Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

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Writer On Training Threads (and Why They Suck)

Despite the title of this post, this is not going to be about how we should all stop doing training threads. That would be silly. Instead, I’m going to look at why people tend to dislike training threads, and I’m also going to offer up some suggestions on how to make them better.

I realize that most people probably just develop their character’s powers on their own, by introducing them gradually over time in threads. I really, really dislike this approach, mostly because it feels almost like cheating, but also because I don’t feel confident about my character’s abilities if I can just yank something out of a hat to solve a situation. Ironically, having all the choices only makes the decision harder. Having someone teach your character will help to develop them, it opens the door to a very interesting type of relationship (that of a mentor and protege), and it can be fun, provided you do it right.

1. Group Training Threads

The main complaint I hear about training threads, especially group training threads, is that they’re boring. This is clearly evident by the rate at which threads of this type fizzle out as people lose interest and stop posting/forget they were even in the thread to begin with. They are seen as filler that a faction struggling to meet the minimum for an activity check might set up, but they’re actually useless in terms of storytelling. Your character will gain, what, one new power from being in this thread? Laaaame. It’s not worth the time and effort to write.

One of the reasons why group training threads seem so boring is because they tend to be very impersonal. You have one instructor teaching a whole bunch of students. It’s like sitting in a classroom, and we all know that school is boring. There’s a reason why in the prequels, the scenes we saw of Yoda teaching little twerps in the Temple didn’t focus on their training; it was about Obi-Wan trying to find Kamino or something. I haven’t watched Attack of the Clones in a long time. Anyway, compare that to the scenes with Yoda and Luke in Empire Strikes Back, where his training was the focus, it was just the two of them in a one-on-one setting, building on each other as characters. We learn stuff about Yoda and the Force, and we also learn stuff about Luke and how he thinks, his flaws, his fears.

You also shouldn’t focus only on the training. Ideally, you want to have the training be secondary to the story of your thread. For instance, let’s say the teacher and a group of students were on a ship that crashed on an uncivilized planet full of scary monsters and other dangers. Now they have to not only work together to survive, the instructor is also going to have to teach them skills to ensure their survival. Or maybe they’re on an assignment together with a specific goal—investigate these ruins and retrieve this artifact—and they are learning along the way in order to overcome traps and other obstacles. There are things you can do with group training threads to make them interesting, although as a general rule, a public thread is at risk of becoming chaotic as more and more people join in. You can do private faction threads, you know. Minimum of three writers required for it to qualify in an activity check...

2. Master and Apprentice

Due to the disparity between the amount of brand new apprentice PCs and the lack of master characters able (or willing) to teach them, your character will be lucky to find one. The NJO have actually built their narrative around the idea that there aren’t enough Jedi Masters to teach them, and so they’re a bunch of teenagers prematurely knighted and then shipped off to war.

As of now, I’ve only had the opportunity to write a true master/apprentice relationship only once, and that was with Starlin Rand, my Jedi Padawan. His master is Syd Celsius, a very interesting character with a unique skill set and way of doing things. All of our training threads together have been story-focused, whether they were on a simple mission to retrieve artifacts, cleanse some ruins, free captives, etc. The story would have twists and turns, such as when a former student of Syd’s turned out to be the main antagonist and captured Starlin, or Syd got possessed by the spirits of a coven of witches (a whole entire coven, my dude). Starlin and Syd established a rapport early on, learning more about each other as they went along, and their opinions and beliefs about each other, the Force, and what it means to be a Jedi evolved as their relationship developed, growing and changing and there’s just so much stuff going on in these threads, wow! And I’ve never been able to replicate their success!...

Anyway, I specifically want to draw attention to one of the techniques Syd (wonderful writer) used to keep things interesting. The two of them were trapped in a caved-in tunnel, the only way out involved passing through an area infested with very dangerous enemies, and Starlin was a brand new student with virtually no skills. They needed him to learn quickly, condensing months/years of training into just a few hours. So Syd took chalk and some torn up pieces of paper, wrote down different skills/abilities on each one, and was able to use the Force to imbue these pieces of paper with all of her knowledge of that particular power. She laid them all out before Starlin, and told him to pick five of them. He touched the paper, it crumbled to dust, and he absorbed the knowledge directly into his brain, sort of like how knowledge cartridges work. You might be thinking, “That sounds like cheating” but merely having the knowledge isn’t enough. He still has to practice it in order to be able to use it effectively. They did practice a little beforehand (conversing all the while about a variety of topics, with little character moments sprinkled in) but the bulk of the “practice” did come from them fighting their way out of that situation. The use of the strips of paper made it slightly more believable, and gave Starlin more of a fighting chance, while highlighting the severity of the threat they faced. This is the kind of creativity you should be going for in your training threads.

3. How to Write a Master

I mentioned previously that I feel like there aren’t enough Master PCs available to train. One of the reasons for this is because you have to gain a certain amount of clout before people will take you seriously. You’re projecting the kind of confidence that usually only comes with “age”—and by that I mean you have to have written your character for long enough that you know them like the back of your hand, and everything about them is second nature to you now. There is also an element of leadership, since their student(s) will look to them for guidance. It’s a much more demanding role to fulfill, let alone write, a person who can be all these things.

On the other hand, screw clout and screw having a reputation. If you have a character who has something to teach, get them in there and do it.

Well, now this slow Sunday is almost over, and I’ve apparently run out of things to say already. Uh… yeah. If you have anything to add, go ahead. I’m gonna go eat a snack.
 
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I thought Jedi could learn skills just the same from Holocrons, and just by touching things as well; but when you put it that way, it does sound silly. What would be the point of a Master, if a Jedi could teach themselves things.

I’d argue it depends on what is being taught, but it’s true. You can read tons of books about martial arts, for instance, but you still need somebody to spar with.
 
5e6b032099a7f7b0c6900e2eb91ca508806e7eeb.gif


That's a spicy hot take, who hurt you?

Edit - Sithposts aside, I feel that training threads are extremely beneficial overall. "Boring" or not, here's why -

1. Solo Training Threads:

I've found that writing a training session by my lonesome is very useful in discovering a character's voice. Whether it's a new character I'm attempting to wrap my head around, or an older character who I've lost touch with, the exercise gives me a chance to figure them out. Said threads can be used to explore the why behind choosing a power, growth path, etc. It's a great tool for fleshing out character motivations or getting yourself motivated to write them (again).

2. Off-Screen Training:

I've found that this is particularly helpful for characters who are highly involved in the development of others. Back when Chaos didn't have div templates, I used to run around with several IC students at a time. Due to this, I didn't have much gas to find a mentor for my Knight level character while also giving my students the attention they deserved. So, every thread that my character used a power/skill in was "training" off screen. The more Character A used telekinesis, for example, throughout his threads? The better he got at them.

This was extremely valuable for setting the power level of my character while freeing me up to situate them in their teacher role.

3. Group Training:

Group trainings are an excellent jumping off point - both for characters overall and for specific abilities. For example, a character that is newly recruited to an organization - or is newly introduced to the Force - would benefit immensely from a group training session. It's a solid ground zero for their development and they can embrace the struggle of their first steps. Or, perhaps a character has a lofty goal in mind. Taking Metus for example, I desired for him to be a Dread Master. So, hopping into a group training thread teaching alchemy was the best call.

Overall, training threads - and threads in general - are what you make of them. A thread can be boring to one writer, but exhilarating to the next.

It's on the writers themselves to make their stories interesting - to them.
 
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5e6b032099a7f7b0c6900e2eb91ca508806e7eeb.gif


That's a spicy hot take, who hurt you?

Edit - Sithposts aside, I feel that training threads are extremely beneficial overall. "Boring" or not, here's why -

1. Solo Training Threads:

I've found that writing a training session by my lonesome is very useful in discovering a character's voice. Whether it's a new character I'm attempting to wrap my head around, or an older character who I've lost touch with, the exercise gives me a chance to figure them out. Said threads can be used to explore the why behind choosing a power, growth path, etc. It's a great tool for fleshing out character motivations or getting yourself motivated to write them (again).

2. Off-Screen Training:

I've found that this is particularly helpful for characters who are highly involved in the development of others. Back when Chaos didn't have div templates, I used to run around with several IC students at a time. Due to this, I didn't have much gas to find a mentor for my Knight level character while also giving my students the attention they deserved. So, every thread that my character used a power/skill in was "training" off screen. The more Character A used telekinesis, for example, throughout his threads? The better he got at them.

This was extremely valuable for setting the power level of my character while freeing me up to situate them in their teacher role.

3. Group Training:

Group trainings are an excellent jumping off point - both for characters overall and for specific abilities. For example, a character that is newly recruited to an organization - or is newly introduced to the Force - would benefit immensely from a group training session. It's a solid ground zero for their development and they can embrace the struggle of their first steps. Or, perhaps a character has a lofty goal in mind. Taking Metus for example, I desired for him to be a Dread Master. So, hopping into a group training thread teaching alchemy was the best call.

Overall, training threads - and threads in general - are what you make of them. A thread can be boring to one writer, but exhilarating to the next.

It's on the writers themselves to make their stories interesting - to them.
I agree with this, but TBH; I realize I think my reason for not really being against training threads (At the very least solo-training threads) is because who really wants to wait weeks or months to further their character? I mean I'm all for grinding a character out I swear on everything, but at the same time if I'm waiting for like a week... A month... To get just a little bit more done on my character, then at that point yeah I feel like it might be better to crank out a series of training threads and hand-wave an ability. There's not much Masters as is, and the ones that there are obviously have IRL stuff going on.

The same way it wouldn't be couth for me to rush them into something isn't their problem, I don't think they should look down on you for just trying to get where they are... That's how I honestly feel about it. Nobody is going to be as proactive about what you gotta' do like you are.
 
Aayla Shan Aayla Shan

Firstly, I don't believe that we've met before - hi!

Secondly, when I was a young warthog, I encountered the same challenge you're speaking of. Life happened to the writer I chose to mentor Metus and it was taking a solid chunk of time to get training in my desired field(s). What I did to resolve this was solo* training threads and becoming a learner of many masters. Since time is fluid on Chaos? My advice would be to write with whomever you/your character thinks is "strong" and get that knowledge in. It's okay to pick up lessons from Person A, B, and C while being apprenticed to Person E.

My humble opinion ofc - best of luck to you in your Padawan writing! :D

Edit: Forgot the word solo.
 
Aayla Shan Aayla Shan

Firstly, I don't believe that we've met before - hi!

Secondly, when I was a young warthog, I encountered the same challenge you're speaking of. Life happened to the writer I chose to mentor Metus and it was taking a solid chunk of time to get training in my desired field(s). What I did to resolve this was solo* training threads and becoming a learner of many masters. Since time is fluid on Chaos? My advice would be to write with whomever you/your character thinks is "strong" and get that knowledge in. It's okay to pick up lessons from Person A, B, and C while being apprenticed to Person E.

My humble opinion ofc - best of luck to you in your Padawan writing! :D

Edit: Forgot the word solo.
nodnodbowbow Appreciated, I'll do my best! Nice to meet you as well.
 
There is a lot to unpack here, obviously, and not all of it has to do with training threads. I'm not sure the less than subtle slams toward "activity checks" are really necessary for a thread that seems to be trying to work through and revitalize a potentially neglected portion of character development.

I digress.

When to comes to this? Different strokes, different folks. I know that seems like an oversimplification but hear me out. For every person that has had threads of ALL types fail or die, there will be others who have had successful and rewarding interactions. (Ex. In contrast to your experience.... I've had very productive training threads and Master/Apprentice threads that have been very fulfilling. For the last three years, Srina has written with her Master faithfully, both in private threads and public to this day.)

What works for some may not work for others. Sometimes, threads die. Sometimes, threads are forgotten. And it's not just training threads. It's life creeping in or the next "Destiny DLC/Stellaris/Among Us/New Nerd Hotness" coming to claim our focus.

1.) Group Training Threads: I like 'em. But, they are what we make of them. They can be very useful in not only learning new skills but making connections with other writers that can be used to spark interest for threads down the line. It's a way for characters that may otherwise have passed each other like two ships in the night to find one small moment that could lead to you PM/DM someone you may otherwise not have spoken to. It's very similar in that way to social threads. Not always the way to go, not for everyone, but they do deserve their moment in the sun.

They are not a sign of a "dying" faction. The Sith Eternal, fairly new, and if I recall correctly they recently held one.

2.) Master & Apprentice: Glad to hear you had a solid Master. Props to them; fantastic. The disparity between "Master" and "Apprentice" will always be there one way or the other. The only way to fix that would be to insert some sort of "quota" or "requirement" in which we demand that members make the characters we want/need. Muse doesn't really work that way, it's absurd, and the only solution to that is diligence, patience with your fellow writers, and time.

3.) How to Write A Master: I'm not sure most of that is actually true. There used to be "Rank Restrictions" where you had to jump through hoops to become a Master/Knight but that was removed a few years back. IMO it was an improvement because it was a grind that more or less turned into the results of a weird popularity contest. This opened the door for anyone to write any level character. Write a solid history and rock out. You don't need "clout" to be an effective Master/Knight. It can be nice to work from the bottom to the top, I appreciate it, but it's your choice.

4.) Solo Threads: I like a good character growth post as much as the next person. Not my preference because I'm needy AF - But I do like to read them and I do believe people can find development in them.

A lot of this just involves patience and time with the pre-acknowledged expectation that things may go topsy-turvy. Sometimes, it can feel impossible. Like waiting for a square to line up to the circle--But it really isn't.

So...What to do?

Be the change you want to see. Why not open a LFG, Faction, or Discord dedicated to pairing dedicated Masters and Students? It's not a perfect idea but it's definitely a place to start. Cheers, and good luck my friend. I hope everything works out well for you!
 
There is a lot to unpack here, obviously, and not all of it has to do with training threads. I'm not sure the less than subtle slams toward "activity checks" are really necessary for a thread that seems to be trying to work through and revitalize a potentially neglected portion of character development.

I digress.

When to comes to this? Different strokes, different folks. I know that seems like an oversimplification but hear me out. For every person that has had threads of ALL types fail or die, there will be others who have had successful and rewarding interactions. (Ex. In contrast to your experience.... I've had very productive training threads and Master/Apprentice threads that have been very fulfilling. For the last three years, Srina has written with her Master faithfully, both in private threads and public to this day.)

What works for some may not work for others. Sometimes, threads die. Sometimes, threads are forgotten. And it's not just training threads. It's life creeping in or the next "Destiny DLC/Stellaris/Among Us/New Nerd Hotness" coming to claim our focus.

1.) Group Training Threads: I like 'em. But, they are what we make of them. They can be very useful in not only learning new skills but making connections with other writers that can be used to spark interest for threads down the line. It's a way for characters that may otherwise have passed each other like two ships in the night to find one small moment that could lead to you PM/DM someone you may otherwise not have spoken to. It's very similar in that way to social threads. Not always the way to go, not for everyone, but they do deserve their moment in the sun.

They are not a sign of a "dying" faction. The Sith Eternal, fairly new, and if I recall correctly they recently held one.

2.) Master & Apprentice: Glad to hear you had a solid Master. Props to them; fantastic. The disparity between "Master" and "Apprentice" will always be there one way or the other. The only way to fix that would be to insert some sort of "quota" or "requirement" in which we demand that members make the characters we want/need. Muse doesn't really work that way, it's absurd, and the only solution to that is diligence, patience with your fellow writers, and time.

3.) How to Write A Master: I'm not sure most of that is actually true. There used to be "Rank Restrictions" where you had to jump through hoops to become a Master/Knight but that was removed a few years back. IMO it was an improvement because it was a grind that more or less turned into the results of a weird popularity contest. This opened the door for anyone to write any level character. Write a solid history and rock out. You don't need "clout" to be an effective Master/Knight. It can be nice to work from the bottom to the top, I appreciate it, but it's your choice.

4.) Solo Threads: I like a good character growth post as much as the next person. Not my preference because I'm needy AF - But I do like to read them and I do believe people can find development in them.

A lot of this just involves patience and time with the pre-acknowledged expectation that things may go topsy-turvy. Sometimes, it can feel impossible. Like waiting for a square to line up to the circle--But it really isn't

So...What to do?

Be the change you want to see. Why not open a LFG, Faction, or Discord dedicated to pairing dedicated Masters and Students? It's not a perfect idea but it's definitely a place to start. Cheers, and good luck my friend. I hope everything works out well for you!
Breaker of Ch-.. I mean, I appreciate this insight! (That Playby tho'). I think I will be taking a lot of this advice to heart within the coming days! You guys are enlightening.
 
They can be fun, however lots of group training threads are done on quite a thin concept and the trainer doesn't follow through. Probably 75% of group training threads go:
  1. Mentor gives opening post
  2. Everyone introduces character
  3. Mentor gives everyone one simple task to start
  4. People sporadically reply
  5. Mentor bails
  6. Thread ends before 20 posts
As others have said, they frequently give factions a view on who is new and interested to get them engaged in threads with actual story content.
 
That's a spicy hot take, who hurt you?
There is a lot to unpack here, obviously, and not all of it has to do with training threads. I'm not sure the less than subtle slams toward "activity checks" are really necessary for a thread that seems to be trying to work through and revitalize a potentially neglected portion of character development.
Alright, so, I assume the ruffled feathers (if they are indeed ruffled? I'm not that familiar with either of you, hi! Nice to meet you!) are because of the title of this thread, which I admit is a bit clickbait-y. But as I stated at the beginning of my post, I don't hate training threads or think they should be done away with, quite the opposite in fact. It is not a "Sithpost" or a "slam" so much as it is a... advice column/opinion piece? Kind of? My intention was to clarify what I believed was the issue, offer suggestions on how to fix it, and inspire further discussion on the topic, which both of you have contributed to. Thank you.

I was prompted to write this based on my own experiences as a member of faction staff in SJC (I was surprised to learn that ordinary members could contribute to the faction in that way even by writing private threads, and yes, training threads seem to be a commonality among factions that are either just starting out or struggling to make end's meet. That's not really a dig at these factions, it's just what I've seen), and a regular writer in SE. I have also conversed with various people over time who have expressed similar views - training threads are boring, tedious, pointless, factions shouldn't do them, et cetera and so forth. I don't agree that training threads are any of these things by default, but I understand where they are coming from because I've written in dozens of these threads, always hoping to progress my character, only to often be disappointed by the experience.

They can be fun, however lots of group training threads are done on quite a thin concept and the trainer doesn't follow through. Probably 75% of group training threads go:
  1. Mentor gives opening post
  2. Everyone introduces character
  3. Mentor gives everyone one simple task to start
  4. People sporadically reply
  5. Mentor bails
  6. Thread ends before 20 posts
This is also very true, I wish I had written it. I sort of touched on it when I talked about how group threads tend to fizzle out; this is often one of the reasons why that happens, and why they have a reputation for being slow and boring.

I realize I think my reason for not really being against training threads (At the very least solo-training threads) is because who really wants to wait weeks or months to further their character? I mean I'm all for grinding a character out I swear on everything, but at the same time if I'm waiting for like a week... A month... To get just a little bit more done on my character, then at that point yeah I feel like it might be better to crank out a series of training threads and hand-wave an ability. There's not much Masters as is, and the ones that there are obviously have IRL stuff going on.
Yep. In this case, I would recommend hand-waving, especially if you intended to have your character learn it anyway and just couldn't get the thread done.

Anyway, I didn't even really address solo training threads except to joke about Deadcurze, who hates solo threads in general because he's weird and Scandinavian and considers himself "a mediocre writer" with not much interest in improving his craft. (Again, this is not a dig, that is literally what he has said, lol.) I've done a few solo threads myself, they can be very fun and rewarding, not to mention they take the pressure off and let you just free write to your heart's content. My one question is, what would actually be the content of a solo training thread? Would your character be interacting with an NPC master? A training droid? A holocron's gatekeeper? In that case, you're fine! If you want to develop them that way, I can see how it would work.

I really only take issue with the idea of spontaneously introducing a new power in the middle of a dom or invasion, especially if it's something relatively advanced. That does feel a bit unearned for me - although I have actually used it recently. My character was ordered to sneak into a compound, but had never been taught any stealth-oriented abilities. She went ahead and tried Force Cloak, but as it was her first attempt without any training or practice, it was imperfect and she wound up getting caught.

Conclusion: looking back, I probably should have left this one on the backburner for longer, made it a bit clearer and more focused before I posted it, but it seemed so quick and to-the-point (to me, at least) I decided to just go for it. I hope I have clarified myself a bit here.
 
Hey there. No ruffled feathers, friend. Though you might want to think about how "On Training Threads (and Why They Suck)" as a title reads pretty poorly while also bringing up how they are a sign that Major Factions are "Too New" or "Dying" rather than offering a potential source of IC and OOC bonding, entertainment, and character development. This is true, especially, coming from a member of current or former Faction Staff.

Threads of all shapes and sizes are simply what we make of them. What we gain or lose, the full take away, is a two-way street. Training threads are no different than any other thread that require give and take on both sides. I stand by my initial assessments.

1.) That's a lot to unpack.​
2.) If the goal was to provide insight/improvement - The nods about training threads only existing to bolster activity checks should have been left to the wayside.​
3.) If they are as you say "training threads are boring, tedious, pointless, factions shouldn't do them, et cetera and so forth" there is no shame in opting out. It's perfectly okay if something isn't for you. There are a dozen other thread types to choose from that might offer you the chance for development that might hold more lasting traction.​
4.) If the goal is to try and fix it, again: Be the change you want to see. Why not open a LFG, Faction, or Discord dedicated to pairing dedicated Masters and Students? It's not a perfect idea but it's definitely a place to start.

Anyway, I didn't even really address solo training threads except to joke about Deadcurze, who hates solo threads in general because he's weird and Scandinavian and considers himself "a mediocre writer" with not much interest in improving his craft. (Again, this is not a dig, that is literally what he has said, lol.)

Whether he made the joke about it himself or not it's really not something that contributes in any meaningful way to rectifying the issues that have been presented. In essence, I'll leave it at that. Be the change you want to see.
 
Both arguments for/against (suck/not suck?) are technically correct since it really, really boils down to personal experience so discussions over training threads, or any other type of a thread for that thread, lead to a conundrum.

While I have rarely found training threads appealing - Jend-Ro's pilgrimage threads are a notable exception - in the end this is just a type of thread with a very broad framework to work with; meaning that in essence its content/story is what makes it appealing or not. And appeal, too, is subjective.

As long as they are not mandated/enforced as a way to gain a particular skill/ability, like dev threads used to be, there's nothing to be fixed because by God I'm pretty sure I can forge a fully operational beskar armor in my living room at this point.
 

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