Suggestion Major Faction Flagships

[Kainan Wolfe]

Wanted to bring up the topic of Super Star Destroyers, as well as recent factory changes concerning what can be fielded by factions. (Special thanks to Vyra Silara for her insights and suggestions)

As it currently stands, SSD's can only be acquired by starting and completing three dominions in a month. Which is fine in theory, however in practice, this leads to a situation where almost all of the SSDs will be owned by one or two factions, while almost all other factions don't have a single one. This has led to a situation where to date, at least as far as I know, we haven't had a proper SSD vs SSD battle at all, unless you count Endgame: Coruscant, which was scripted and not actual PvP. In fact, SSDs don't get used much, at all, as the factions who do have them, don't usually field them out of courtesy for those who don't.

This system kind of worked for a while, as SSDs were more of a prestige item than anything else, however, now that minor factions have gained access to 5km Battlecruisers, there is very little distinguishing what minor and major factions can field, except for quantity (minors can only have a single 5km flagship, while majors can field multiple of them). This can disincentivise minor factions from trying to go major, because why would they, since they can run skirmishes and they can already participate in the map game as allies in invasions, or by launching rebellions, which would only increase the stagnation of the map game, as fewer minor factions would be interested in trying to go major. With the ship sizes for minor factions being increased, I believe major factions should get something new as well, in order to give factions another reason to try to go major and spice up the map game a little.

What I propose is this: give each major faction a single SSD as a faction flagship, upon going major. This gives additional incentive to minor factions to try and go major by giving them cool new things to play with and it would also lead to SSDs being fielded more often. The current SSD rules would remain in place, meaning that if it gets destroyed, its gone, it must be unique and any additional SSDs would still have to be acquired through the three dominions/month process, which still gives a significant reward to the biggest and most active factions, while also encouraging everyone to use them more often.

What do you guys think?

 

[Hailyn]

I'd like to see more major factions with their own super star destroyers, too, but I don't know about giving it to them when they go major. Maybe after completing X dominions total (cumulatively) they get their first one regardless of whether they've done 3 in a row or not, which would probably push for a more healthy faction than a lot of potential flash in the pan attempts at subbing a flagship only to fade out in two months.

So, idk, maybe do 5 dominions total or something to that effect and get your first super star destroyer regardless?

 

[Judah Lesan]

It’s all a matter of getting your faction to post. At the rate you’re gaining members, provided they post to the doms, and eyeing your current pace, your faction has the ability to do 3 in a month.

Besides with the flashpoint coming up... pretty sure you’ll especially be able to knock out 3 in a month

Kainan Wolfe

 

[Darth Athora]

3 doms a month ain't hard. Especially if you dont rush into going major immediately upon getting the required number and actually build up your minor faction before going major.

Not a fan of the instant SSD upon going major mostly cause of my previous statement. There's been plenty of major factions in the past who go major, maybe get a couple doms done, then go ghost cause they rushed into going major without realizing the responsibility of being major. THen we just get a bunch of SSDs that are gone with the wind cause, if i remember the rules right but i prob dont, once you go minor that SSD goes bye bye.

Also, idk about anyone else, but I use my SSD religiously.

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

Hailyn I can see your point, there, however in my opinion, there currently is very little incentive for a minor faction to try and go major, since they can mostly field the same ships and there is also the matter of SSDs not being used much.

Judah Lesan I know and we were talking about it in our faction server. We probably already could push for one, at our current level of activity, however that's not what this is about. The issue here is that minors have consistently been getting buffed, to the point where they can now field the same ship sizes that majors can field, the only difference being in quantity. I believe this removes an incentive for minors to try and go major, which would only further stagnate the map game (there hasn't been a new major faction that lasted more than a few months in almost two years).

Also, to date we haven't had a single SSD vs SSD battle, at least as far as I know, because the people who have them aren't using them much, out of courtesy for factions who don't. My proposal is to simply give major factions a buff, since minor factions have already gotten one and have been getting buffs for a while, now (last factory update also increased ship sizes for minor factions), while majors haven't gotten anything new since SSDs were first introduced.

In the past, a big incentive for people to join major factions, or for minor factions to try and go major, were the increased ship sizes. Now, that incentive has effectively been removed, which will only hurt most major factions by taking away one of the big reasons some people had for joining major factions and this would only further stagnate the map game, which is pretty stagnant as it is, at least in my opinion. I do believe we need more new major factions and more map tension (invasions, etc). Taking away incentives to participate, would only do the opposite.

EDIT: Darth Athora I was typing this before I read your post, but the above applies to your argument as well. Yes, three dominions/month isn't that hard to do, but as it currently stands, the map hasn't changed much in two years, aside from a couple factions dying here and there. With the new changes in what minor factions can field, a big incentive has been removed for people to join a major faction and participate in the big PvP arena, which will only make recruitment all the more harder, making it even more difficult for factions which desire to go major to actually build up a stable member base, while also making it harder for established major factions to maintain theirs. There is also the fact that to date, we haven't had an actual SSD battle.

 

[Fiolette Fortan]

I feel like the new Flashpoint is literally about to solve that problem. At any rate, SSDs being used or not isn't a reason to just give them out. It's still up to the major faction how they want to use their SSD. If we have to give more incentive for people to participate in major factions then we're not doing major factions properly. The SSD is just a bonus, the dominions give you a hex on the map. Doing three a month and getting an SSD isn't an issue, nor is it an issue if people decide not to use them. Again, all the complaints about a stagnate map game are literally about to be solved with the Flashpoint.

Not in favor of giving them out just for going major.

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

Fiolette Raaf The thing is, like I said, minor factions have been consistently getting buffed for a while, now, to the point where there is less and less distinction between minors and majors, except in quantity of what they can field. With minor factions now able to field the same things as major factions, that has taken away a reason some people had for getting involved with major factions.

As for how a major faction handles its SSDs, that is the responsibility of each major faction's admin team, just like handling their dominions and maintaining an active faction is. And giving each major faction one flagship, won't take away the bonus that the bigger factions are getting, since getting any additional SSDs would still require the three-dominions-in-a-month process and if that flagship is destroyed, its gone forever, same as any other SSD.

 

[Darth Athora]

Kainan Wolfe

If people join major factions for bigger ships, then they are missing the point of major factions.

And, honestly, I hope there's more active minor factions. Gives me more stuff to do outside of the major faction grinds. I've grown tired of joining interesting minor factions who's only goal is to go major.

Also, as far as I know in regards to the TSE, quite of few of the SSD owners have reduced their presence on the site to very minimal levels or have just outright left the board, hence why you dont see SSD vs SSD battles. For me, personally, I've been busy dealing with fighting terries IRL to think about pvp things on here, however, now that I'm home that will change very quickly.

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

Darth Athora People join major factions for a variety of reasons. Taking away some of them, doesn't make things better. The map game is a central element of Chaos, if not the biggest one. Its one of those things that makes Chaos stand apart from other sites, the ability to influence the story and politics of the space its taking place in (in this case, the Star Wars galaxy). I agree with the recent changes made to the factory and codex, however I believe that major factions should get something as well, considering that minor factions have been buffed consistently during the last couple of years, while the map game hasn't had any significant upheavals since Endgame and invasions are becoming more and more skirmish-y (I haven't seen an invasion set in more than one city since TSE destroyed the Dominion at Krayiss II).

 

[Fiolette Fortan]

Major factions get to influence the map and overall galaxy politics. It's usually incentive enough, and if not then again not doing major factions properly. All I'm hearing from you which let me see if I get this right, the SSD isn't the thing you just want to give major factions more toys basically. Because honestly, they don't need more toys or anything else because that's not going to solve the problem of being a major faction. If you want more SSD on SSD action then be the change you want to see. Communicate with other major factions, start working on stories together, then when you get your SSD then you can play tag team with your SSD and theirs.

Also, I agree with everything that Darth Athora has said.

 

[LT-137]

I don't think giving new Major Faction's ability to generate a Super Star Destroyer from the get-go will allay your concerns with how space battles are written on Chaos, as it's likely to cause the exact opposite to happen instead. It's more likely that this new Major would safeguard their new "baby" and not throw it into any situation where it'd be destroyed, or damaged in any shape or form.

There are exceptions to this observation, but it's just something I've noticed over my time here and involvement with a majority of the Major Factions currently and formerly on the board.

The problem isn't with the system, as those that want these technological terrors should work for them. The issue is with those that use the system and decide to abstain from using their faction's well-earned toys.

There's already plenty that distinguishes a major faction and a minor one, and I don't think there's a need for a "tit for tat" scenario in this case. It's not only a quantity factor, but it's capabilities as well. Skirmishes are all well and good, but they have no lasting impact on a Major Faction unless that specified group "canonizes" that thread. Skirmishes can be ignored, and a Major Faction could sweep them under the rug if they so wished.

I'd go on about Rebellions, Allies and everything else that separates Majors and Minors, but those discussion points are arbitrary in regards to this suggestion. This alleged stagnation on the map game has nothing to do with Super Star Destroyers either, and is an entirely different issue regarding Factions and their Administrative teams ascribing to the perceived "norm" - or fearing the supposed salt that comes from a lack of civil communication.

So, I'm going to firmly seat myself on the "No" side of the fence for this one. Besides, it's my personal opinion that having a handful of battlecruisers is a more viably sound option, rather than pouring everything into a single ship that could be taken out by a spinning starfighter to the command deck. lol

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

Fiolette Raaf Yes, I do want to give major factions more toys. I believe everyone should be getting more toys. So far, the trend of consistently lifting restrictions has proven to be beneficial to the site.

EDIT: In regards to your points about communicating and setting things up properly with other factions, we're already doing that, but going into detail about that here, would be off-topic.

LT-137 Everything you said about a big ship getting taken out by a tumbling starfighter is true. A small pack of battlecruisers is certainly more effective than a single supercapital, as seen in the trend for IRL navies to consistently downscale their ships. But this is Star Wars. Plucky starfighter pilots taking out big technological terrors, hardy rebels fighting against the big, evil empire, space wizards dueling eachother with laser swords and massive and impractical starships duking it out with laser guns in a completely unrealistic fashion, is par for the course and these are some of the things that make this universe fun and special. A little lack of realism and efficiency here and there, does not detract from the quality or entertainment value of a story, in fact it does quite the opposite.

 

[Fiolette Fortan]

So then your thread isn't about the 'map's stagnation' because your SSD at the start suggestion doesn't exactly solve that problem. Your thread and your goal/points are to give major factions more toys. When they have plenty as LT-137 to distinguish them from minor factions. Right now the factory and the codex give you and yours plenty to do and to make to keep things entertaining and fun. If not then that's something you need to address with your staff.

Again, be the change you want to see, use your toys in threads, etc.

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

Fiolette Raaf My thread is about map stagnation, only there isn't much more to be said about the administrative side of things, except for adding new toys to spice things up and generate hype. Giving major factions SSD flagships is basically advertisement, from a marketing standpoint, which is how I'm looking at things. Other aspects of the problem are already being addressed with the new flashpoints and on a faction side, by major factions communicating and cooperating more, which is already starting to happen all across the board.

 

[LT-137]

New toys don't really spice up a dead-end way of thinking. Super Star Destroyers aren't the advertisements you believe them to be, as they're simply added to a list after they're approved and become another number scratched into a Major faction's belt.

Faction adverts - both here on the website and on the discord server - are your friends in terms of getting your faction's name out there, as is "word of mouth" and reputation amongst your collective peers. If you need a factory submission to "advertise" your faction... then I don't know what to say. lol

 

[Malok]

Context: Only read the OP

I don't agree that major factions should be given an SSD right out the gate. Reasons being:

1. Dominion requirements have continually become more lax as time went on. Once, to obtain a single hex, 150 posts were required. As of now, roughly 150 posts are required to complete three Dominions under the current ruleset. Essentially, a faction can now get three hexes for the same effort as obtaining one in a previous ruleset.

2. Obtaining SSDs used to require 400 posts and were out of reach for nearly every major faction on the board. To date, since the rules have been updated, most major factions have obtained an SSD. OPA, TSE, CIS, and SJO off the top of my head. Each of these factions have varying levels of activity throughout the years, but each has managed to complete 150 posts in a single month.

3. Reaching the point where your faction can post 150 times in a single month is a milestone that deserves to be rewarded (in my opinion). It gives factions, especially newer ones, something to build and to strive towards as they grow. Frankly, the SSD drive was a major carrot on a stick for the CIS since the rule change and it shows.​

I don't think major factions should be handed an SSD right out the gate when it is easier now to complete dominions and to obtain one that ever before. Beyond that, flash in the pan factions are a reality. Some factions make it, some don't. The SSD reward is an achievement that factions that do make it can easily accomplish.

 

[The Red of Sinner]

Hmm....I've only a few things to say about all. I see both points from both parties here....but...I digress...I see no reason to argue against wanting something new to happen with Major Factions, cause for the most part... he's not wrong. There's no real reason to major when minors can effect the map game just much.

Example: Agents of Chaos and their idea of doing rebellions and removing major faction influence clouds. Which, by the way, is an awesome idea.

So to state that Major factions get politics and what not is a bit off considering rebellions now exist.

But....a SSD doesn't really interest me. I'd not go against having one by no means but.... it's not a reason for me and mine to go major.

 

[Hailyn]

cause for the most part... he's not wrong. There's no real reason to major when minors can effect the map game just much.

Hailyn I can see your point, there, however in my opinion, there currently is very little incentive for a minor faction to try and go major, since they can mostly field the same ships,

I can agree with giving a major faction an easier avenue at obtaining their first flagship, but I completely disagree with your entire premise that Minor Factions have access to nearly the tools of a major faction. If your only incentive to go major is to be able to have bigger ships, or have more of them, then you get access to both by going major that you are flatly denied having access to as minor faction. The rules prohibit minor factions from role-playing large fleets/armies/etc, major factions are free from this. (And I don't mean the "within reason" limitation, I mean the very cut and dry rule directly below that chart).

Staying major for however long 5 dominions would take could be anywhere from three months (assuming they don't do 3 in a single month, for the purpose of this suggestion) to five months time. We already reward a major faction for being able to drum up activity for short bursts of posts to finish dominions up consecutively over the course of a month, this would be a way to reward other factions that aren't able to muster up that kind of approach to dominions and rewarding them for proving they have staying power and aren't a flash in the pan faction.

The perks of being a major faction that come after already being major are more an incentive for staying around, not for reaching it. It's easy to get accepted, it's much harder to last the year. Think of how you can reward the factions that do last, that can't put in the burn-out-inducing dominions 3 times a month in record time, rather than something that doesn't encourage a major faction to do anything except apply.

Edit: Or just burn the tie to dominions entirely, if a faction can last 3 months and aren't recalled by the end of that time frame they get a shot at making their SSD. Simple, no comparisons to dev threads, and everyone eventually gets what they want as long as they prove they can survive.

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

Malok Hailyn The Red of Sinner K Kaine Australis

I can see your point, here. The issue I'm trying to address, is spicing up major factions a little. Consistently over the past few updates, minor factions are being incentivized more and more, to the point where the lines between what a major and minor faction can do, are very blurred. As it stands right now, the only functional thing major factions can do, that minors can't, is claim hexes on the map. Minor factions can affect the map game, too, they can get the same resources, albeit both of those things in a more limited capacity, while also risking absolutely nothing on their part. A minor faction can launch rebellions against a major faction, but can't be retaliated against in any signifficant way. It can now also field the same classes of ships, even though in more limited numbers.

Major factions will now have to contend with decreased incentive for people to join them, while also dealing with a flurry of new minors who can constantly nip at their borders without them being able to do anything proactive about it, other than selecting some very limiting mandates which would also take away the one thing a major faction can do, that minors can't: expand its territory (unless that mandate was done away with and I'm unaware).

If not through flagships, then at least something else should be added to differentiate majors from minors more, one or two extra, functional perks. The current balance favors minor factions, to the detriment of majors. Its a situation that should be addressed and a simple way to do it, would be to bring in a few extra toys. A better, though much more difficult way to do it, would be for the community to address this issue, ourselves, through increased cooperation and maybe even a few community-led events, down the line (Endgame and the TSE-ORC event would be a good example).

 

[Kainan Wolfe]

K Kaine Australis This is something that I disagree with, but this is not relevant to the topic at hand.