single species used but are spread across the galaxy. It is the way in a sandbox so everyone can enjoy.

 

[DeadpoolMLP]

I'm of the opinion to just let people have fun, as long as it doesn't stop others from having fun. If you have an issue with something, and it's something a potential writing partner does, maybe give them a poke and discuss it before you thread?

If that were the issue, I'd be fine with doing so. This isn't a one on one problem, it's a board wide problem. Everyone uses slugthrowers and argues their effectiveness, when in the canon, they've straight up never shown up in any of the primary media, and what media they are shown in they're actively stated as inferior to blasters more often than not.

Given that chaos when it started was crawling out of a technological dark age where higher forms of tech were mostly inoperational and the low tech was standard. Not really that bad. Slugthrowers are like any other weapon type they were popular on chaos cause others wanted more variety that is why there is also almost an x-wing for every faction even though there was only one company that canonically made it. Ruu Paddle beams were also rare and something a single species used but are spread across the galaxy. It is the way in a sandbox so everyone can enjoy.

The factory staff have drawn the line on aestetics before, see walkers, and yet it's really the same thing here. Mechs do exist in the extended media, though they are also confined in canon to a single planet. Again, not arguing for any sort of rule change, but it seems odd that the Factory Staff chose to ban mechs when slugthrowers were allowed to run rampant.

The difference between something like paddle beams and slugthrowers is that one is an obscure piece that doesn't get used often on the board (I don't think I've ever actually seen someone submit a paddle beam in the factory), while there's always at least one slugthrower in the factory queue at any given time. I can understand the want for a sandbox feel, but it does make Chaos often times feel less like a Star Wars site, and more like Alien or Stargate.

 

[Inanna Harth]

I don't think I've ever actually seen someone submit a paddle beam in the factory.

Shi'ido-variant beamer (and its wrist-mounted version)

Lmao, couldn't resist.

As for my opinion on the above, I don't really care. I've long since branched beyond seeing Chaos as a SW roleplaying site and have seen so much crazy almost-lore-breaking shit in the Factory/Codex that I've become desensitized to it, if not jaded.

In the context of Chaos the vast majority of writers write Jedi or Sith, so slugthrowers are mainly a game mechanic thing for people to try and one-up FUs. I am guilty of this as well, although my slugthrower submissions date from my early days on the site, before I realized just how little your submissions matter in actual PvP combat where players call all the shots. It's also worth noting that I wrote a Jedi character who simply preferred to use slugthrowers, as she was bad at melee combat.

If you need some kind of in-universe explanation to soothe your suspension of disbelief: it is part of the site lore that the galaxy is experiencing an increase in Force Users unheard of in previous eras. We've had multiple devastating galactic wars involving FUs fighting other FUs, with civilians taking the collateral. A lot of writers like to brazenly massacre NFU civilians to prove how evil their characters are. I can see there being a revival of more ancient weapons like slugthrowers simply because they give NFUs a slight advantage - or at least, they are marketed as such.

DeadpoolMLP

 

[Ijaat Mereel]

I dunno, out of all the things on Chaos, slugthrowers are what rustle your jimmies for suspension of disbelief...?

 

[Mellifluous Magenta]

I...fail to see a problem tbh. There are still plenty of ways for Jedi to counter slugs. You just have to be creative. And failing that, dodge left is a thing.

 

[Jax Thio]

They're plenty of ways to take down a Jedi than just slugthrowers. I haven't seen enough of them in PVP to be deemed problematic. Besides, there are waaayyyy more things that people do in PVP that bother me. Like the OP dodge to the left ability and of course: Ridiculous Force Powers. (I'm guilty of that as well. )

 

[Jorus Q. Merrill]

I dunno, out of all the things on Chaos, slugthrowers are what rustle your jimmies for suspension of disbelief...?

This is my exact reaction. Everyone's got stuff that messes with their suspension of disbelief or their sense of an Authentic Setting, all complicated by the fact that Andor, ESB, Rebels, Dark Forces, the Holiday Special, High Republic, Attack of the Clones, the 1970s comics, Dark Empire, Legacy, Doctor Aphra, Force Unleashed, and Ewoks: The Battle For Endor are very often in different genres - while all being valid Star Wars. Sometimes the guy doing the really intolerably annoying thing is just writing in a different register and a different part of Star Wars, and we just gotta live with it. Wookieepedia's got over 80 articles for slugthrowers. That ship's well and truly sailed.

 

[DeadpoolMLP]

I...fail to see a problem tbh. There are still plenty of ways for Jedi to counter slugs. You just have to be creative. And failing that, dodge left is a thing.

They're plenty of ways to take down a Jedi than just slugthrowers. I haven't seen enough of them in PVP to be deemed problematic. Besides, there are waaayyyy more things that people do in PVP that bother me

It was never a matter of PVP. I'm well aware that there's plenty of ways for jedi to just 'lol nope' bullets.

It's more an aesthetic problem. If everyone is running around with an AK and an MG-42, then it just feels like we're roleplaying ARMA, instead of, ya know, Star Wars.

I dunno, out of all the things on Chaos, slugthrowers are what rustle your jimmies for suspension of disbelief...?

Wookieepedia's got over 80 articles for slugthrowers. That ship's well and truly sailed.

Yes. Because Star Wars Doesn't use them.

Wookiepedia also has hundreds of articles about inane tech stuff that has less than a paragraph on about 80 percent of the articles, so I don't count that as 'a ship sailed'. It's not a matter of 'they exist, what are you talking about?', it's a matter of 'They're supposed to rare and primitive, not the main arsenal of entire factions'

 

[Jorus Q. Merrill]

I dunno, this feels like the definition of 'not a hill to die on.' But that's with benefit of hindsight. I cringe to remember eight or nine years ago when I went on a similar charge against curved lightsabers on almost identical grounds. Anyways, write the SW you want to write, live and let live, enjoy.

 

[Cato Harth]

Can't say I've ever really gotten the impression that slugthrowers were obnoxiously prevalent myself. More common than in actual lore certainly, but not enough to be immersion breaking imo. There's plenty of things on Chaos that make me go "that doesn't seem like Star Wars", but this ain't one of em.

In fact, I'd be more up in arms about the crazy Force-nullification tech that everyone has in their back pockets, or the crazy Force powers people pull out of deep legends lore, those all feel a lot more goofy to me than guns. Besides as you said, slugs are generally weaker than blasters anyway, and I'd say Inanna Harth 's explanation is a pretty solid one if you need justification.

Anyway, I know people like factory and codex stuff, but the moment folks make it all become a numbers game, the RP falls apart.

Also at risk of being "that guy", they do actually use slugthrowers in the movies, not just extended canon. The tuskens used them in the podracing scene from TPM.

 

[DeadpoolMLP]

The tuskens used them in the podracing scene from TPM.

That movie isn't canon what are you talking about I haven't rewatched that movie in 20 years, forgive me.

 

[Sahan Dragr]

I see it as the same as there suddenly being 1000% more Jedi and Sith than in canon. More FUs means more methods to combat said FUs. It causes a shift that you wouldn't find when there are less FUs. Like in series where powerful abilities at the beginning becomes commonplace as it goes on.

 

[Noah Corek]

 

[Srina Talon]

scratches head

Well....

1.) Props for starting a conversation about an issue you care about/bugs you enough to bring it up. Sometimes just hashing things (even small irks) out can lead to a satisfying exchange of opinions and thoughts that help mitigate the issue.

2.) I gotta admit that this isn't what I expected reading the title but... Okay xD. Yeah. I can see how oversaturation of an item that seems "rare/obsolete" might make you itch but there's always going to be something that differs from canon lore in community RP settings.

(Ex. The Rule of Two... On Chaos I think it's the rule of however many Sith we can stuff in a cubic inch...Or even the use of rare or restricted materials. Certain materials should be WAY more rare if we followed Canon exactly. Beskar, Stygium - Anyone? )

It boils down to.... We do the best we can with what we've got to allow freedom, fun, and creativity to the masses. But at the end of the day not every aspect of RP will suit the expectations of each Star Wars loving individual.

When we draw any sort of "aesthetic" line in Factory or Codex such as the example of a "mech" its with the notion of preserving the spirit of Star Wars to the best of our ability. Agree or disagree that primarily refers to things like Transformers, Warhammer, Crossovers, etc. and although there is a snippet on "mechs" as a whole we shouldn't be seeing Wing Zero or Adeptus Mechanicus knockoffs.

There's also regulation to consider. We're very free-form in comparison to other writing arenas despite our rule-sets. We aren't going to go retroactively pull submissions or hinder RP just based on slugthrower quantities in a fictional universe. It's fine to bring awareness to your perspective though...I just wouldn't necessarily call it a problem. We all like our shiny toys. From lightsabers to the void stones... The quantities are all WAY out of whack if we dictate everything by exact canon expectations.

But - We aren't doing that in the interest of telling engaging stories whilst avoiding placing unnecessary limitations on the member base. Part of the grand appeal to this website is not getting lost in the minutiae. There are TONS of tech submissions that have been made in mass based off a stub and the imagination of a fan. Is it so hard to believe that perhaps obsolete tech made a resurgence?

Bottlenecking a Superweapon?

Yeah. I get that for what should be obvious reasons.

Bottlenecking slugthrowers? Just for aesthetic reasons?

Not.... So much. But, everyone above has pretty solid viewpoints as well in the matter. It's not likely the answer you're looking for and while I do obviously respect the want to keep things "Star Wars" I ultimately don't think that the overpopulation of slugthrowers detracts from it.

Regardless, it got people talking. So thanks for sharing!

 

[Stybla'rei'naodo]

I always make sure that if I use slugthrowers, they have a specific reason for being used over a blaster (usually I have them for a special forces outfit, so usually it has to do with their ability to be much stealthier than blasters), they look at least somewhat sci-fi-esque, and they have some sort of star-wars specific twist to them (usually to make them more useful against "up to date" armor, by incorporating things like Baradium or neuranium or other star wars-specific materials into the bullets.)

 

[Treoff Kellak]

I could easily be corrected, but from a lore and evolutionary standpoint, it seems (evidenced also in Old Republic Cinematics) heavy armor was genuinely a thing in what we consider 'the old days' as that was the standard going forward due to slugthrowers existing. As time went on, blasters became common use, not just among armies, but everyone. Those bulky, heavy kinetic armors becoming useless eventually. As seen in the Galactic Civil War, the Rebels almost entirely dropped armor, going with thin, small armor pieces designed for laser weapons. Now, after all the Jedi and Sith wars showing slug v saber is pretty fun, and I think the Galactic Empire hording and eradicating technology in the hands of other planets, the cheap alternative slugthrowers came back into the spotlight. I think it's more than just an excuse, I see it as legitimately evolutionary. And I think after Personal Shields were made, the demand to get through them also encouraged slugthrower use. Even armor fell out of popularity when lasers kept getting stronger and stronger until there was no point. So it makes sense, since weapons are so powerful, it can literally be equated to the modern day terrorist wars. Professional militaries wear some ballistic/kevlar armor, but at the end of the day, if ya get shot, ya get shot, so the unprofessional armies forgo armor as it can be expensive.


I do agree, though, besides the meh weapon, if everyone has an AK-47, that's really not Star Wars, and I wouldn't enjoy majority armies using GalacTec or Smith&Wesson.

However, I don't think restricting player options is the way to fix it. It's unfortunately just player opinions.