Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

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Meaningful Weaknesses

I'll go ahead and say that I find it exceptionally irking when I see people make characters, weapons, ships, etc and attempt to balance out their prodigious strengths with piddling weaknesses. This is exacerbated when the character/weapon/ship is portrayed in a manner that directly contradicts that weakness. "Oh, my character is a Force God, but he doesn't really get along with others. Now watch as he teams up with three other people to take down an enemy and doesn't fight with his teammates at all," or "This ship has weak shielding. Now watch as it gets hammered for ten posts without taking any real damage."

Obviously as this is a factory discussion and not a general discussion, I'm gonna focus more on these areas, specifically ships as that is my personal forte, but the general idea applies across pretty much every other area that highlights strengths and weaknesses.

One of the more common things I've seen used for starships as an attempted balancing factor, for example, is a lack of a back-up hyperdrive. Most capital ships will only have a back-up hyperdrive as a token redundancy. They're not necessary; hence the term 'back-up'. But somehow, a lack of this unnecessary system means that the ship is now capable of fielding tons of new, stronger weapons.

And that's just one minor example. There are others, some more noteworthy, but this isn't a thread meant to rag on an issue, but rather attempt to come up with solutions. I hate threads that are just slam-fests with no proposed changes or solutions, so I'm not gonna let this be one.

The most obvious and basic solution is just compiling a list of such weaknesses. Those people who don't spend much of their freetime in researching/making/playing games that deal with X system will, more often than not, simply not be aware of what is and is not a good balancing factor. So if we make a list and show it to them, they can better understand the system.

For starfighters, their small size means they don't really have a large potential pool to draw from, both for strengths or weaknesses. The most common weaknesses you'll find at this size are blind spots (most commonly the aft), poor maneuverability (usually bombers, which will usually attempt to compensate for this with stronger shields/hull), or weak cannons.

For capital ships, the larger they become the more numerous their potential weaknesses could be, but they can generally be boiled down to some of the following.

  • Firing Arcs: Ships with this weakness tend to focus their guns either all forward or to the sides for a broadside. This is a double-edged sword, as it gives them a powerful strength AND a meaningful weakness. If all of your guns fire forward and few if any can swivel to fire at the sides, or vice versa, then any attacks that come at you from this weak spot will have a natural advantage. This particular weakness is one that is more pronounced with larger and large ships, as their large mass means poor maneuverability. Smaller, faster ships can reorient in time to largely mitigate this weakness.
  • Range: Ships that specialize for a certain role will take weapons to emphasize that role. Long-range ships will want long-range cannons and energy torpedoes. Short-range ships will favor heavy cannons and assault concussion missiles. Much like with firing arcs, this creates a meaningful strength and a meaningful weakness. If your ship is design for long distance bombardments, if an enemy ship comes in close you're going to be in trouble, and vice versa.
  • Poor Armor/Shields: Bigger ships are meant to absorb more punishment, so their hull and shields are designed to match that expectation. Thus, if a ship fails to meet that level of punishment, their ship will rapidly find itself in serious trouble in an extended match. Another descriptive for ships like this would be glass cannons.
  • Specialization: Much like 1 and 2 above, ships that specialize for specific roles also create their own worst enemies. Ships that are designed as destroyers, to take out enemy capital ships, will inevitable make themselves vulnerable to coordinated starfighter attacks as their guns will naturally be incapable of targeting the nimble starfighters. Conversely, if your ship is meant to take out starfighter swarms, it's going to suffer if an enemy capital ship comes its way.
I did not include size and maneuverability in this list for a few reasons.

A weakness should be meaningful, and come about as a direct consequence of some strength. If your ship is fast, it's poorly armored. If it's got tremendous shield and hull power, its offensive power should suffer. Size is not a meaningful weakness as it is something specifically chosen for. You don't choose to make a large ship and then bemoan the fact that it's such a big target. Likewise, you don't make a small ship and fret over comparing it to a Star Destroyer. For this, you should probably be looking to frame the weakness in terms of defensive power.

Maneuverability is kept off the list for similar reasons. A weakness is something that should stand out in spite of the ship's defining traits, not because of them. Capital ships will be slower than a starfighter. This does not make it a weakness, unless it's in additional to that normal expectation. Corvettes, for example, are often faster than cruisers. If your corvette is then slower than a cruiser, that's a noteworthy weakness.


Weaknesses are not something that should be shied from, or made to be as non-damaging as possible. It is weakness, as much as strengths, that define and shape the things we make and help us make better stories.
 
The Admiralty
Codex Judge
*continues to tinker at his uber battlecruiser*

I love this thread though, as you know I ain't the most competent person when ships are concerned. So you definitely gave me a few ideas on possible weaknesses to include.
 

Corey's OOC

And where were the spiders
I'm right there with you. While I can't say any of my subs/characters are perfect, it definitely needs to be said. I fall into the specialist hole, which might save me. But yes, I agree here.
 
Any ship or vehicle has three basic fields: speed, armor, and firepower. The meaning of these is fairly self-explanatory. No ship or vehicle will every be great in all three. Ever. When they are, we call that 'broken' and reports get made. In truth, even being great in two of these fields should be a rarity.

Imagine a triangle with these three fields as the points. Now but a dot in the middle of this triangle. This middle point is the point at which you can have the greatest power in all three. The moment you begin moving it towards one field or another, you start pulling away from those other attributes. Throw it all the way into fire power and your speed and armor will be considerably weakened. Even if you throw it to a side such that you've got good power in two fields at once, that third field is going to be crippled.

That's how ships and fighters should be made. That is how you get weaknesses.
 
Ayden Cater said:
Any ship or vehicle has three basic fields: speed, armor, and firepower. The meaning of these is fairly self-explanatory. No ship or vehicle will every be great in all three. Ever. When they are, we call that 'broken' and reports get made. In truth, even being great in two of these fields should be a rarity.

Imagine a triangle with these three fields as the points. Now but a dot in the middle of this triangle. This middle point is the point at which you can have the greatest power in all three. The moment you begin moving it towards one field or another, you start pulling away from those other attributes. Throw it all the way into fire power and your speed and armor will be considerably weakened. Even if you throw it to a side such that you've got good power in two fields at once, that third field is going to be crippled.

That's how ships and fighters should be made. That is how you get weaknesses.
Popo will probably love me for this, but my first thought was of tanks.

In tanks, you look for the holy trinity of Firepower, Protection and Mobility. Obviously, you'll never get a perfect three of them (although you could reasonably get close if you don't mind a high price tag.)

Just off the top of the dome from War Thunder, you could have the Tiger II (High Firepower, High Protection, LOLNOPE Mobility) or the M41 Walker Bulldog (High Firepower, Low Protection, High Mobility.) Both fantastic, just for different reasons, and certainly not perfect. So long as you remember something like that, and put it into use for subs, you'll have a much easier time getting things approved.
 

Popo

I'm Sexy and I Know It
[member="Sarge Potteiger"]

Kate-Bissett-Silvertone-Princess-cut-Cubic-Zirconia-Ring-P11175107.jpg
 
So once more the conversation has come up about weaknesses. Not just about ships, but about characters and species, planets and weapons. It seems once again that people are pushing for their things to have great power but little to no real weaknesses.

I've stood on my soapbox already a few times attempting to address meaningful weaknesses. So let's hear from some other people.

What is a meaningful weakness? Can you list a Star Destroyer being slow compared to a Corvette as a weakness? Is a lack of a particular system/attribute/ability still a weakness if it's overly compensated for?
 
I'm hesitant to use this as a soapbox per se, but I thought I might share a few observations and thought processes that have been helpful to me when designing ships.

I like to view my ship submissions not as just a stat submission, but something like a codex submission as well. That means describing its place culturally within a faction as well as putting it into the context of current events. I find that this helps me come up with some decent weaknesses that also give more character and depth to the ship; something that is more easily alive to me while I'm writing.

For example, the Republic's recently lost a fair amount of planets during the Netherworld event, and in the process, lost several major military supplies. So right now, the in-character Republic is scrambling to make up for those losses.

It would be great if the Republic could meticulously design a single starfighter with the most advanced technology at the most high-tech facilities, but right now, speed of production is more important. So when I designed the Monsoon starfighter, I intentionally tried to make it something that was easy to build and used older, easily available technology (all which theoretically would make it quicker to produce in real life). So one of the strengths of the Monsoon would be that it was easier to build, but that went hand in hand with it being heavier and more fuel inefficient (older engines and framework not being known for fuel-efficiency).

In the same vein, sometimes I'll look for historical versions or other universe versions of something I'm trying to design, and take a look at their weaknesses. I find that historical models are particularly useful too. The Monsoon I just mentioned earlier was actually loosely based on the real-life Hawker Hurricane, including the details of the construction of its fuselage.

Since Ayden's already mentioned that it's harder to find weaknesses for starfighters and the like, I thought that I'd list some of my own weakness ideas here for smaller ships just for some inspiration. Some of the may not be valid for all designs, especially combined with certain strengths:

-Armor placement: Make some armor plating weaker than it should be, or one area of the ship particularly vulnerable to enemy damage. This can be used as a trade off, upping the armor in some area, and making it weaker in other areas.

-Heavy Controls: The controls to the ship are not very responsive (try driving a car without power steering), meaning that it can't respond to split-second events as quickly compared to some of its peers.

-No ejection seat/difficult to escape: Somewhat obvious, but for PC-controlled ships, it gives you some interesting RP opportunities. On mass-produced vessels used in large battles, you're not likely to have as many skilled pilots with those ships (as they die more often). Morale with those pilots might not be the highest...

-No landing gear: Meaning it can only dock with certain ships or facilities (more of a logistical issue, especially if there's a retreat and your ships doesn't have a hyperdrive). A good canon example of that would be a Tie Fighter.

-Inferior range: Not a huge issue on carrier-bound ships, but a big problem with personal ships and transports.

-Inferior/unreliable component: Having one part of the ship be incredibly crappy (think like the hyperdrive on the Millenium Falcon). Unreliability typically works best on PC/unique ships, whereas a generally crappy component might be something more easily found on a mass-produced vessel.

-No Life support: Crews have to wear special suits (ala Tie Fighter pilots) which are generally uncomfortable and limited in duration.

-High-Torque engines: The ship has a tendency to move to one side rather than the other, either requiring a lot of concentration, or making the craft's performance very...special...if it gets even a little bit damaged.

-Cramped: This works best for Player vessels and can even be used for some character development, especially with multiple characters travelling on the same ship (like the Mudsloth in the Black Fleet crisis)
 
[member="Ayden Cater"]

The root cause of this issue is simple: Respect for the idea. Those who don't respect what is being asked are doing it for one of two reasons, and only one of these reasons is excusable.

1. Lack of knowledge: This is fine, and should be picked up by the factory judges. This is quite literally their job. If they don't educate the submitter, it should be reported as such when these ships are discovered.

2. Lack of respect: This is when a person deliberately contradicts their submission's weakness in the description or other area, or in combat. Likewise, this is the factory judge or role play judge's jobs to enforce these submissions or during RP if reported by players.

I've done my absolute best to sincerely give my ships balanced weaknesses and strengths. However I would say that listing your ship as being slower than similar vessels in its' class is in fact, a viable weakness. However saying that your cruiser is slower than a starfighter, well, that's kind of cheesing the rules and should not be allowed to pass factory judgement at all.
 
: Grabs Soap Box:

Personally I think you guys are making mountains out of molehills here and looking at it wrong. The idea of a triangle is rather quite wrong as there are far more areas of concern then just three points. Looking at Tanks, the M1 Abrams has high armor, stupid fire power and great speed and mobility, that is IRL that is factual no one designs something to be weak in any area unless it is unavoidable. There is never going to be anything made weak in X, strong in Y because its a waste of money and resources. If you want to try to make a trade off make it utility based and not any single X factor. While the Abrams is strong, mobile and has hella fire power it has weaknesses that don't involve any of those.

You can jam up its tracks far easier then penetrating its armor, it lacks a lot of sensors and electronic counter measures, and of course it can't hit every angle of every degree but its still going to take that anti-tank missile and laugh, its still going to go hella fast as a MBT and its still going to obliterate anything it draws its main canon on.
 
[member="Arumi Zy"] I think the point that Ayden was getting at is that people are blatantly contradicting themselves in their product by listing a weakness that it in fact, does not have. I don't think it is so much what the weakness is, more so that it is in fact, not a weakness at all.
 
[member="Seraphina Shel'tah"] Maybe it looks to me hes angry its not weaknesses that key in on one area or the other etc. Either way my point kind of stands,
 
I believe in real weaknesses, organic ones, not forced ones because your ship needs one to pass judgment. If your ship is properly balanced and it has correct weaknesses and strengths that balance each other out then you shouldn't need to worry. But maximizing strengths and maximizing weaknesses is not a proper way to handle things either, neither is maximizing a weakness on a larger scale than the strengths you're asking for. Having an advanced targetting computer shouldn't mean your ship can't move fast or that the guns can't be larger in number, it doesn't make any sense at all from a manufacturer standpoint. If your weaknesses and strengths don't make sense you'll be asked to change them.

Also, for armor submissions, if your armor has no noticeable weaknesses do not feel pressured to make one up. You don't need one. If it isn't anti-lightsaber, that isn't a weakness - nearly everything is susceptible to a super-heated plasma rod.
 
[member="Silara"] I think you pretty much summed up weaknesses and what we need in them. Though i understand everyones point in this thread its a matter of opinion what constitutes proper weaknesses and balance and that is exactly why we have Staff dedicated to keeping balance and order. Why its fine to have a general idea of what a balance trade off is, saying that if X is strong then Y must be weak is not a good way to do it. As my abrams example stands, The M! Abrams MBT IRL is fast, armored and heavily armed but it lacks much utility and you can make it go bat out of hell fast but you have to replace 3/4 of the engine after you pull the safety switch for over drive. Weaknesses need to be organic, not forced.

If i make a Destroyer designed to be a Brawler, its going to be Armored, Armed to the teeth, And fast and manueverable because its a close range vessel. Its going to get chewed up trying to get close if it isn't armored heavily, its worthless if it isn't packing for Tyranosaurs and if its to slow and bulky to actually reach enemy ships its yet again worthless. Maybe not having long range weaponry, advance super computers aiming consoles etc like a long range vessel doesn't seem like its much of a weakness due to its design, but you can chew it up and put a hurt on it if you primary it before it even gets in range to counter. There are far to many ways to actually balance to try to make an concrete list of definitive X,Y,Z balances.
 

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