Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos
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Thoughts on Invasions
- Thread starter Judah Lesan
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Jsc
Disney's Princess
Again. Before an Invasions starts the FAs should come together and make considerations for stuff like this. That's why it's called plotting.
Understandably, most of what has happened in the past was good. Things like Objective Planning, Fleet Considerations, NPC counting, Balance Concerns, Mercenary Lists, Superweapon Permissions, and Date Scheduling. Meh. That's all well and good. But perhaps in the future we'll see FAs who council together to create more believable scenarios, tactical mash-ups, and even dramatic storylines for their invasions. Really push it over the top too. Add some spectacle every 100 posts or something. Kapow!
Now yeah. That said. There is no accounting for taste. Lulz. FvF has never exactly been pretty. Take it from the hosts of the Galactic Events? You just can't please everybody. No gift nor deed goes unpunished. Logic is lost upon the genre. Etc etc. Yada yada. ...Long story short: Compromise is a bech.
Understandably, most of what has happened in the past was good. Things like Objective Planning, Fleet Considerations, NPC counting, Balance Concerns, Mercenary Lists, Superweapon Permissions, and Date Scheduling. Meh. That's all well and good. But perhaps in the future we'll see FAs who council together to create more believable scenarios, tactical mash-ups, and even dramatic storylines for their invasions. Really push it over the top too. Add some spectacle every 100 posts or something. Kapow!
Now yeah. That said. There is no accounting for taste. Lulz. FvF has never exactly been pretty. Take it from the hosts of the Galactic Events? You just can't please everybody. No gift nor deed goes unpunished. Logic is lost upon the genre. Etc etc. Yada yada. ...Long story short: Compromise is a bech.
Ali Hadrix
Bad Boss
Well that's just all a bit pointless then.Beowoof said:
I'd honestly prefer a system where you can invade up to three connected planets away (for example only), and any success you have you see benefit from. Otherwise, what's the point? To fight with our favorite scenery in the background? That's what skirmishes are for; bs "what if" and "just for fun" battles.
Ali Hadrix
Bad Boss
Neither did I.Darth Atrophia said:
Ali Hadrix
Bad Boss
I'm actually working on something that may fix that forever.Jay Scott Clark said:
Jsc
Disney's Princess
Meh. It's been a few years now. I don't anybody can erase all the bad memories of PvP we've had on this site. The contention is strong and can hold sway in a writer's mind for great expanses of time. I've talked to many writers who loath and disdain PvP. Not on principle alone either but because of bad experiences that happened in the past. It's just a very common theme in the history of man. Not anything particularly spectacular to observe just on a fansite message board. Skrit happens. We shrug and move on.Ali Hadrix said:
That all said. I kinda suppose you mean something that will make the 'future' better in regards to PvP. Which sounds fine. Go for it. Nothing is ever written in stone around here for very long. Especially when it comes to IC shenanigans and the PewPewPew.
Aela Talith
The Righteous
I love PVP the way it is.
Ali Hadrix
Bad Boss
That's actually the trick. To combine the two in such a manner that deciding success and failure in battle is akin to moving chess pieces, but the whole charade remains wrapped within the shroud of our personal creative flare through our writing.Darth Atrophia said:
It's a tricky balance, but there is one to be reached.
Camellia Swift
Camellia
[member="Darth Atrophia"]
Actually. . . .the Republic would never have been able to overpower that blockade. It was up to the Senate's political and economic influence.
From what we saw in the escape, the Trade Federation had at least two dozen Lucrehulks there at first, when the Queen and Jedi ship escaped and took damage.
The Republic well. . . . .the most they had at the time were Consular class cruisers and Vainglorious class. Neither of which were very large, sitting at 150 meters and 210 meters each.
Planetary Defense Forces had their own, but none were very impressive at the time, usually having around 10-20 ships at most. And again none reaching near the size of the 3,000 meter Lucrehulks.
The only ships constituting a Republic Navy near that time were the Katanna Fleet, and Tarkin's Paramilitary Force. The Katanna Fleet was sabotaged exactly so the Republic would require the Clone Army as part of Sidious Plan. And Tarkin's Paramilitary Force was wiped out during the Stark Hyperspace War just a short time before the Naboo Invasion.
While it has no bearing, people generally don't realize how screwed the Republic was during that time. They were banking on the Jedi keeping peace after they dismantled the military and chained the order after the Battle of Ruusan and the Army of Light was ended.
Actually. . . .the Republic would never have been able to overpower that blockade. It was up to the Senate's political and economic influence.
From what we saw in the escape, the Trade Federation had at least two dozen Lucrehulks there at first, when the Queen and Jedi ship escaped and took damage.
The Republic well. . . . .the most they had at the time were Consular class cruisers and Vainglorious class. Neither of which were very large, sitting at 150 meters and 210 meters each.
Planetary Defense Forces had their own, but none were very impressive at the time, usually having around 10-20 ships at most. And again none reaching near the size of the 3,000 meter Lucrehulks.
The only ships constituting a Republic Navy near that time were the Katanna Fleet, and Tarkin's Paramilitary Force. The Katanna Fleet was sabotaged exactly so the Republic would require the Clone Army as part of Sidious Plan. And Tarkin's Paramilitary Force was wiped out during the Stark Hyperspace War just a short time before the Naboo Invasion.
While it has no bearing, people generally don't realize how screwed the Republic was during that time. They were banking on the Jedi keeping peace after they dismantled the military and chained the order after the Battle of Ruusan and the Army of Light was ended.
First things first, this post has nothing to do with Wayland or the RP event related to it. I'm speaking in general.
Considering all the arguments presented up to now, I think that the rule about not being able to control an invaded world more than 2 hexes away should be extended to not waging invasions there either for most cases. We can argue that the way it is written allows for the opposite, and I do not oppose that, as there are certain scenarios where you don't really want or need to control an enemy world (yet), but just want it destabilised. Enemy has an entire world focussed on war factories (like Balmorra in SW:TOR)? Take it out, start a revolution, plant a disease or bio-weapon... neither necessitates control and all have the potential to effectively cripple the world so as to prevent the enemy from making use of it.
A better question then, however, is if that can still be called an invasion. Spec-ops or the like would be more appropriate, and as I understand it, that falls under general RP, not invasion rules.
With how hyperspace travel works (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace), and the fact that without it, the same ship will have needed weeks (if not more) for a journey made in an instant, I think we can't really argue that any other method can be considered for an invasion, unless you're invading the neighbouring system. And then there's also the issue with the ships being visible to every scanner or eye within range when not in hyperspace, so invading anything but a border world without using hyperspace travel would require an infeasible amount of luck or incredible military superiority to even get anywhere else; especially since enemy ships can warp in with the use hyperspace in seconds after the invasion is detected.
Let's consider the fact that we're talking *invasions*; the meaning of the world is to conquer and then control the area. I don't think it possible to control a planet without a supply line (you've got a fleet and plenty of soldiers to feed, fuel and maintain, after all!), and that follows the same rule for hyperspace travel (which again, really has no alternative, unless you intend for your supplies to arrive weeks, months, or even years too late). Of course you can argue that this does not prevent one from making a stupid decision and ignoring the necessity for supply lines, but do we really have anyone capable of ordering an invasion who would feasibly do that?
So all in all, the way I see it, all the facts and logic point to invasions making more sense if they are limited by borders. And if the facts aren't enough or if you are one of those who dismiss sci-fi realism with "it's all fiction anyway," then just consider it good sport; isn't it more interesting if you invade the enemy by conquering world after world, either with a surgical blitz to the core, or by conquering border worlds and tightening the noose until finally you invade the capital? Doesn't it strain willing suspension of disbelief if the enemy just suddenly shows up at your doorstep, despite having established a web of contingencies on all worlds around it and the faction borders? Which gives a more rewarding feeling of satisfaction when you finally succeed? Which one will make a better story?
Considering all the arguments presented up to now, I think that the rule about not being able to control an invaded world more than 2 hexes away should be extended to not waging invasions there either for most cases. We can argue that the way it is written allows for the opposite, and I do not oppose that, as there are certain scenarios where you don't really want or need to control an enemy world (yet), but just want it destabilised. Enemy has an entire world focussed on war factories (like Balmorra in SW:TOR)? Take it out, start a revolution, plant a disease or bio-weapon... neither necessitates control and all have the potential to effectively cripple the world so as to prevent the enemy from making use of it.
A better question then, however, is if that can still be called an invasion. Spec-ops or the like would be more appropriate, and as I understand it, that falls under general RP, not invasion rules.
With how hyperspace travel works (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace), and the fact that without it, the same ship will have needed weeks (if not more) for a journey made in an instant, I think we can't really argue that any other method can be considered for an invasion, unless you're invading the neighbouring system. And then there's also the issue with the ships being visible to every scanner or eye within range when not in hyperspace, so invading anything but a border world without using hyperspace travel would require an infeasible amount of luck or incredible military superiority to even get anywhere else; especially since enemy ships can warp in with the use hyperspace in seconds after the invasion is detected.
Let's consider the fact that we're talking *invasions*; the meaning of the world is to conquer and then control the area. I don't think it possible to control a planet without a supply line (you've got a fleet and plenty of soldiers to feed, fuel and maintain, after all!), and that follows the same rule for hyperspace travel (which again, really has no alternative, unless you intend for your supplies to arrive weeks, months, or even years too late). Of course you can argue that this does not prevent one from making a stupid decision and ignoring the necessity for supply lines, but do we really have anyone capable of ordering an invasion who would feasibly do that?
So all in all, the way I see it, all the facts and logic point to invasions making more sense if they are limited by borders. And if the facts aren't enough or if you are one of those who dismiss sci-fi realism with "it's all fiction anyway," then just consider it good sport; isn't it more interesting if you invade the enemy by conquering world after world, either with a surgical blitz to the core, or by conquering border worlds and tightening the noose until finally you invade the capital? Doesn't it strain willing suspension of disbelief if the enemy just suddenly shows up at your doorstep, despite having established a web of contingencies on all worlds around it and the faction borders? Which gives a more rewarding feeling of satisfaction when you finally succeed? Which one will make a better story?
W A N D E R
Step one: Hyperspace travel to known vulnerability in security, which can be known through sabotage and infiltration/spying.Amelia Moonlight said:
Step two: Travel through vulnerability in real-space at sublight speeds.
Step three: Enter hyperspace travel again to a closer spot that is still not at or too close to the planet
Step four: Invade in realspace.
(See: Invasion of Prakith by the Galactic Republic).
Camellia Swift
Camellia
[member="Amelia Moonlight"]
Well said.
O_O
[member="Darth Atrophia"]
I wouldn't use the word literally so certainly.
there are maybe a dozen ways. Because as I and others have provided clear canon evidence, its hard to get around. The big point is that most people can't stop you from using the main hyperspace routes. Its just very unfeasible to block off every route with an Interdictor.
Plus I'm surprised that most people don't use the obvious answer.
The reason why these planets have adequate defenses against an invasion is because they do detect the incoming force. . . .
Because let's face it, it is somewhat convienent the Republic Admiral or the same Sith Lords appear on every planet just ready to defend it as if they all knew the attack was coming IC.
So why didn't use that defense instead of trying to fight canon backed statements of how hyerspace works. . .
Well said.
O_O
[member="Darth Atrophia"]
I wouldn't use the word literally so certainly.
there are maybe a dozen ways. Because as I and others have provided clear canon evidence, its hard to get around. The big point is that most people can't stop you from using the main hyperspace routes. Its just very unfeasible to block off every route with an Interdictor.
Plus I'm surprised that most people don't use the obvious answer.
The reason why these planets have adequate defenses against an invasion is because they do detect the incoming force. . . .
Because let's face it, it is somewhat convienent the Republic Admiral or the same Sith Lords appear on every planet just ready to defend it as if they all knew the attack was coming IC.
So why didn't use that defense instead of trying to fight canon backed statements of how hyerspace works. . .
W A N D E R
The actual invasion thread, which is what we're talking about, is the summary of the most important point in conquering not simply that planet or system but a direct route to that planet. You won't simply own a dot on the map, you will own a spaghetti string from A to B in which your supply route is then established.Amelia Moonlight said:
This is not real life, we aren't going to make people write out long and relatively useless threads about establishing those routes, because the invasion creates the assumption that those routes were established during the war that led to it - unless we're talking about a surprise attack, which is generally how invasions work.
I can provide 30 different canon ways via google searching that make it very clear that even supremely defended planets, such as Koros Major/Empress Teta, would not be able to suppress an invasion without pre-existing knowledge. You have a buffer zone? Great! Then make the agreement that fleeting is a major objective in the invasion in order to get to the ground.Camellia Swift said:
W A N D E R
Faction leadership quite literally have all the power in the world when the opposing sides can agree on something, which means if you want to create a buffer zone that keeps the invading group out until the invaders can either a) break through, or b ) sneak through, and the other faction agrees you get to do just that.
It just won't ever be enforced as a rule by the staff. Not because it isn't a nice idea, but because factions already have the right and authority to make it happen.
It just won't ever be enforced as a rule by the staff. Not because it isn't a nice idea, but because factions already have the right and authority to make it happen.
Laira Darkhold
Well-Known Member
Laira Darkhold
Well-Known Member
[member="Darth Atrophia"]
Its not located anywhere anymore.
Its not located anywhere anymore.