Discussion How Do We Tell Better Stories Through PvP?

[Braze]

This is a sincere question for writers who enjoy invasions, skirmishes, duels, political opposition, and other forms of adversarial roleplay:

What makes PvP produce a genuinely good story for everyone involved?

I do not believe good opposition requires characters to stop pursuing victory IC. Characters should have goals, prepare intelligently, and attempt to overcome their enemies. OOC, however, both writers should leave room for resistance, consequences, unexpected developments, and the other person’s actions to matter.

I would especially appreciate thoughts on the following:

What makes someone enjoyable to write opposition against?
How do you acknowledge attacks and counters without assuming damage or no-selling the attempt?
Where is the distinction between competent preparation and “playing to win”?
How can experienced invasion writers help newer writers understand what works?
What makes you trust an opposing writer enough to accept serious consequences?
What causes promising PvP stories to break down?

Concrete examples would be helpful, especially examples of exchanges that created lasting character development regardless of who technically won. Please avoid naming and shaming anyone when discussing negative experiences.

I would like to gather practical advice that writers can actually use, perhaps even enough to create a community guide with examples of effective opposition, reciprocal consequences, and common mistakes.

Good opposition should be confident and competent. It should challenge our characters, make their choices matter, and leave both writers interested in what happens next…so how do we create more of that together?

 

[Romul Saxon]

I enjoyed my fight against Darth Strosius and I think it comes down to mentality, perhaps. As another writer once put it to me, I see opps as my opponents, not enemies, like a wrestling match in WWE (I don’t watch WWE lol). A fight where both parties take blows and dish them out in turn is great. I try to refrain from going overboard to the limits of what can feasibly be done by my char with a reciprocal PVP partner because it’ll make a better experience.

Elaborating on fighting Stro, it came out of an ambush and both took each other by surprise. Stro shattered Romul’s hammer and had him on the ground; his arm got frozen by Romul’s cryoban blaster and shattered in the process. Neither of us were trying to stomp the other into the ground.

On the other hand, my experience the more I’ve tried to godmod my opponent, the less responsive they are and the spiral escalation of no hit taking and godmoding gets out of control very quickly and makes for a negative experience.

 

[Kurayami Bloodborn]

Read up on your opponent. Check their bio, equipment, ship, factory subs, etc. Have an idea of what you are up against. And respect that. If you aren't prepared and they did their due diligence by linking everything in their first post, (yes, equipment only NEEDS linking in post one), then it is up to you to get an idea of what that means. If you are confused, ask for clarification. If you don't and you 'lose' the matchup, too bad. Try again later.

Honestly, the duels and fleeting are just there for spice to drive the narrative forward. So relax, keep open communication when needed and be respectful. Then PvP will be enjoyable. For you and them.

 

[Quinn Varanin]

I will disagree with Kurayami Bloodborn on this one. I never read up on my opponent I like the discovery process of trial and error. I think that helps add to story imo. I also like having some history or something to cling to for character development.

All in all I honestly think you’re over thinking it Braze at the end of the day this is fun and as long as you and your writing partner are having fun and get something out of it character wise or even just overall fun then it’s a great story.

 

[Taiia Locke]

Romul Saxon Kurayami Bloodborn have the right of it. Ultimately, PvP in invasions, at least, is there to drive the overall narrative. Some become far too focused on winning when the point is collaborative writing and pushing the overall narrative of your side. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't tell your own story within the context. Absolutely do that, but weave it in a way that makes sense and communicate with your opposition.

Also, Quinn Varanin has a similar mindset to me reading up on somebody before a fight, I could do that. But I'm old school; I like to go in blind and be forced to adapt. Mistakes will be genuine so will the corrections. I find that to be some of the most fun writing when you are forced to adapt and change.

TLDR: Work with and communicate with your opposition. Tell a fun story while pushing the overall narrative, don't try to win.

 

[The Arkanian]

Why do we watch a show or read a book or see a movie?

To see the hero overcome all adversity without breaking a sweat as superior technology and skills batter the enemy into a pulp?

Or

To watch as an individual must overcome extreme adversity and suffering and in the end perhaps not even truly win save to achieve a greater understanding or life lesson?

A story is about struggle and sacrifice. Without it they’re just words on a screen.

 

[Sahan Dragr]

Things I've been asking myself and learning along the way. Can't say I'm quite there yet. Still learning and improving. But I've certainly come a long way since I first started. And I'll take any and all advice I to consideration, so I'm definitely down for these types of discussions. Always willing to improve my writing.

 

[Aether Verd]

Hi replying on break, typing fast, GO:


1. Someone who uses purple prose sparingly so their attacks are clear and not the "I gotcha with thesaurus-no-jutsu" from 2008. Someone who is writing a character that matters to them, has a clear reason/story/motivation for being in the invasion. (The era of spawning an alt a week before the invasion to die dramatically for tension points is long gone, I hope.) And lastly, a collaborative mindset. (Collaborative meaning that they genuinely give/take and want to work towards a good story, not the infamous Chaos variety where "if you don't give me what I want you're not collaborating, I'm telling!")

2. When launching an attack, paint a picture of how much damage/strong it is with environmental storytelling. It's up to the opponent to figure their way out of it, but they can at least make an informed decision on how to do so if they know how much actual oomph is behind it. Also, take your licks. No hero in any media emerges from a fight unscathed. Hope for the same courtesy to your opponent and ball out.

3. Difference between "I always have this gear linked" and "oh we're fighting Jedi? I'm spawning in with a thing(s) that makes their usual kit entirely invalidated."

4. It's not really up to them, the inexperienced/new writers just have to get in invasions, write, and get feedback.

5. Nothing. My opponent decides the damage/consequences they take.

6. Ego, mostly.

Kbai

 

[Briana Sal-Soren]

What makes someone enjoyable to write opposition against?

Open communication, a willingness to go with the flow, someone who brings in a few unexpected surprises, and a partner who supports your story as much as you're supporting theirs. Reciprocation is a good thing.

How do you acknowledge attacks and counters without assuming damage or no-selling the attempt?

I can't see a scenario where you acknowledge an attack, but take no damage. Unless you've redirected the attack. But how many times can you do that realistically, before it becomes clear that you don't actually care about the integrity of the writers character?

In any duel you are in, your character needs to/should be taking some damage. That doesn't mean you have to take limb loss, etc. unless that's something agreed to beforehand, but if every attack slides off of you or your opponent, that's just not enjoyable for anyone.

Also, if you are writing against someone weaker, and your character is so powerful that they can't take damage without 6+ posts of back and forth writing... that is not enjoyable either, unless those posts are exceptionally short.

Luke was not a Jedi Master who trained for years and years, but was able to not only fight Darth Vader, but nearly kill him.

Where is the distinction between competent preparation and “playing to win”?

I don't think there is one. Everyone who joins an invasion wants their side to win, and that's okay. Competition is normal, just don't be a jerk about it.

How can experienced invasion writers help newer writers understand what works?

Finding a veteran invasion writer who will partner with you is usually the best way to get your sea legs, I think. Good for getting pointers, suggestions, etc. and makes it easier to get involved in the story, without feeling lost in it.

What makes you trust an opposing writer enough to accept serious consequences?

A lot of communication and agreement beforehand.

What causes promising PvP stories to break down?

See all points above.

 

[Joy]

What makes someone enjoyable to write opposition against?

I want to feel like my character is fighting or talking in a scene from a Star Wars film, or a chapter in a book, or a panel on comic. There has to be stakes involved. Consequences for either character as they contest each other in a Lightsaber duel, gun fight, dog fighting (starfighters), or even when it comes down to political roleplaying.

What I don't enjoy is reading 500+ words of someone trying to score hits. Wordplay that positions their character in such a way that they "should" land a hit. I don't like it when someone incorporates information, such as weaknesses I have put in my biography, or they have "heard" about something that my character has done because it would be "public knowledge" when we haven't interacted before. I don't like it when someone reads the tags under my character and roleplays "Force sensing" who they are or what they are.

I like realism. When a character gets hit by a Lightsaber then they lose. If you get shot then you're done. If I have been caught lying then I will be proven to be dishonest. I don't like it when people assume things because they think they're roleplaying a clever character. Ultimately what I find enjoyable about someone being opposition to me is the telling of a good story. You have to ask yourself questions such as, "Would this read well if I was reading a book?" or, "Would this be entertaining in a film or TV show?"

In essence roleplaying Star Wars should feel like you're in the universe itself. I can't be like Anakin Skywalker and I wouldn't want my character to be a carbon copy of him. But I've seen how Anakin was written well and how he was written badly. Less of the bad and more of the good is applicable to roleplaying a character on this website.

How do you acknowledge attacks and counters without assuming damage or no-selling the attempt?

I don't. As I said before: if my character is struck by a Lightsaber, or they are shot by a gun, then they are done. You don't get up from being hit like this. It possible to survive a wound by such weaponry but the chances are that they aren't likely going to be.

Where is the distinction between competent preparation and "playing to win"?

If I am writing with someone and the beginning of their post contains 10+ links to Factory submissions then I am assuming that they are playing to win. I am guilty of doing this myself as of recently during T.I.C's first invasion in Brosi and that will be the last time I try to gamify my involvement in an invasion. Playing to win becomes obvious from the first couple of posts, and particularly, if the person I am writing with begins asking me OOC if I am ever going to take a hit. Thankfully I haven't had interactions like that in several years.

Competent preparation becomes clear through the first interactions that I have with someone's posts and if they reach out to me OOC. I can't explain what it looks like because it is nuanced and everyone is different so having expectations can be a hindrance.

How can experienced invasion writers help newer writers understand what works?

By writing with them. You have to actually take someone who is new to the website and show them a good time. I think I did this when Varin Mortifer was new to Chaos last year during the first Brosi invasion. I don't write that character anymore but I think I gave him a good first experience in an invasion.

To Varin's credit he didn't do any of this next bit so this isn't applicable. But if a new writer powergames or metagames me then I would tell them politely about it, and if they argued back, or were being oblivious on purpose, then I wouldn't write with them anymore. You have to treat new writers like you would anyone who is new and I personally like to go out of my way to give new writers a good time if I know that they are new. First impressions go a long way.

What makes you trust an opposing writer enough to accept serious consequences?

I don't trust them. I trust myself.

What causes promising PvP stories to break down?

When a writer reads that you are a Sith Lord (or something similar) and automatically Force Senses that you are aligned to the Dark Side.

When someone writes a character that they clearly think is stronger than yours and cannot be beaten.

The expectation that at some point in the story both of our characters have to sustain an injury or "take a hit" when the story doesn't necessarily call for one.

When the environment or objective of the invasion is forgotten about and replaced by the "you vs me" thing that some people do. If we're fighting in space and I roleplay both of us being in a zero gravity then you should adapt to the circumstances as I would if my opponent did the same. If we are fighting in an invasion objective then the objective itself should be an important factor in the duel.

When an invasion has been decided by an administrator (after the two weeks is up) and a faction has been declared the winner only for my opponent to stop posting because their faction won or lost. Finish the story even if it is a post of you suddenly retreating and leaving the scene.

Continuous asking for edits in posts through the entire fight. I understand asking for one but if you're continually asking me to edit my posts, particularly when they are minor details, then I am just going to stop interacting with you and we won't write together again at least for awhile.

Complaining. I think like 99% of us are adults? So we should be able to talk things out without complaints or moaning.

"I can't lose." No, you can lose this fight. Just like I can.

Going into fights with preconceived ideas already in mind. Roleplaying is about reaction and interaction. Not planning. The only planning involved, particularly for invasions, should be the scenario and objectives of the thread. After that it comes down to how you play your character in that environment.

Sneak attacks are great. If someone has set up someone else's character to attack you from behind, when I wasn't expecting it, then it is what it is. If you don't like the idea of being teamed then don't put your character in an objective where multiple other characters are fighting around you. Everything should be fair game.

 

[Colette]

Equivalent exchange, I'd say.

A hit for a hit, a miss for a miss. I will let you shred my character to near-death if you are willing to let me do the same. That takes trust, trust is easily destroyed. So if I take a massive blow and you take nothing, or worse: argue about why you shouldn't take one because of your gear or minute details of your movements then you are more interested in winning than I am. Nothing wrong with that but I despise it and refuse to engage in it.

Oh and, no. I never read subs. Happy for you, bud. My lightsaber deflects blasters and my armor is made of plot.

 

[Allyson Locke]

I want to feel like my character is fighting or talking in a scene from a Star Wars film, or a chapter in a book, or a panel on comic. There has to be stakes involved. Consequences for either character as they contest each other in a Lightsaber duel, gun fight, dog fighting (starfighters), or even when it comes down to political roleplaying.

I am sorry. I am trigger happy ;-;

 

[Saul Whesai]

A hit for a hit, a miss for a miss. I will let you shred my character to near-death if you are willing to let me do the same. That takes trust, trust is easily destroyed. So if I take a massive blow and you take nothing, or worse: argue about why you shouldn't take one because of your gear or minute details of your movements then you are more interested in winning than I am. Nothing wrong with that but I despise it and refuse to engage in it.

I've had a lot more misses than hits in the PVP Space. Part of it is with me is communication, which I know I'm not the best at. And I've just had a lot of bad luck. And I purposely avoid PVP threads because of it. As someone who has tried and failed a lot of the time, all I can say to someone new is try, try again.

You get what you give, and as long as those scales are even for both writers, both should walk away happy. And then you can have a writer you can trust the next time the next time you want to try fisticuffs. Otherwise, know when to take a break and walk away before things get bad. This is supposed to be fun, and when it isn't, maybe it's time to stop hitting your head against a brick wall and give the space a break, as I did.

 

[Kitter Bitters]

I probably have a weird take on this, but I'll share it anyway. I'm always open to constructive criticism, of course.

At the end of the day, I think sometimes we forget that roleplaying is a game.

I loathe having to read pages and pages of lore, tech submissions, backstory, rules, and supplemental material just to participate in a thread. I don't want to do four hours of homework before I can play a hobby that I'm supposed to be doing for fun.

I also loathe writing with someone who asks me to edit every other post. If there is a genuine misunderstanding or something important needs to be corrected, that's one thing. But if I'm constantly being asked to rewrite, adjust, clarify, or change things because every tiny detail needs to be perfect, I'm eventually going to lose interest and drop out.

Because again: this is a game. It's supposed to be fun. It shouldn't feel like work.

I think this is especially important when it comes to battles.

Roleplaying is never going to look or feel exactly like an epic battle in a movie, television show, novel, or video game. We are a group of people sitting at our computers, taking turns writing posts. We don't have a hundred-million-dollar special effects budget. We don't have music swelling in the background, professional choreography, cinematic camera angles, thousands of soldiers rendered on screen, or a game engine making everything happen instantly.

And that's okay.

We don't need to recreate a movie.

Sometimes I think we put so much pressure on battles to be epic that we make them less enjoyable to actually participate in. Every troop movement doesn't need to be perfectly calculated. Every weapon doesn't need a technical dissertation behind it. Every post doesn't need to account for twenty different variables. Every mistake doesn't need to become an argument.

A roleplaying battle is always going to be an imperfect collaborative story told one post at a time. That is the medium.

To me, the goal isn't to create the most technically accurate, strategically flawless, cinematic battle anyone has ever written. The goal is for the people involved to have a good time telling a story together.

Communicate with your writing partners. Be reasonable. Take hits. Give the other person opportunities to do cool things. Don't try to "win" just play to have fun. Roll with things when they don't go exactly the way you imagined. And unless something genuinely affects the fairness of the game, don't dissect every sentence looking for a problem.

If you want a perfectly choreographed epic battle where everything happens exactly the way one person envisioned it, write a novel. If you want incredible visuals, watch a movie or play a video game.

Roleplaying is something else.

It's collaborative, messy, unpredictable, and sometimes a little silly. You are creating something with another person who has their own ideas and their own imagination. Writing part of a battle is never going to be the same as watching a full one or reading / writing a full one.

TLDR: Roleplaying is different than movies and video games. Battles aren't going to be the same. Just have fun, relax, and enjoy. Nobody wants to read a billion tech subs or be asked to edit all the time. Just go with the flow.

 

[Quinn Varanin]

:c I really like reading and getting lore from my writing partner. It enriches the character even more and gives me a glimpse of the story I’m being included on

 

[Mellifluous Magenta]

Reading is a part of this hobby just as much as writing is.

 

[Kitter Bitters]

:c I really like reading and getting lore from my writing partner. It enriches the character even more and gives me a glimpse of the story I’m being included on

Reading is a part of this hobby just as much as writing is.

I think this brings up another good tip. Find people who vibe in similar styles as you. There is no right or wrong way. If the people who like to write those subs team up with the people who like to read them then hot damn that's gonna be a fun time. So finding people who have your vibe helps.

 

[Quinn Varanin]

Sure but, I’m not just talking the submissions, like we work hard on our characters back stories and then RP them through their journey. To hear that a potential writing partner just doesn’t want to be bothered kind of sucks. I like the depth that comes with writing and role playing.

But you’re right we gotta find the people that vibe with us.

 

[Kitter Bitters]

Sure but, I’m not just talking the submissions, like we work hard on our characters back stories and then RP them through their journey. To hear that a potential writing partner just doesn’t want to be bothered kind of sucks. I like the depth that comes with writing and role playing.

But you’re right we gotta find the people that vibe with us.

I think it’s just different schools of thoughts. I personally don’t want to read pages and pages of info before I play, but when I have time I enjoy reading things. I just don’t want it to be a prerequisite.

 

[The Arkanian]

I loathe having to read pages and pages of lore, tech submissions, backstory, rules, and supplemental material just to participate in a thread. I don't want to do four hours of homework before I can play a hobby that I'm supposed to be doing for fun.

100% and it starts to turn into a tabletop at a certain point