Factory Allowing Users to Edit Their Own Approved Submissions

[Onrai]

Taking heed from what John Locke suggested in the most recent factory update thread, I'd like to put forward the suggestion that users be allowed to edit their own submissions after they were previously approved. The following is the logic:

• Currently new submissions to the factory are allowed to be used in any thread after their submission, regardless as to whether it has been formally approved or not. This indicates the factory staff put the burden of the submission's acceptability on the user themselves and have faith the user's application meets factory standards.
• Modifying submissions currently requires requesting a sub moved to the pre-factory, editing it, then requesting the sub be moved back to the factory and reapproved. This is a tedious and inefficient system, compared to the one prior.
• The system prior to this was requesting that the FJ or RPJ edit the submission per the user's request. This system was far more ergonomic than the current system, but was changed as the staff wants to make sure, to quote the admin, "a submitter can make sure the submission exactly reflects their wants and desires."
• The factory is going to reopen tomorrow. Hundreds of new ship, vehicle, weapon, and tech submissions are going to flood the factory for approval or disapproval. This will put a tremendous burden on even the recently increased factory staff, which will take them away from being able to swiftly respond to requests for sub-shuffling.

As such, I would like to formally request that members be given the ability to edit their previously approved submissions. This has a number of significant advantages and would merely be reinforcement of the prior faith provided to users through the factory.

• RPJs and FJs no longer need to deal with a backlog of moving approved subs to the pre-factory for editing, only having to worry about archival of submissions.
• Members with very large numbers of submission modification requests(and as such, transfer requests) will be able to get such done without having to wait weeks for an RPJ or FJ to assist.
• This can allow older subs out of compliance with current factory standards to be modified in order to fit the current factory template. This also prevents an RPJ or FJ from having to pull a submission from approval and restore it for something as simple as a picture replacement, common with older subs.
• Such a policy further indicates to the memberbase that the staff views them as responsible, as similarly to items waiting in the factory for formal approval, the submission would remain approved while also being able to be appropriately updated with more history, a revised template, etc - modifications which it is worth mentioning can technically be applied to subs that are "approved" for use in threads(but pending formal approval) but sill open for editing in the factory.
  • To further clarify: Suppose I want to edit the picture on one of my preexisting subs. I currently can't do that without requesting the sub be pulled from the factory(and waiting several days or multiple weeks), going to the pre-factory with it and replacing the URL for the image at the head of the sub(and fixing spelling errors, etc), then requesting again that the sub be moved to the factory(where it technically becomes approved again) and wait for formal approval all over again. In contrast, I could make a sub that functionally is identical to the preexisting sub, put it in the factory directly, and edit it to my whims, changing pictures, text, and anything else about it at any given point in time. This can even in theory occur during invasions and skirmishes, which could allow someone to, for example, give a ship cloaking powers, or make a droid attacking a Jedi be fitted with anti-lightsaber plating. That sub would still remain functionally approved(if not formally approved) and could in theory be endlessly tinkered with at any point until either being denied or getting formal approval in the factory. Why this is able to happen for new subs and not old approved subs makes no sense given the faith in the userbase is already there that they will not abuse the ability to edit their "approved" subs.

The biggest worry I see presumed is that people will potentially abuse this during or prior to invasions, skirmishes, and other fights by editing submissions during the threads in order to gain some sort of benefit(protection from some kind of weapon, a trait useful for a character using the item, etc). My response to this is simple, and presumably identical to an issue with a submission in the factory proper waiting for formal approval: if someone believes that the item the person was using has been edited in such a way, they can report the submission and a staff member can see whether or not such abuse has occurred through checking the post's edit history, and if such has happened, the abusing user can be appropriately punished.

I believe this covers everything. Again, I feel this will significantly reduce one of the remaining burdens on the site's RPJs and FJs, allowing them to focus more on archival requests, approval of other submissions, etcetera.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

Onrai

I will put in here that John Locke has my full confidence to make changes to the system by which submissions are modified so he choose...with one exception.

There will not be a complete or permanent unlock of the approved factory or codex forums for free edit.

Since regular members cannot see the edit histories it would be unfair to allow this as one would have no idea whether a typo or a serious change to a submission was made without involving staff, the very thing you wish to reduce the workload of.

Other options may or may not be entertained at the factory admin's choice.

 

[Onrai]

Valiens Nantaris

There effectively already is for submissions that are in the factory - they are, per factory rules, functionally approved, and, not being in the "approved" section of the factory, can be edited to the user's leisure(and, as you pointed out, cannot have their edit histories seen). The lack of edit histories being seen is not really an issue, and again, with faith in the userbase being made obvious by allowing subs to already exist this way, you're simply doing the same for things that were already approved through the factory in question as opposed to solely things in the factory itself.

There is additionally no reason for a user to not be suspicious of a submission edited during an invasion or skirmish - if necessary, one could even make a rule indicating that during the "active period" of an invasion, submissions used in said invasion may not be modified, in order to minimize or prevent such tampering. That would discourage users from making edits that could seem 'suspicious' in question. Additionally, the workload of instances where an RPJ or Factory Judge examining a submission that has been reported on would still ultimately be significantly less than the number of quite frankly pointless transfers of approved subs to the pre-factory and back which were done for typo correction, image replacement, or template updates.

I admit there is a partial selfish reason for this, but it does show the absurdity in extremis - I have over 120 approved submissions either made by my company(ies) or by my character(s) specifically. The vast majority of these submissions are out of date, either made for factions that are dead, built on outdated factory templates incompatible with current factory templates, missing images, or whose templates were screwed up during the site transition. If I were to start the process of transferring all of the outdated submissions to the pre-factory so everything wrong with all of them could be edited, then requested them to be moved back to the factory, I legitimately doubt that such would be able to be finished prior to the end of this year given current factory staff response rates to transfer requests. I certainly know that there is zero chance all of them would be reapproved by the end of this year, and likely well into 2022. Even under the previous system it would take several months to effectively happen. Both would occupy more time than simply checking on subs' edit histories as they're reported for potential malfeasance.

From my examination of the system, and given John has indicated clearly that returning to a system of edit requests for subs will not be happening as he wants responsibility for modifications to approved submissions to be on the submitters, not on the factory staff, there is no other way to do this. And my 120 approved submissions are nothing compared to people who have made hundreds, potentially even thousands of approved submissions since the site started. What other option is there to decrease factory workload while allowing these submissions to be modified?

 

[Junko Ike]

As updating a sub is not mandatory thepersonal preference reduces the workload. If youwanted to update all of your submissions then go for it. The judges are pretty good when subs are requested to be moved from pre-factory to the main factory and john with his rpj's move it for edits.

Would I like to be able to edit my subs? yes sure it would be nice but I can also repost the sub as an updated version or make an advanced version of it. Self edits would mean random audits of the sections to check for edits and to see what they might have been. Changing things like production levels of subs, or resistances now. It isn't just making things stronger or specific for invasions as someone (I believe tef) said that no factory sub has won an invasion.

 

[Onrai]

I would still have to submit archival requests for said 120-plus original submissions and stuff the factory with 120-plus new submissions nearly identical to the old, except revised and updated. That would further bloat the factory unnecessarily.

 

[LT-137]

If you went about it that way, then yeah - it'd take forever and possibly bloat the Factory. But, as the modification system exists - you can request that we pull the submission from whence it resides and drop it into the pre-factory for you. once there, you can edit and update said submissions to your heart's desire.

All we need is a link to the submission(s) you want to edit, and when we have time - as we're volunteers - it's a pretty simple series of clicks to get the post moved from one place to another.

 

[Anse Baenshaol]

As much as I would love to have free edits, Chaos has seen time and time again that frankly people cannot be trusted under any circumstances where they have a loophole to exploit or to merely stick their fingers in. I would rather ask permission to do a thing, get it looked over and resub than risk manipulation and dishonesty again in a system that could and would be, if the masses held their own keys. Sorry, but no. Temptation and calamity are a thing, it will happen, so. Doors stay locked.

I'm sure my stance will ruffle the fur of others, but ye gods lets not.

 

[Onrai]

If you went about it that way, then yeah - it'd take forever and possibly bloat the Factory. But, as the modification system exists - you can request that we pull the submission from whence it resides and drop it into the pre-factory for you. once there, you can edit and update said submissions to your heart's desire.

All we need is a link to the submission(s) you want to edit, and when we have time - as we're volunteers - it's a pretty simple series of clicks to get the post moved from one place to another.

There are limitations on how many submissions can be pulled from the factory in a single request. I believe that limit may even apply to number of submissions a character can half in the pre-factory, though that may be conflating something old. And again, it would be functionally less work for me to request the archival of all old subs and submit brand new ones(120+ requests for archival) than to request said subs be pulled, get dropped into the pre-factory, then request that they get moved back to the factory so they can be reused(120+ requests for transfer to pre-factory + 120+ requests for transfer to factory, at least 240+).

As you point out, and as I know as a former FJ, yes, staff are volunteers who do what they can when they have time. I see no reason why a system that further reduces the need for factory staff to "have time" to have to dedicate to factory affairs, which instead could allow them to enjoy the forums more and do more threading, focus on factions they're a part of, and generally dedicate less of their time to the burden of managing the factory.

 

[LT-137]

I'm also speaking from personal experience as I myself have well over 120+ submissions in the factory, split between my alt accounts, and offered the best possible route towards updating one's submission(s.) But, what you do to update your submissions is entirely up to you. However, the avenue I presented is there should you desire. If you believe it's more expedient to archive everything and then update them accordingly?

Well, that's your time and not mine. lol

When it comes down to how we spend our time? As stated earlier, we're Volunteers. So, how we spend our time on Chaos is entirely up to us. We stepped up to do this work because we want to, not because we're obligated to. And honestly? That's why there's multiple Fj's on our team, and that's also including our admin and RPJs.

There's no reduction in time required, IMO, especially when this idea opens the avenue to more tedium and potential abuse by the few - rather than the many. While I appreciate the time and effort you've put into this suggestion, I'm not personally its greatest fan.

 

[Onrai]

Said “best possible route” effectively doubles the amount of work required to get a sub returned from an incomplete state in the approved list back to some level of usability as compared to archiving all the originals and resubmitting everything. Said “time” might not necessarily be yours, but it would be some factory staffer who’d end up having to transfer those subs to the archive, which the system I’m suggesting would prevent them from quite frankly having to waste time doing.

Regarding the volunteer stuff, and again speaking as a former FJ, you are absolutely right. Factory staff can dedicate as much or as little time as they want to reviewing, approving, transferring, or otherwise doing things in the factory. The problem then comes when someone on staff eventually has to do it. Current examination of unapproved Submissions go back to November. It is inevitable that those are going to get further buried in less than twelve hours as the factory is filled to the brim with new submissions that have been brewing since the cap was instated for the holidays. If nothing else, this rule would ensure that any transfers back and forth are rendered completely unnecessary, as when the staff gets to said requests, it will be a long time for whoever is stuck with having to go through them to go through them all. I understand the burden you bear as staff and am trying my best to help lighten it so it does not unnecessarily weigh you or anyone else on staff down as it weighed others down over half a decade ago when the factory judges were created to supplement the overstressed RPJs.

 

[Takui]

Said “best possible route” effectively doubles the amount of work required to get a sub returned from an incomplete state in the approved list back to some level of usability as compared to archiving all the originals and resubmitting everything. Said “time” might not necessarily be yours, but it would be some factory staffer who’d end up having to transfer those subs to the archive, which the system I’m suggesting would prevent them from quite frankly having to waste time doing.

Regarding the volunteer stuff, and again speaking as a former FJ, you are absolutely right. Factory staff can dedicate as much or as little time as they want to reviewing, approving, transferring, or otherwise doing things in the factory. The problem then comes when someone on staff eventually has to do it. Current examination of unapproved Submissions go back to November. It is inevitable that those are going to get further buried in less than twelve hours as the factory is filled to the brim with new submissions that have been brewing since the cap was instated for the holidays. If nothing else, this rule would ensure that any transfers back and forth are rendered completely unnecessary, as when the staff gets to said requests, it will be a long time for whoever is stuck with having to go through them to go through them all. I understand the burden you bear as staff and am trying my best to help lighten it so it does not unnecessarily weigh you or anyone else on staff down as it weighed others down over half a decade ago when the factory judges were created to supplement the overstressed RPJs.

It takes like two or three keystrokes to move a thread so I'm not sure why you think that archiving and rewriting your submissions would be faster, honestly.

That part of the job isn't really a huge burden on factory staff.

 

[LT-137]

Regardless of whether or not you archive or modify your submission, it takes the same amount of work/time to have a post moved from the approved section to the pre-factory and/or archived - provided that we're given a hyperlink to said submission in the first place. To be perfectly blunt, your suggestion to reduce time and our workload are effectively redundant as there isn't really anything to be removed in the first place.

What this suggestion does, from my PoV, is shift this supposed workload onto others - rather than eliminating it entirely. It also takes away accountability as the onus is on the submitter and those that report their submissions for foul-play. Since it's been brought up before and will likely be brought up until the end of time - that potential for abuse is very, very real. It only takes one bad apple to spoil a bushel, as the saying goes. So, while it would eliminate our frontend work, it would instead shift everything onto the backend.

This means what time we'd supposedly save, would be wasted in pulling unreviewed edits from people that try to game the system by increasing their ratings. As mentioned before, Factory Submissions don't win invasions, but when everyone plays fairly by the same system - there are fewer headaches to deal with in the long run, leading towards a more... healthier atmosphere in collaborative combat threads.

 

[Adron Malvern]

I see this as something that, In theory, is ok I guess but in practice there would barely be any actual gain. It's really not that hard to request a submission be edited and the factory team is usually really fast in response to those requests. This seems like a line that doesn't need to move IMO.

 

[Andromeda Malvern]

"frankly people cannot be trusted under any circumstances."

I think this is the most accurate reason to not do this.

Granted the large majority of people respect and uphold factory/codex rules but there are some that would absolutely want to take advantage and abuse the system. It would mean that judges would have to do regular sweeps of already approved and in use submissions, which would probably add to their workload overall, not take away from it.

 

[Onrai]

It takes like two or three keystrokes to move a thread so I'm not sure why you think that archiving and rewriting your submissions would be faster, honestly.

That part of the job isn't really a huge burden on factory staff.

Yes, it takes 2-3 keystrokes to move a thread. Theoretically there is nothing inhibiting the ability of factory staff from being able to instantly make such a modification or edit. However, in practice it takes multiple days if not longer than a week for many requests to be processed - certainly months even for some submissions to be either approved or denied.

Regardless of whether or not you archive or modify your submission, it takes the same amount of work/time to have a post moved from the approved section to the pre-factory and/or archived - provided that we're given a hyperlink to said submission in the first place. To be perfectly blunt, your suggestion to reduce time and our workload are effectively redundant as there isn't really anything to be removed in the first place.

False. If I make a request to modify the submission, have it pulled to the pre-factory, then make another request for it to be transferred back to the factory for reapproval, it is functionally for you and for me more work than if I request the original submission get archived and replace it with a near-identical version send to the factory proper. Additionally the time the sub spends in the "limbo" of the pre-factory, and thereby being unable to be used in threads, is far shorter for the latter given there can theoretically be minutes between when the archival request is completed and when I post a new submission in the factory(which is when the ship or item becomes functionally approved and can be used in threads), as opposed to however long it will take to make the first request to move my sub to the factory, and however long it will take the second request for it to be moved back to be processed, which functionally will take days if not weeks per request.

I think this is the most accurate reason to not do this.

Granted the large majority of people respect and uphold factory/codex rules but there are some that would absolutely want to take advantage and abuse the system. It would mean that judges would have to do regular sweeps of already approved and in use submissions, which would probably add to their workload overall, not take away from it.

There is a reason I'm suggesting this specifically for the factory and nothing aside from the factory. With the factory, you're only worrying about certain submissions. With the codex, you would be fundamentally altering things that have much further reaches and interconnect with far more things than factory subs have.

 

[LT-137]

The request to be moved into the factory proper after being finished in the pre-factory is tagging a member of factory staff, which eliminates the supposed limbo that you've presented as it takes two keystrokes from an available judge,. And as we operate from a soft approval system, as soon as it's been given an unreviewed tag, it's pretty much good to use in active roleplay threads. I would advise you to refresh yourself on the rules of this iteration of the factory to help clear up any confusion.

 

[Onrai]

Indeed, it is tagging a member of factory staff. And based on the request thread, there's an average of 4 days before said request is processed - as you've previously pointed out, FJs and RPJs volunteer so there is no actual timetable and you could be lucky to get your request process same day or be unlucky to have to wait a week before one bothers to assist. You've also completely ignored the need for another prior request to be made for said approved submissions to be moved to the pre-factory for editing, which is again on average 4 days and may range from as soon as same day to as long as a week or more - which again is why it would be easier to request all submissions to be archived and simply post the revised "finished" submissions directly in the factory, saving the submitter on average 4 days of waiting per submission while putting the subs in a place where they are automatically approved while still being able to be modified as the leisure of the submitter. And again, subs being able to be modified at the leisure of the submitter while still being functionally approved already exist - so why should formally approved subs be restricted more harshly than functionally approved subs?

I have more than refreshed myself on the rules of the current factory system. And I've found them wanting, hence having written a suggestion to reduce them.

 

[Tefka]

The Factory Admin has enough to deal with right now, and your suggestion has already been answered and entertained.

Do not be this combative with our Factory Judge volunteers.

Thread locked.