Feedback: Claiming What is Empty

[Eun]

Ok, so [member="Aedan Miles"], we all know what went down in this thread:
http://starwarsrp.net/topic/69432-claiming-what-is-empty/

My question is for you and the community at large, as it is not the first time that it's happened. I'm sure I've done it too.

Why do so many of us lock down a thread when things don't go our way and then pretend as if it never happened?

Why do we deny our failures and constantly claim our characters are badass?

Why do we deny the views of others on our character and instead insistent that our utopic idea of our character is the only thing that can be true?

Why don't we take such instances of failure and use them to build up the characters? I.E. Aedan Miles, made the butt of a Mandalorian joke after his attempt to claim the title, thrusts himself into the fray against the evil X people, desperate to prove his worth. Or, Aedan Miles, distraught over the rejection of his own people, removes himself from Mandalorian space and now roves the galactic edges, searching for a sense of purpose.

This is not to pick on your character, [member="Aedan Miles"], but rather to highlight a trend I've noticed in the community at large and am guilty of myself on occasion. It's also the main reason why roleplaying seems utterly banal to me of late.

Bottomline is that we only accept instances of failure that we, the writer, set up for our character. Anyone inducing failures from outside our perspective is rejected.

There is a fundamental lack of incorporating personality/social failings in particular (not physical combat defeats) that I find troubling.

Thoughts?

 

[Jairus Starvald]

I think part of the answer is already hidden inside your question, namely:

Anyone inducing failures from outside our perspective is rejected.

I think we have a hard time accepting effects on our characters made outside of our choosing once we realize that we can deny them, because it's easier to just keep on pushing your own view of 'total badass' than to own up that the vision you have of your creation might not be how the rest of the board sees it.

In a lot of ways it's comparable to when parents have children - and sometimes these children do something wrong, which gets relayed back to the parents again... but instead of accepting that, they will deny it, because it's their child and (s)he would never do that.

Not sure if that makes sense to anyone outside me, but that's how I look at it.

 

[Darth Carnifex]

I'm infallible*, so none of this affects me in the slightest.

[member="Katya Shorn"]

* Extremely False

 

[Eun]

Yeah, that makes sense, Carach. I guess the goal of this discussion, for me, is to have the community come to a consensus that that is actually 'bad' and something we should not do. Hopefully that and the discourse'll seep into the public conscious and reverse some of the trends.

 

[Ashin Varanin]

The kicker is - and this comes back to the banality you mentioned - there's nothing at stake without real risks that come from others. People who engage fully with the galaxy on its own terms, take their lumps, and roll with the punches - by and large, I think those are the people who get the most out of RP.

 

[Nima Tann]

What happened in the thread? I think I missed it.

 

[Gherron Dragovalor]

Personally, I've always been able to go with the flow on my characters, or at this point, just one, Gherron. The reason is simple: There is no practical way we can always control every outcome of every situation. Thimgs sre gonna happen. And honestly I think that it's these things that are not in our control that make us better writers in the long run, and give more depth to our characters. I've been playing Gherron for about two years now, and no matter what happens to him, he always manages to get back up. He's been near-dying so many times now I can't count. I've put him through some crap. But in the end, I woukdnt have it any other way. I rather like the way he's turned out.

 

[Artemis Vahl'Nyx]

I kinda like rolling with the punches. I used to want everything to go as planned for my characters (because I had sweet plans, I swear), but after a while I kinda tried to let things go with the flow.
Next thing I knew Nyx was dead and I was excited about the opportunities it brought up. Who woulda known?

 

[Eun]

He's been near-dying so many times

This goes back to the last bit I mention.

Lots of people are cool with their character going through harrowing physical experiences. That's just a scar they can point to later and be like, "look at how B.A. I was."

The real gut punch, from what I've seen, is when characters interact with others on a social level and the writer has one view of how their character should be that is just completely at odds with how that character is perceived. Which leads to a generalized bifurcation and some harsh truths that we've all had to learn:

1. Either my writing isn't as good as I think it is and I need to fix that so that my character is perceived the way I want them to be. (this could just be a stylistic/clunky dialogue issue)

2. My character is straight up not who I thought he/she is and probably now realizes that she isn't who she thought she was. Maybe I should take some time to reflect on this and integrate that inner conflict.

IRL this would be that moment when you realize that you just failed all your college classes out of high school and need to actually work hard. Or that moment when you wonder why all your friends fri-vorced you and then you realize it's because you've been a massive jerk about X issue. Or that moment when-

You don't really see that being mentioned a lot in RP, from my experiences. Probably because it really isn't fun to realize that you're the guy nobody wants at the party.

 

[Akio Diachi]

Yeah, I have seen what you mean,[member="Katya Shorn"] on others sites. I guess the frank (and sad, cause its true, I have done it too) truth is that we have built this idea so much we don't really wanna see it fall. Like what [member="Darth Carach"] said. For me, I think its also that we want to be so superior that we will do whatever it takes, even play badly and ruin awesome character dev to be that way. I did it a lot early on with my early role play characters.

It wasn't until I was playing a badass half elf lvl 11 on Pathfinder's system in table top that I realized how fun it was to acutally "flow." I rolled a natural one on a will save, and then another one in a row. Translation: I made an EPIC fail. On par with when Darth Maul gets cut in two in Episode 1. My character went from an honor-bound awesome hero to (by the game mechanics) a wild, insane razor-blade touting mass-murderer. (Think: Joker). I was so angry at first. Then when I actually gave it a chance I acutally loved it.

Moral of the story: Sometimes playing the character you didnt want to is ten times more fun that the up-tight badass, too-cool for school character you originally invented.
Second Moral of the story: dont roll two ones on a will save

 

[Eun]

For me, I think its also that we want to be so superior that we will do whatever it takes, even play badly and ruin awesome character dev to be that way.

*frantically sweeps misdeeds under the rug*

Definitely been there.

I was so angry at first. Then when I actually gave it a chance I acutally loved it.

That's an awesome story. Maybe the issue in RP is that there is no DM? It's all up to the writer. And sometimes the writer can't get past that first stage of anger.

People who engage fully with the galaxy on its own terms, take their lumps, and roll with the punches - by and large, I think those are the people who get the most out of RP.

Sounds about right. For me, the kicker was when I looked around and realized I was surrounded by dozens of Mary Sues and was probably writing several Mary Sues. Or maybe the inhibitor is a naive longing for some sort of equalizing fairness.

 

[Gherron Dragovalor]

@Akio Diachi

YES. Just yes. This is exactly what I was trying to point out before. Sure, everyone has an idea of where they want their character to be in a set amount of time. But if you can accept the fact that it may not end up the way you want all the time, you actually have a lot of fun. Gherrons character at first was intended to be a rough cut who becomes an honored Jedi in the end. Now he's a self-exile on some planet he doesn't know because he lost his cool and did something stupid. In my opinion, way cooler than what I had planned.

 

[Akio Diachi]

That's an awesome story. Maybe the issue in RP is that there is no DM? It's all up to the writer. And sometimes the writer can't get past that first stage of anger.

Well, yeah that is a viable thought. Not gonna lie, the first time I saw forum-based role play I almost had a panic attack; who would ensure order? Who would make sure we dont God-mod? WHO WOULD RECOGNIZE MY SUPERIOR AWESOMENESS????????

Really, though, its been pretty freeing. I think that as long a we dont take ourselves too seriously we will be a-ok, willing to roll with the punches and take it all in stride. I am a pyschology major, working my way towards the doctrate so I can be a councilor. One of the things about relationships that I learned reccently in male-female roles is to "sit loose in the saddle." I think this applies to all of life, really. Be ok with being the fool, just be willing to grow up and not stay the same. BUUUUUUUT that's my two cents.

PS: If someone needs grievance counciling to get past that first stage of anger: I have low hourly rates

 

[Eun]

I am a pyschology major, working my way towards the doctrate so I can be a councilor

That's awesome!

I had a few thoughts on the psychological reasonings for why, specifically in an online RP setting, people don't want to let their characters fail. But I think that might get a little too real for everyone, including myself, lol. Very cool profession though.

 

[Akio Diachi]

[member="Gherron Vael"] Exactly, bro. Exactly.

[member="Katya Shorn"] Thanks.

 

[Julius Sedaire]

The thread was pretty much a joke, done half-heartedly in an open attempt by the author to snag IC power and 'shinies' as it were. As such, I treated it thusly with my whopping one post in it. The Faction he was trying to seize power in that is in question is debating about whether they even want the next Manda'lor to be a PC of not. Jumping like the OP of your linked thread did is just, to put it in blunt terms 'a dick move' in most accepted societies. And so, therefore, you had some people reacting as I did - Goofy lighthearted mocking humor to point out the absurdity. And other people took it a little too seriously. But I don't truly see any deep rooted meaning you can ascribe to the thread, as when you lay it bare for what it was by the OP, it's one you have to shake your head at and go 'And just what did you expect to happen here, really?'

Basically? You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. This thread illustrates that in multitudes.

 

[Eun]

Basically? You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. This thread illustrates that in multitudes.

You're right, but it'd be nice if people, instead of just being rejected for something they'll probably do again, actually took that as a learning experience.

Maybe that's just #naivety?

Again, it sounds as if I'm bashing on specific people. I am. But I also know I do the same thing. This is a team building effort, not a smear campaign.

 

[Julius Sedaire]

[member="Katya Shorn"] - Aedan isn't an idiot. He can also read the faction forums. You'd have to be an idiot to not see the faction forums and know the group was going utterly nuts at the time he posted the thread. Hell, it still is for that matter. The fact that he posted it, and legit (in his mind) tried to take advantage of a bad situation for personal gain makes me look at the other writers responses (which, normally I'd chide them over or reject) and go 'Eh, come on, you had to know to expect this'. Normally, i'd agree with you. However, in this instance, I think he got a strong bit of feedback.

He made this attempt without planning, his character is honestly barely involved in the faction at large (I.E. a large segment of the newer face of the population has had next to zero interaction with him), and he got a fairly appropriate response of 'WTF do you think you are doing?'.

Again, play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. And what Aedan tried to pull was extremely stupid, plain and simple. People don't like it when others act on authority they don't actually have, seize power they've not really earned, or boss and bully them. He sorta did shadings of all three of that, and frankly i'm surprised things weren't worse in that thread because of it.

 

[Artemis Vahl'Nyx]

The real gut punch, from what I've seen, is when characters interact with others on a social level and the writer has one view of how their character should be that is just completely at odds with how that character is perceived.

Ah, this is something I think I've struggled with a bit more with, both in the past and recently. Most of us want to write BA characters, yes? So we want others to see our characters as BA. 'Alas', we aren't always as cool as we think we are, and we typically want to be seen as cool right from the get-go. Not everyone wants to put in the work to get a (IC) reputation as a totally cool, bad-ass, charming/sassy (but lovable) person. Because c'mon, we're already totally the coolest, right?...

Like in RL though, you can't just walk into a room and immediately get respect. You gotta do something to deserve it, or at least seem like you deserve it. And even then not everyone is going to bow down to you or kiss the ground you walk on. The Queen of England could walk into a room and there would still be people who just treated her like any other person. For the most part though, a lot of folks are going to give her respect. Why? Because, well, she's earned it in their eyes. She's the Queen.

Are our characters all Queens? Nope. Are some of them? Yup. But we're also playing on a galactic scale, meaning that the Queen of RandomPlanetMostPeopleHaventHeardOf isn't going to seem that special. Other characters start out with even less 'rep' or 'power'. A lot of us start out as simple soldiers, apprentices, or nobodies. We have to work our way up into the realm of notoriety and well-known badassery. That's just not something people are always going to want to do.

I'm repeating myself a lot, aren't I?

1. Either my writing isn't as good as I think it is and I need to fix that so that my character is perceived the way I want them to be. (this could just be a stylistic/clunky dialogue issue)

2. My character is straight up not who I thought he/she is and probably now realizes that she isn't who she thought she was. Maybe I should take some time to reflect on this and integrate that inner conflict.

Ah, number one, my old (and probably current) nemesis. I know who my characters are. I know what they mean when they say/do things. But getting other people to understand what I mean? Even if only OOC? That's something I've had trouble with. In the past I've gone to 'great lengths' to try and remedy 'misunderstandings', often times messing up my character's personality in the process. Just because I want people to see the character the way I do. Honestly, I probably still do this a lot, but I can't remember any specific events from the past few months.

Number two is something I don't feel as familiar with. There have been times where I've realized that my character isn't entirely what I thought they were, but this (for me) is usually less because of failed attempts at socializing, and more just me running head-first into a brick wall of muse/plot points.

 

[Kyber Salurra]

Being a player who's been here a fair amount of time, but still only has a bit over 100 posts, I can say with almost complete assurance that people don't just deny social conflict or physical conflict, but also preemptively cut-off the chance of it happening whatsoever. I could link at a dozen threads where everyone seems to be doing their part in the RP experience, someone will join in, people see that the addition of this new character with conflicting/different viewpoints will set up their character in a direction I would not like to go, and then just stop. I have copious amounts of "abandoned" threads on my character bio page, but it's not like I just decided to quit the thread, the thread just completely died after my post, or someone else's refusal to post.

People will have one idea, person, or purpose in mind for their character whether it be a love interest, enemy, or capital venture and they get tunnel vision, not accepting any other reality and I have to say that when people do that it pisses me off the most. I can deal with people wanting to have their character go the way they want. It's their story, they want to portray it the way they want, it makes sense. I get it, but when someone doesn't have the common courtesy to respond or at least send the group a pm saying; "hey sorry, i'm backing out of this thread for various reasons" or "IRL is getting busy, go on without me", that's when i get frustrated. I just put in a lot of time and effort into a post i can be happy with and you don't even have the decency to give any sort of inclination of your refusal to continue? That's just rude and extremely frustrating for the person at the back end. I'm sorry if I brought this thread a bit off topic, I just needed to share that, as from the perspective of someone who's trying to find his 'niche' in the community I can say for sure that it can be a struggle that really makes you question your purpose for still trying to be here.

Anyway, that's just my two-cents on the matter.