Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Suggestion Passive Hex Gains

I find the argument that 'nobody is forcing you to write dominions, so if you don't like them, just don't' incredibly juvenile.

Is it factually true?

Certainly.

Is it intellectually dishonest? Undoubtedly.

Nobody was forcing people to grind out posts to go from Apprentice to Knight to Master either. But the grind was taken out and the power was given to the community, when they decided their characters were ready to ascend to a new rank. Nobody was pushing people to do 200-post (or 20, or 50) dev threads to give them new toys in the Factory.

Nobody was forcing people to write 100 post dominion threads just so they could get a single planet.

It was taken out all the same. Reduced, magnified and increased, until we have the system we have now.

Because the issue is not if it is required or not. The issue is if the grind is something needed or wanted.

Nobody is forcing Major Factions to battle out invasions that run up to 400 posts, cause stress and salt, all for the opportunity to take out 1-2 hexes if you are lucky. People still do it. If the response defaults to, 'Hey, bruh, nobody is forcing you to do it, so stop complaining!' then nothing this community has achieved since its start in 2013 would have been done either.

People complained back then too that it would be the end of the world if people could choose their ranks. They argued to the heavens and back that removing Development Threads would cause the Factory to spin out of control.

We are still here.

Are there Major Factions who absolutely adore writing dominions since they were founded and still going on? Yeah, I am sure there are. But the fact that some people like things the way they are, does not automatically mean that people who don't should be dismissed with something as basic as 'just take a vacation, brah'.

Come up with an actual reason why the current system as it is is preferable. Why it's good. Why it should remain.

Because I have seen too many burn-outs and people complaining for years to believe that the community at large is in love with dominions.

.... or that it's good just the way it is.
 
Dominions are rarely decent story and usually just content being regurgitated for nominal profit (see: hexes) and while that's cool and it's "activity" it's not growing anything except blobs of color on an arbitrary map that are able to miraculously stay alive by recruiting fresh members or having an overactive faction staff.

There has got to be something better out there.
 
I'm completely against passive hex gain. I even hate the relatively new rule about plugging holes in faction territory. I feel like if a faction, big or small, wants a hex, they should work for it.

I'm all for rethinking about how territory can be gained through activity (for example, not actual doms, but tallying up all the faction development related threads together? RPJs need to read doms anyway so it shouldn't make a huge difference in their work load), but getting extra hexes just for existing doesn't sound like a step forward in my opinion.

For those talking about AoC's doms - we're basically forced to do them for this month at this point. Sure, we can risk our capital and go minor if we lose it, but then if we want o go major again we're forced into having 3 hexes regardless of what we want. So if we want to stay where we are it makes more sense to direct some of that activity into doms, even if I find the need to do so completely abhorrent.
 
I'm completely against passive hex gain. I even hate the relatively new rule about plugging holes in faction territory. I feel like if a faction, big or small, wants a hex, they should work for it.

I'm all for rethinking about how territory can be gained through activity (for example, not actual doms, but tallying up all the faction development related threads together? RPJs need to read doms anyway so it shouldn't make a huge difference in their work load), but getting extra hexes just for existing doesn't sound like a step forward in my opinion.

This is a valid concern, although I suppose I've always considered activity check time to be where major factions put up or shut up on whether they've really been carrying their own weight. This does nudge the needle from survival to actual growth, but if a faction isn't putting the work in to justify it they aren't putting the work in and there will be a reckoning either way.

There have been proposals in the past that went a step further and suggested minimum post quotas per month for expansion. That seems like extra work though imo just for something we all agree isn't really relevant to a major faction's success, right? Right guys? What? You mean its been critical to the continued activity of every single major faction except for the one specifically advertised as 'anti-map'? Weird.
 

Cheeki Breeki

Guest
C
Ronan Vizsla Ronan Vizsla said: "Are there Major Factions who absolutely adore writing dominions since they were founded and still going on? Yeah, I am sure there are. But the fact that some people like things the way they are, does not automatically mean that people who don't should be dismissed with something as basic as 'just take a vacation, brah'. "

I dont disagree with your statement here, but if you can get a large amount of people to step up and say "Hey, we want something other than Dominions" then you'd be making a decent move forward in the right direction. But...until then, it does look like it's just one person wanting this.
 
ok boomer.

It is very disingenuous to reduce this suggestion to 'stupid kids just want free stuff'.


It's not disingenuous if that's exactly how I feel, lol. Besides, you just triviliazed me with the "okay boomer", so I guess in your mind we're even.

My take on it is this, as I just explained to Zef in DMs:

It works. The system works.

It has worked for a every long time.

We have had this debate, for a very long time.

I am not stating that the system is beyond critique. But it has worked, and has shepherded us above the competition, above our neighbors, and kept us active for a very long time. Say what you will, that you didn't need the system for us to be active, but active we are.

It is not the time to throw a nuke at the rules. If you have a replacement metric to judge faction growth beyond Dominions, suggest it. Otherwise, I'll continue to say opinions that will make you feel trivialized or attacked, because they will differ from your own.
 
This is a valid concern, although I suppose I've always considered activity check time to be where major factions put up or shut up on whether they've really been carrying their own weight. This does nudge the needle from survival to actual growth, but if a faction isn't putting the work in to justify it they aren't putting the work in and there will be a reckoning either way.
I don't think that every thread marked as a faction thread actually deals with faction development though. For instance, social/party threads rarely actually do. So if we went into what I sorta proposed earlier, those wouldn't be counted towards territory gain (but definitely yes for overall faction activity).

There have been proposals in the past that went a step further and suggested minimum post quotas per month for expansion. That seems like extra work though imo just for something we all agree isn't really relevant to a major faction's success, right? Right guys? What? You mean its been critical to the continued activity of every single major faction except for the one specifically advertised as 'anti-map'? Weird.
Dominions aren't crucial to any faction's continued existence. But they do give a framework that many factions have an easier time to work with. If you compare dominions with non-dominion-faction threads, more often than not, doms go faster and have more people consistently posting to them. But that says more about us as the people doing it, than about the system.
 
And if you don't believe the system works, we all know where the door is. Chaos is holding activity during the pandemic, and has been flourishing, where other forums aren't so lucky.

I am privy to the stats. I see the numbers. We are growing once again. And we have been since January.

Are dominions beyond reproach? No. Critique the hell of them, let's liven up this debate. Are the rules beyond reproach? No, critique the hell out of them, sling your mud at me along the way if you have to.

But I implore you, educate yourself, step away from the Dominion that makes you feel like a slogfest right now.

Go, explore, get out of this echo chamber.
 
I agree that nuking a key cog of a key system of a key culture (the map) is a valid concern, as we did discuss in DMs with Ra; I also believe that we can all come to an agreement that there is room for improvement in that specific 'cog' - Dominions.

As Nessa pointed out here and perhaps that is an agreeable meeting point is changing that metric in regards to expansions with something else. Top of my mind - deregulating the current conditions - such as removing the 50 post suggestive benchmark. I am certain a lot, if not most, factions would prefer if they were able to expand their cloud via different methods than 40-50 posts of spam.
 
It's not disingenuous if that's exactly how I feel, lol. Besides, you just triviliazed me with the "okay boomer", so I guess in your mind we're even.

ok boomer.

I don't think that every thread marked as a faction thread actually deals with faction development though. For instance, social/party threads rarely actually do. So if we went into what I sorta proposed earlier, those wouldn't be counted towards territory gain (but definitely yes for overall faction activity).

So what is your stance on party thread dominions which are very common? Should they 'not count'? Faction development is a broad idea.

Dominions aren't crucial to any faction's continued existence. But they do give a framework that many factions have an easier time to work with. If you compare dominions with non-dominion-faction threads, more often than not, doms go faster and have more people consistently posting to them. But that says more about us as the people doing it, than about the system.

I think there is also something to be said for doms being the only threads that are heavily advertised on a routine basis. Doms are also required to tell a complete story in a month's time window, so there is a fair bit of 'come on everybody let's race to anything that resembles a conclusion'. I actually agree that talented staffers can make dominions exciting and engaging in much the same way as faction threads are, but talented staffers can do that with anything.

In a perfect world, it would be amazing if major factions knew how to stop and be content with the territory they have. You are the only evidence I've ever seen that its achievable. I'm only asking what the dominion fetish is costing us elsewhere on the site in terms of engaging faction threads or exciting invasions. For as long as faction pride is a thing dominions will be the most important thread in the room.
 
And I'll take off the Ra mask to be real with you, on that subject.

I have been talking with some very old friends among various communities these last few weeks, some of which own forums themselves, entire community's you may be blind to.

The subject, and response with those conversations, has always been the same:

The pandemic caused a situation we all did not think would happen. It began eating numbers. And forums began hurting hard. It hit us too, it hit everyone. It's a very weird phenomenon in the roleplay community as a whole, though we can all suspect the reason.

It is because of this that I walk very carefully on these subjects, very carefully when the community wants big shakeups. You do not know what life looks like on the other side. I'm not saying that because I'm not cool with ushering in more "chaos", but I am saying that we should hesitate and think first.

We have weathered this storm so far, and this community is manning the walls admirably. I do not wish to poke the beast, personally. Not now, when everyone's so vulnerable.

But wherever Chaos goes, I'll go too.
 
So what is your stance on party thread dominions which are very common? Should they 'not count'? Faction development is a broad idea.
With the current system, they should absolutely count.

However if we change the system, we should revisit the idea of them counting for territory gain. So should threads that are basically personal stories but with enough faction members in them to count for activity and get the 'faction' prefix stamped on them.

But how about dealing with plots on planets? Unhappy citizens, attempts at coups, developing underdeveloped worlds, working on advancing tech, holding diplomatic summits, etc. The options are really endless. There's more to RP'ing for a planet and developing it than doing a dom that puts a faction's stamp on it.

I think there is also something to be said for doms being the only threads that are heavily advertised on a routine basis. Doms are also required to tell a complete story in a month's time window, so there is a fair bit of 'come on everybody let's race to anything that resembles a conclusion'. I actually agree that talented staffers can make dominions exciting and engaging in much the same way as faction threads are, but talented staffers can do that with anything.
I agree, but again, I think this is more of how we as the memberbase choose to operate within the system, rather than the system being generally faulty.

In a perfect world, it would be amazing if major factions knew how to stop and be content with the territory they have. You are the only evidence I've ever seen that its achievable. I'm only asking what the dominion fetish is costing us elsewhere on the site in terms of engaging faction threads or exciting invasions. For as long as faction pride is a thing dominions will be the most important thread in the room.
Join me. Get a faction rolling that is also not about territorial expansion. You're an incredibly creative mind and I've little doubt of your ability to do it. If we give the memberbase more options, there will be more options for them to choose from if they don't wanna do dom after dom.
 
Tefka Tefka

I appreciate your honest answer, and concern like that for unintended consequences during an uncertain time is actually a counter-argument I can get behind. I think you're failing to see the forest for the trees a little by spinning dissatisfaction with the dominion structure as lazy entitlement, but for what its worth I've never doubted that you want what is best for the community. We just don't always agree on how to get there.
 

Cheeki Breeki

Guest
C
I see no real issue with Dominions at the moment, I agree with Tefka Tefka / Ra Vizsla Ra Vizsla 1000%, the system works. It's worked for many years with hardly any changes.
Asking to be handed hexes where others are working hard for it, regardless of whether the end narrative makes sense or not...seems wrong. I need to see something constructive to take the place of a Dominion, rather than going back and forth whether the system needs changing.

Cause that's all Im seeing:

It needs to change!
How?
In some way!
Okay but how?
It just do!
The system works.
Nu! B00maH!
 
Tefka Tefka

I appreciate your honest answer, and concern like that for unintended consequences during an uncertain time is actually a counter-argument I can get behind. I think you're failing to see the forest for the trees a little by spinning dissatisfaction with the dominion structure as lazy entitlement, but for what its worth I've never doubted that you want what is best for the community. We just don't always agree on how to get there.


For rules sake, I am responding because I am also Tefka and not pretending to be another person.

I think some of the reason is lazy entitlement.

I'm not ignorant that Doms can feel like a chore. But so can a lot of things in life, in games. Doms provide incentive. Doms provide gathering places. Doms provide so much for Factions. I have never done the numbers, but I wonder how many posts on this site are because of Doms.

"But numbers don't matter", you might say.

Well, they don't, not in a vacuum. But it's what those numbers reflect as a whole. A metric of activity, same as Dominions.

You can't get rid of Dominions without a multitude of unforeseen consequences.

Same reason you can't paint everyone that has a problem with Dominions as lazy or entitled. There is a middle ground, whether it is a good alternative to Doms, whether it's an alteration of Doms, etc. I do not know the answer, currently, but I do know it exists - and we should strive for that, over the nuclear option.
 
But how about dealing with plots on planets? Unhappy citizens, attempts at coups, developing underdeveloped worlds, working on advancing tech, holding diplomatic summits, etc. The options are really endless. There's more to RP'ing for a planet and developing it than doing a dom that puts a faction's stamp on it.

Strangely this is literally our argument against dominions. I guess we just disagree on whether dominions suck all the oxygen out of the room for anything else. I can respect that you think it boils down to human nature, just as long as you understand I think it is the system that uses expansion as a carrot on a stick that makes the priority a false choice for most people.

Join me. Get a faction rolling that is also not about territorial expansion. You're an incredibly creative mind and I've little doubt of your ability to do it. If we give the memberbase more options, there will be more options for them to choose from if they don't wanna do dom after dom.

Thank you for the kind words, but as Tefka said if you don't like the current system there's the door. I took him at his word. I hold nothing against the community but I felt very constrained by the current ruleset and the disproportionate amount of work required to push the kind of content I like (invasions, faction threads) versus safe and easy dominions. After a while they all start to feel like party threads and my free time is not unlimited. It was a truly terrible feeling when Chaos began to feel like a waste of it.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom