This right here, is a come to Jesus moment

[Garza]

Its time to talk.

There are some members of the SJO community who believe that we are not taking the right course of action with recent events. There are some who say we are taking the right path.

Right now, in this thread, Voice any and all opinions.

DO NOT be salty.
DO NOT bring up stuff that is off topic.
DO NOT argue with others. Everyone can state their opinion without someone shooting them down. HOWEVER you can mention you disagree with someone.
DO be civil with anyone who has an opinion

Converse.

 

[Sorel Crieff]

It is clear that many (if not most) consider me to be the cause of the recent course of action that is considered inappropriate/wrong/misguided.

For that reason, I shall resign my post as GM and FL.

The debate can happen and whatever direction wins out as the way forward for the majority, a new leader that can deliver on the desires of the majority can be elected.

For what it's worth, Sorel is, was and always will be a light-sider. A Jedi. She will never ally with dark-siders and cannot remain in an Order that does consider them allies. And given that appears to be the consensus view from the PMs I've received, I suspect Sorel will not remain in the Faction.

And to be clear, this would be an IC decision 100% and not reflect any OOC views.

 

[Thurion Heavenshield]

[member="Sorel Crieff"]

Nobody here wants to see you step down if it can be helped. We just want to be told the reasons why these recent decisions were made, without any consulting from your faction admins or the members in general.

To deny help when we need it most I feel is not a decision based on wisdom.

 

[Kurayami Bloodborn]

I have to agree with Thurion here. I haven't heard or seen anyone who feels that you stepping down is a needed or necessary course of action right now.

One thing that attracted me to the faction when I first joined was the fact that one didn't have to be strictly lightside, there was only a requirement that you do what you could to further the goals of the faction. In character Kurayami sees the Force not as sides but more as a myriad of facets. Light and Dark are simply determined by the intent of the action not the action itself.

 

[Matsu Ike]

[member="Sorel Crieff"] ehh don't be so hasty yet/ if you are gone I'll likely be right behind you because I agree with you more then others. Really will be terrible if you go, I mean faction productivity will drop nearly 60% alone. You are the most productive member of the faction. Reliable and Thurion chose you because you showed the values of the silver jedi order. Dedication to the lightside of the force, understanding and well you aren't just going to go darkside because it is cool or the in thing to do.

That being said, really jedi acting like jedi and choosing the path of not aligning with darksiders really shouldn't have to be debated. Save facing an all powerful force god that threatens all sides. darksiders generally can't be trusted, looks for ways to benefit themselves over others and work to spread the corruption that is the darkside. Not being indebted to them, not inviting them to have access to things for the jedi order comes off more academic then as some big shocker. When it came to the aid requests it was discussed, same as the terms to go through and look at it. A primeval dark jedi was also turned down and no one was complaining about them.

Really I can't and don't speak for people but having you around as GM and FL is a smarter idea, you have the more level head, don't get insulted or feel slighted ooc and turn it into ic actions. You are the more ideal choice.

 

[Eugen Aker]

[member="Sorel Crieff"]

First, I'd like to say that no one has even considered removing you from the FO position. It's safe to say that we have our differences about how the SJO should operate right now, but that alone is not grounds for your ejection. Outside of some admittedly puzzling decisions as of late, you have always been a great member. Despite some hiccups, I still believe in your capability to lead the faction, as long as you are willing to take feedback. You just started the job too, so I believe you're afforded some grace period to grow into it.

Okay, so the current invasion and the most recent raid on Voss have highlighted two major issues that continue to plague the SJO as a whole. The first issue is that that staff through several iterations is way too hands off, almost to the point of neglect. I think that has led to the staff becoming increasingly out of touch with its member base, and I can clearly see this in private conversations and discord chats with some admins. Like with the invasion. I don't think any of the regular members actually have a problem with working with Dark Jedi or any other kinds of alternative FU. The only people who seem to have a problem with it are a few staff members.

This leads to the next issue. I think we can honestly say that after about six months, the rebranding effort has been a failure. All we've seem to have done is increasingly alienate our friends/allies and even our fellow members. The appeal of the SSC/SJO was its diversity and inclusiveness in comparison to other Jedi Orders. Now we have adopted this poisonous hardline orthodox stance that is just offputting to more of our neutral members like me. In canon we were shown by the downfall of the original Jedi Order how taking this black and white attitude was ruinous, so it's just weird seeing us repeat their mistakes.

I personally interpreted the rebranding as the SJO getting off its keister and becoming more involved with other factions, and also helping other lightside factions and neutral factions we're allied with, like the Iron Empire. By building a rapport with other groups, it helps improve relations on a writer to writer basis. So even while we may hate each other's guts IC, OOC we can still be chill and work together to make an entertaining and collaborative experience, not the mess I've been seeing as of late. By helping the GA or ORC in their fights against First Order and the Sith, they may come to respect us and return the favor during our times of need. At the end of the day, it only helps the SJO becoming more active.

[member="Matsu Ike"] [member="Kurayami Bloodborn"] [member="Thurion Heavenshield"] [member="Xander Carrick"]

 

[Garza]

[member="Sorel Crieff"],

You just started in the job. You are staying as far as I am aware. People believe you to be a good candidate to lead the faction.

HOWEVER as you state, your character would never ally with a even remotely dark sided person. Which is fine, The thing is, most other people don't mind working with them. My question to you as a writer of your character, would Sorel be the kind of person to say, "I see the need for them, I'll let them work with the others, but if they come close to me, its off." Which is fine.

While any Jedi that is pure Black and White, it runs the idea of "Sith deal in absolutes" yet you as a Jedi shun anyone who is not Lightsided? Isn't that an absolute? I thought the Jedi were all about "If you are dark sided, we can redeem you." Then we can even set up a program for Dark Siders where in order to have a say in the government, they have to pass different steps.

This faction was built by the Heavenshields, Myself, Rasu, Connor, and many others who put time and effort to make it a place where anyone can voice their ideas. Right now? It doesn't seem that way. So the way we can fix this, is by talking it over as a faction.

Everyone makes mistakes, and we can all learn to overcome them. This thread is here, for anyone to voice any ideas to try and make it a better place for anyone who wants to RP with us. Its a place where we can communicate with one another.

I also bring this up because I, on my Main account Atheus, am a faction admin with the Iron Empire, and thus as allies, we want to help you, yet we get shut down when we are doing what we were asked to do just because we happen to use a few dark sided powers for a good reason.

Just as RL, Characters make mistakes to become Dark sided. Sometimes, their life is trash and they are forced into situations where they have nothing else to do. So maybe we can cut some people some slack and find a way to let people write stories with us.

[member="Arisa Yune"], [member="Matsu Ike"], [member="Thurion Heavenshield"], [member="Kurayami Bloodborn"],

 

[Coci Heavenshield]

Hello everyone!

A couple of things.

The SJO was formed as a (non government) lightside faction by myself and it grew rapidly and strong as this alone. Before the merge. When the merge came and we changed to the SSC, that worked fine for a while until the day came, not unlike this day, where the members voiced their concerns that the SSC did not have any direction under that new name. And so the admins of the day discussed this and decided to return to a lightside faction as most of the member were/are Jedi of the lightside. Of course not everyone liked the decision but you are never going to please everyone.

I don't see any reason why SJO has to compromise on Jedi principles at all, as a faction. However, when it comes to allies and friends from the outside that have RPed with SJO/SSC for a number of years there needs to be a level of accommodation for them.

We can do two things as I see it.

Be a pure lightside faction and only grant permission to allies that are of the light. However this would limited us to few if not zero allies.

Or

We can be a lightside faction that is accepting of our allies and their members and in so doing would have a wider base of allies and writers willing to come and help us in times of need.

Running a faction is hard. Especially one that has grown to this size that is the SJO and there are many voices and opinions that wish to be heard and many that their own views of what we should be. As admins you have to view your leadership OOCly, for the good of the faction or else this will falter.

Sorel no one wishes for you to step down at all, you have a good level head as a writer and intelligent with it which is a good part of the reason we all decided you the best for the position ICly and OOCly.

 

[Audren Sykes]

In the (now Legacy) EU, Luke Skywalker worked with Dark siders when it was needed, even full-fledged Sith in the (somewhat reviled) Abeloth branch. The Jedi Order of his time didn't include Dark Siders, but accepted their help at times. The Jedi never expected them to be fully honest, or their goals to fully coincide with the goals of the Order, or for them to put aside the goals for the common good, but for them to work together as long as it served the Dark Sider's end goals. Luke made use of them, even flat-out used them at times, just as they used him and the Jedi. Risky, but managed well it can work.

Take it as you will. It is less an opinion and more a recounting of some of the established lore.

 

[Vitha Na'iv]

Adding onto what [member="Audren Sykes"] said check out TCW. When needed or forced to Jedi worked with the Sith and dark siders. They always kept a close eye on them but just look at Obi-Wan and Ventress.

 

[Sorel Crieff]

I appreciate all of the comments.

Yoda once said:

“A Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.”

This whole debate (for this CHARACTER) is not about good or evil. Nor is it about who is right and who is wrong, as much of what is being discussed is opinion — and is therefore all valid.

For this character (for this is an IC situation for Sorel) it is about the light-side and the dark-side.

No more and no less. Read Sorel's back-story. Read her numerous threads. She cannot and will not ally with dark-siders. I suspect that makes her unfit to be GM and FL.

Nothing anyone has said or proposed seems to have answered that.

 

[Eugen Aker]

Yes, IC, I think we should limit membership to the Silver Order itself to Lightside or neutral members, but we should be more pragmatic in accepting help from various sources, as long as they abide by our rules, so we can avoid another Korriban situation. Independent FU outside the SJO should be able to live within our borders so long as they follow basic laws (e.g. don't steal, murder, etc.). If the staff has certain misgivings about anyone, then just vet them a bit.

 

[Eugen Aker]

[member="Sorel Crieff"]

o more and no less. Read Sorel's back-story. Read her numerous threads. She cannot and will not ally with dark-siders. I suspect that makes her unfit to be GM and FL. Nothing anyone has said or proposed seems to have answered that.

That looks to be an oversight on our part then. I didn't realize that, IC, Sorel was so inflexible. From our interactions, I always thought of Sorel, while basically an orthodox Jedi in her own behavior, was more accepting of alternative lifestyles of others. Again, I have to say that being a Dark Jedi is a far cry from being a full up Sith.

I think that this is a topic that needs to be addressed IC. Perhaps the Assembly thread would be the most appropriate to discuss it. Because outside of Sorel and maybe a few other characters, most folks within the SJO don't have a problem allying with Dark Siders and other questionable characters for the greater good. Virtue and purity are nice and fine until you're out of house and home. Sorel has to be more flexible to better react to situations as GM.

 

[Sorel Crieff]

[member="Sorel Crieff"]

Sorel has to be more flexible to better react to situations as GM.

I have to disagree. As I stated before, I think she is unsuitable as GM for a Faction that wants to ally with dark-siders. I will not change the character to suit what people want of her.

 

[Isamu Baelor]

[member="Sorel Crieff"]

If you weren't willing to put the faction first, why did you accept the nomination?

 

[Sorel Crieff]

[member="Elia Lucatiel"]

I expect you're confusing IC with OOC.

But regardless, I am putting the SJO first by stepping down. And the truth is, I misread who we were. I thought we were LS - and it's not as simple as that.

 

[Thurion Heavenshield]

[member="Sorel Crieff"]

I understand and fully respect your devotion to stay true to your character, but what I don't understand is this:

Why do you feel the need to limit the entire faction to only work with Jedi and other lightsiders? That Sorel herself won't deal with them isn't justification enough to deny all the rest of us from doing so.

Let's look at this from an IC point-of-view. What if Sorel found out Thurion or anyone else was working with Dark Jedi or non-Jedi? Would she arrest them? Imprison them?

If the answer is no, then why the hardline stance on darksiders?

As Faction Leader, you need to put the good of the faction first and foremost. Right now we're being invaded by the Sith, and rather than accept help when we need it the most you feel morally obligated to deny their help? The logic is utterly lost on me.

But it's not too late. Reverse your decision and allow our allies to help us, and we can put this mess behind us.

 

[Isamu Baelor]

[member="Sorel Crieff"]

Please.

Whether you like it or not, your IC decisions have far-reaching OOC consequences.

Right now, those consequences are members leaving, and treaties being broken.

As a Faction Owner, you do not get the luxury of saying "Here's what my character will do ICly, regardless of the OOC consequences."

What you have is a responsibility. A responsibility to the faction, and to its members.

You were elected, not to rule with an iron-fist, but to work with the community to mold the faction into something for everyone.

Right now, you are being stubborn. Frustratingly so. You are putting your character above the wants, and needs, of the faction. You are dismissing the concerns of everyone by stating "It's just what my character would do IC, deal with it."

So, again, I ask you: why did you even accept the nomination?

 

[Darth Metus]

Was it not a faction-wide decision not to accept members who are Dark Siders? Was it not a big deal that a large chunk of very capable writers were shown the door because of their alignment?

Y'all drew a line in the sand then. Stick to the line or you'll look very stupid in the end. Don't make decisions based on an invasion and lose who you've chosen to be.

*Deposits .02 credits*

 

[Eugen Aker]

[member="Sorel Crieff"] I don't think you should be forced to compromise your character IC just to advance Faction goals, so if she going to keep that black and white stance, then I feel that Sorel is unsuitable as Grand Master IC. It's not even your fault, she's just not ready for that position. Having to put up Sorel, who's really still a sheltered kid, just kind of speaks to the larger problem of the SJO having most of our more senior masters inactive or doing their own thing. Then they may have done a better job picking up on her true feelings about this matter.

However, on an OOC basis, I still think you're fine as FO.