Discussion Jedi Forgiveness in StarWars

[Jsc]

I recently read a thread where in a Jedi redeems a Sith. It was pretty good.

During this thread the Jedi also forgives the Sith his crimes against others, including mulitple murders. Then the Jedi recruits the now, not-Sith, as a Jedi Padawan. And this made me somewhat uncomfortable. So I wanted to talk about it a bit.

Hi. My name is Jay and I primarily write characters struggling to be a good Jedi. So this isn't the first time I've seen this scenario in StarWars. However, not always is the Sith forgiven for their crimes. Sometimes the bad guy actually has to go directly to jail or stand trial. And very rarely is a mass murderer so easily considered a good candidate for the Jedi Order either.

So my question to the community today is one regarding forgiveness. Especially pertaining to how much a Jedi Knight can, or should, forgive.

Naturally I understand there is some nuance at play here. Not all Jedi serve a government or are sworn to defend written laws or kingdoms. Nor do all Sith engage singularly in mass murder and public genocide simply by wearing the name tag. Good and bad can often be a matter of perspective. And just because one government says you're a bad person and guilty of a few parking violations doesn't immediately mean the StarWars genre as a whole should treat you that way, in every situation. However, nuances and grey areas included. I still think the topic of forgiveness merits some commentaries.

So. To begin. I'd like to ask the community a few questions.

Q: Are there any crimes or offenses that a Jedi can or should never ever forgive?​

Q: Likewise, (or, depending on interpretation,) are there any crimes or offenses that The Force itself can or should never ever forgive?​

Q: Why?​

 

[Caltin Vanagor]

1. I don't think that there are. If a Jedi can find, even if in the middle of a murder, that it was more of a "terrible act" and not in the true nature, that the Jedi would probably still try to redeem them. After all, Luke did with Vader,
2. Whether the Force could forgive? Maybe disconnecting yourself from it?

 

[Okkeus Dainlei]

First off, I very much like this post. It covers some internal challenges that a Jedi might face.

1. This comes from how much bound to the rules a Jedi are. If they are strict, run of the mill Jedi, then probably not. They follow the code and only the code, so they could never forgive the Sith. Then there are people like Leia or Luke. They both had relatives who turned to the dark side and killed innocent people. Yet, they still forgave them, because it is the right thing to do.

2. A very difficult question. I’m going to take a piece of my religion here to relate to this question, so if this makes anyone uncomfortable, please skip this section.

The force can be looked at like this: Jedi = Heaven, Grey = Atheists, Sith = Hell. Kylo for example was a Jedi who turned to the Sith, so now he was commuted a sin, or “sold his soul to the devil.” But through forgiveness through Han and Leia, who I believe are represented as Angels after their deaths, he is forgive and comes back to the light side of the force.

Now when you get into people like Palpatine, he was full on supportive of the devil and the dark side. As shown in episode 9, he is sort of the “leader” of the dark side, represented as the Devil himself, with his followers. At that point, there is almost no way to be forgiven by the force. He is truly dammed.

3. It all depends on how you look at it. If you want to forgive the Sith, then go ahead, forgive the Sith. But if you want to look at it in a much deeper way, then you can like I did above. All is up to you.

 

[Jacen Nimdok]

This is something that I've always had at the back of my mind. The redemption arc that started it all and seems to be the prototype for all SW redemption arcs to follow, that of Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi, still ended with him dying immediately after he was redeemed. Given what we know about Vader and his actions (torturing, maiming, and killing a whole lotta people both directly and indirectly, including children) it would be in poor taste to let him live. There's probably a specific term for it when it comes to fiction, but I know that in a lot of Western literature if a character betrays the hero(es) and then seeks to redeem themselves, they usually die shortly afterwards. We still need that apotheosis of seeing some kind of justice served.

The same thing came up back in the day when I was really into true crime - the idea that someone who had committed horrible crimes (the kind they never let you out of prison for) could find some form of redemption while incarcerated for the rest of their natural lives, the ethics of the death penalty, how much "community service" actually means, that sort of thing. I found that a lot of people are actually pretty uncomfortable with these things once they see the reality of it (especially where mental illness is involved and the criminal's ability to judge right from wrong or even control their own actions is called into question), or are faced with the debate over what constitutes justice vs. revenge. Of course that's real life and this is fiction we're talking about, but one imitates the other.

Anyway, to actually answer your questions:

1. I would say there is no limit to what a Jedi can forgive, although there are some circumstances where it would be highly unlikely, or at least extremely difficult, for any person to forgive certain truly vile crimes. I'm backing this up based on the case of Vader, but it should be noted that Luke, the Jedi doing the forgiving in this situation, was the offender's own son. Part of the scenario involved Luke seeing himself in Vader and being afraid to become like him. Vader's redemption was also a catharsis for Luke, as he was freed of his father's shadow.

2-3. I'm on the fence as far as SW goes, because it's a different universe. Similar to Okkeus Dainlei , my own personal beliefs include a limitless possibility for forgiveness from a higher power. I would say the Force is portrayed a bit more inconsistently at the fundamental level, to the point where not everyone agrees that the Force has a will to begin with. Thus I must conclude that, from a narrative standpoint, whether or not the Force forgives doesn't really matter in the end. The forgiveness of others and the personal path to redemption for a character should be the focus in such stories, although there could always be a spiritual element to that too.

 

[Jsc]

Amazing answers! Bravo. Caltin Vanagor | Okkeus Dainlei | Jacen Nimdok

To continue, (as I'm still fascinated today with this discussion,) I'd like to ask my last questions.

Q: If you were the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, would you give all Jedi Knights the ability to legally pardon criminals? Or just some of them? Or none of them at all?​

Q: Why?​

 

[Garza]

For most Jedi who follow the very well known code of the various republics, then yes. There is no redeemable qualities of a Sith, as they are seen as "too far gone" or "Too dangerous to be left alive." However, under luke and the following Jedi Orders had a specific line that could be interpreted as going against this.

Jedi respect life, in any form.

Even if that means a Sith, or the very person who was attempting to kill you. Some characters take this to the extreme in attempting to end a fight without killing. In the case of one of my own Jedi characters, Kaleleon was fighting against a Sith Lord of Alkor Centaris alt accounts, and the entire time, Kale was not attempting to Kill the sith, but just prevent him from doing more damage. Asking if he could Help the lord, questioning him, asking him to stop, trying to get to the root of the problem. While it did end up with Kale "Killing" the Sith character due to being afflicted by Sith Posion, the idea stands.

I know that Caedyn Arenais is also known for being a very peaceful Jedi character trying to look for non-lethal means of fighting and accepting anyone. As is the story of Caedyn's father, who did fall to the dark side, became a Dark Jedi, but redeemed himself of it.

For the personal story of Atheus, he was never a Jedi, or a Sith. Just a dark sider who did some bad things. However, for years he has tried to stay away from the darkness and just be a "Better man than yesterday." Rather than the idea of a Jedi vs Sith. As he feels they are two sides of the same coin. Jedi do bad things, Sith do good things. Depends on the day, and circumstances.

Secondly, the argument of a "Good Sith" due to just following the religious code of the Sith by just "Freeing them of their chains" and "strengthening onese self through combat or trials" can be taken as just that. A group of people who want to strengthen themselves, and are not super bad guys. However, they are supposed to be "few and far between" where the SIth are "The big boogyman" who you are supposed to be scared of.

According to the movies? A sith is a Sith, and a Jedi is a Jedi. No redemption, no change, but you can fall to darkness. However, you have the cases of Kylo and Vader where they became good again. While it was hand waved away that just because they were now "Good" doesn't mean that if they came back to the people who were living, that the wouldn't stand trial.

Both died in their movies where they were redeemed.

So to me? According to the movies, in order to be redeemed in the eyes of the force from being a Sith/Bad guy, is to give the "Ultimate Sacrifice."

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

I mean, it depends if we mean movie logic or real logic.
Or more accurately; is the Dark Side a parasitic entity which takes away your choice and being free of it means you can make choices again? Or is it simply a choice to tap into a darker, more selfish side of your psyche?

Important question. If it's the first then I can see how 'redeeming' someone frees them from something akin to mind control.

I don't think that's what canon tells us though.

Therefore if it's the second is it like giving a dying murderer communion on his death bed? Does that absolve them of their sins?
To put it another way; if Darth Vader can spend 25 years killing, torturing, lying and betraying, why does a last minute killing of the Emperor redeem him? Could Moff Tarkin or Moff Gideon or any other NFU be redeemed similarly? If not why not?

My character Phylis Alince sees redemption as a process which can often take the rest of one's life depending on the severity of the crimes.
This character feels all the talk of redemption is the weak actions of naive Jedi who want to claim the moral high ground. Sith don't get special treatment on the revolving door or morality, and they deserve punishment. If they're sorry, that's nice but they should have considered it before doing evil.

So yeah, it's something I've always struggled with in Star Wars.

 

[Roth Likonis]

Now that's one I'll chime in on.

Personally, I'd totally give that power to the Jedi Knights. Only a Jedi would have the unbiased objectivity needed to look into someones mind, and truly judge whether or not someone was committing a crime for a good reason or not (such as stealing to feed ones self, or to protect someone, or committing a crime under duress). Only a Jedi would be able to unemotionally evaluate them and then render judgement like that.

That said, the Jedi themselves might not like that concept? That would be inherently interfering with the courts, judicial processes, and the innumerable laws and governances that rule the tens of thousands of species across the galaxy. A Jedi would have to have massive knowledge of any given species to avoid diplomatic incidents.

A counter: Should a Jedi's testimony (including interpretations of mental states, stated as fact, as well empathic and telepathic probing) be allowed within a court of alien law? Or does this constitute breaches of privacy and right to self that are, inherently, something a Jedi shouldn't breach publicly?

 

[Jsc]

Roth Likonis - It depends.

And I'm not going to elaborate as I consider the infinitude of answers to your question would all eventually be melted down into a matter of mere legislation and happenstance.

shrugs

 

[Garza]

I have to agree with you. Valiens Nantaris

If the person lives, and is to atone for their "Sins" and they are in the progress of being redeemed, then it needs to be a extremely hard fought, Long lasting, life sentence.

While I am attempting to have Atheus be redeemed of his bad actions, it is still extremely difficult. Breaking any kind of habit, or changing someone to be redeemed takes years of dedication and change. Plus, most of the time, the habit is only replaced with something else. I hate seeing stories of people suddenly being "Redeemed" after two or three threads, then suddenly become a Jedi Master who is well trusted.

No. If someone is attempting to be redeemed, it would be more along the lines of a Probation where they have check ins and people who watch for any relapses in judgement.

In the case that I made earlier of Vader and Kylo, I feel it was more of "In the eyes of the force" rather than "in the eyes of people." As in many interpretations of media, show that "dying for someone else" or the ultimate sacrifice for saving someone, or many people is considered "Serving that life sentence."

Rather than just a straight up death sentence where they are killed when they still want to do bad things. It pains me to see people "Flip flop" from Jedi to sith and back again. I have done this in the past in poor judgement, and have learned from it.

Now? If you play a character seeking redemption, then it needs to be played like a Crack Addict who is trying to quit. There will be relapses in judgement, problems that come up that they would "Fail" at being a Jedi/Good person. And they must face the consequences for it, and take YEARS of work to do so. Not just a couple threads, and calling it a day.

 

[Roth Likonis]

Which is itself a fair point! Jsc

I would suggest that what a Jedi is allowed to do or not to do is more largely dependent on what society would allow them to do. Ultimately the Jedi were oft beholden to the societies they served, regardless of era, which invariably shaped their interaction with them at a personal level. Personally I think that created a lot of the impotence we see in the Old Republic, especially during the time of the Clone Wars.

But it's a fun thought experiment. It reminds me a lot of the Tython era, when Je'daii had a lot more leeway in intervening directly in affairs - in that scenario, I don't think a force user would have any qualms about judging or passing mercy on a criminal. They were considered an ultimate authority on such matters many of the times.

 

[Jsc]

Garza - To be clear. I did not create this discussion to find "The One True Holy Answer of Most Correct and Sacred Jedi Action". Lol. This is not a game of "Who is Holier Than Thou".

Rather. I'm just musing and polling different opinions from different writers, about an inconsistant genre full of silly sci-fi goofiness, technobabble, and space magic. So? Yeah. Your mileage may very. And, whatever you decide to believe? Or write out for your characters to believe? Just know...

I don't care.

At the end of the day, it's all fan fiction anyway.

Roth Likonis - Bingo. Nail on the head, mate. Slayed it!

 

[Caedyn Arenais]

I personally love discussions like these, exploring the moral and ethical dilemmas that Jedi may face in their duty to the Force and to the wider Galaxy.

However I also don't feel that there's a right or wrong answer here, it very much comes back to that age old discussion of "how to play a Jedi correctly" and why that title is absolute nonsense when put alongside us writers who have different views and understandings of the Jedi Code, and how the Jedi have changed over the generations depicted in the Movies and the Novels.

Simply put, this one comes down to the individual, in my opinion. Given that is the case from my understanding, I can only express my views and elaborate a little more where Veiere and Caedyn's ideologies and world views are concerned.

The main difference between Veiere and his Son is down to their upbringing: Veiere raised from the age of five within the Jedi Enclave of Svivren, while Caedyn was first trained within the Order of the Je'daii under the tutelage of Asha Hex, taught to respect the one whole Force, both the Ashla (Light) and the Bogan (Dark) in the pursuit of the way of Bendu (Balance); Only later joining the Order of the Silver Jedi when the Je'daii Order disbanded.

Both Characters however have based their judgements upon the actions of others however, not their affiliations. For example, a Sith can be affiliated with the Darkside yet not be guilty of anything until committing a crime and only then would action need to be taken, according to my characters beliefs.

On the subject of forgiveness and the posed questions:

• Q: Are there any crimes or offenses that a Jedi can or should never ever forgive?

I don't believe so, however redemption also needs to come hand in hand with forgiveness and the guilty party needs to account for their actions and make amends. With regards to someone corrupted by the darkside I can use my alt Valen Arenais who's currently held within the Silver Rest while he is undergoing therapy to cleanse his connection to the Force and strengthen the light within him.​

​

Were he a Sith, this might be an endeavor that would take far longer and were he guilty of murder, that might require someone to play out a long narrative focused on making up for their past deeds, however that again is also entirely down to the player and the situation.​

• Q: Likewise, (or, depending on interpretation,) are there any crimes or offenses that The Force itself can or should never ever forgive?

My interpretation of the Force is most often founded upon a basis of spirituality and that it encompasses all things good and bad. You cannot have light without the dark and vice versa, balance if you will. Unlike sentient life which is flawed, the Force is so much more in the eyes of my characters. It does not hold a grudge, however it can be wounded when a life is taken via unnatural means, as the Force flows through all living things and binds them together. When you take a life, you take from the Force.​

​

Again however, this is just what Caedyn believes today. He's far more of a neutral good sort of alignment where as his father was more of a lawful good type, having been raised by the Jedi and being trained through that singular bias. It's also important to remember that at the end of the day, the Jedi are still sentient and flawed like any other civilian or imperial, criminal or politician. They're prone to making mistakes and they too must be accountable in these times.

 

[Garza]

Jsc

Oh I know, I was just continuing the conversation. Though, it went in a little bit of a different way than you may have intended, I was not meaning to make it all about. "The right way." Its just an opinion I hold about the circumstance you presented. Its all in the name of fun, and at the end of the day, I know nobody on here really cares about other peoples characters or stories than their own.

 

[Jsc]

Garza - Outstanding! Nailed it.

 

[Elpsis Kerrigan]

To be frank, I've never been keen on Star Wars' take on redemption. 'Oh, sure, Darth, you murdered kids and participated in genocide, but you killed the evil Sith Lord and said you're sorry, so it's ok.' In the movies at least, Vader's redemption was presented as something unique that could be achieved via the connection with his son (and it took Luke almost dying)...and he died in the process. And while his son and the Force saw him as having atoned...the rest of the galaxy did not suddenly change their mind on him.

But then KotoR came along and made it Jedi dogma to constantly 'redeem' any Sith they come across (well, except Malak and the nameless NPCs the party kills during its many rampages, I guess) and so it gets presented as absolute Jedi dogma (hmm, I don't recall the Jedi trying to do it in the prequels, Obi just tries to reach out to Anakin due to them being former comrades/brothers). And, hell, Kyp blows up planets, but Luke said it's ok because he felt guilty about it. So...genocide is ok if you feel bad about it afterwards and happen to be a space mage because there's two set of laws, one for mages, another for normal people.

So...if you're a space mage and say you're sorry, you get let off the hook for crimes they hung people at the Nuremberg Trials. In short, the perpetrator is more important than their victims. This kind of morality works for fairy tale with a very simplistic morality system, which is what Star Wars is. It falls apart when you look at things seriously. And presume that these characters had actual agency instead of being mind-controlled by an evil demon. Why shouldn't a Force-Sensitive war criminal be put on trial for said war crimes in a court of law? And face a life sentence or the death penalty. Honestly, it's one of the reasons I don't write Jedi. The fact that Jedi X said this or that is not sufficient reason for me to abandon real logic.

Now Elpsis is no Jedi or the type to give Sith second chances. Far as she's concerned, Jedi who obsess over redemption care more about their halo and are frankly being elitist. But I've been writing a 'redemption arc' of sorts for an NPC in her story. Diona essentially came from a war-torn hellhole of a planet where the Jedi went along the same path as Joruus C'baoth and Atris - they became tyrants during the Dark Age while thinking they're still righteous. Diona grew up in a warped, totalitarian system and committed evil deeds.

Elpsis ended up being captured by an extremist group in that government. Diona was the person who captured her and became her jailer. Thus she facilitated Elpsis getting tortured and brainwashed - and sometimes participated in it. Over time she came to doubt the cause though before concluding that it was wrong and tried to shield her from the worst of it...bit late. Then her boss came to visit to gloat over his new tool. This ultimately culminated in Diona being arrested for heresy, Elpsis breaking her conditioning and both taking down their oppressors during a prison revolt. In the process, Diona also had to confront a massacre she'd participated in.

Now...Diona's part of Elpsis' team, after having spent time in prison and performed menial labour (and her rank got downgraded back to enlisted). However, Elpsis has not forgiven her, and Diona doesn't want her forgiveness. One person can't let her off the hook for the evil she's done (torture, massacre of civilians etc.). She's trying to make amends for her crimes (and wants to go back with Elpsis to liberate more of her people), but that's the road not a destination that she can reach and say 'I'm redeemed now, all my crimes are forgiven' because that would mean spitting on all her victims. Her atonement will take her whole life.

Frankly, Elpsis came close to killing her after the battle and the main reason she didn't, other than the fact that Diona had helped her, is because she realised that killing her would be a mercy...and it's more of a punishment to let Diona live and force her to face her sins every day and because she's a useful resource. By now she's mostly come to trust her...but she hasn't forgiven her. And if Diona turned on her or deserted Elpsis would kill her without hesitation. And the former inmates of the prison camp who got evacuated with them certainly don't see her as having redeemed herself...since she was part of the secret police that tormented them.

 

[Matsu Ike]

It is a tricky thing that has changed since 40+ years of movies and expanded universe material. Vader being redeemed was more forgiven in Lukes eyes then in the rest of the galaxy. Most in the old legends acknowledged it happened but it was more a one off as opposed to the way it always is. Leia still was angry with him and in the NuCanon him being her real father despite what he did is still used against her. Revan from the KotOR game is another example of it somewhat... the jedi's answer was... mind wipe and set him against his former empire to do what they couldn't. Perhaps the best example for redemption would be Ulic... a great story and that in the end he lived but was cut off from the force was something thematic.

Really it depends on who is writing it and at times what era it is. No one cared as much about Kyp destroying a solar system because it was all attributed to Kun's influence.

 

[Cord Starfall]

Q: Are there any crimes or offenses that a Jedi can or should never ever forgive?

To Quote something Cord's Jedi Master Maize Wayne once said to her.

"No matter what darkness one had buried with in themselves, there is always a glimmer of light. It is the individual and the light inside them, that a jedi must focus on and not the darkness that surrounds them.”

Both Cord and Her Master where reformed sith seeking redemption for the Horrors they had brought upon the Galaxy. Her whole first major story arch was the struggle of overcoming the evils she had committed through good acts and deeds. Her Master ultimately fell back to the darkside and even Cord herself fell back tot he darkside though hers was due to getting flooded with energy from a darkside Nexus.

Yet Jedi must forgive for if they do not and they focus on the evil another committed, they themselves might be consumed by that darkness.

Parts of the Jedi even speak towards such.

A Jedi never acts from hatred, anger, fear, or aggression but acts when calm and at peace with the Force.
Jedi respect life, in any form.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.

If Redemption is self improvement, admitting your fault and seeking to fix them through Knowledge and training. Then there are a few tenets of the Jedi.

A Jedi will not take revenge.
A Jedi does not cling to the past.
The Jedi do not believe in killing their prisoners.

They do not believe in retribution of past deeds and do not believe in in execution so that leaves Rehabilitation in most cases. I firmly believe a true Jedi must forgive.

Q: Likewise, (or, depending on interpretation,) are there any crimes or offenses that The Force itself can or should never ever forgive?

I am long term believer that force scars those that use it inappropriately. It Scars you so you may never truly forget the mistakes you have made or the atrocities you have caused. The force it isn't about forgiveness or punishment exactly more it's will is to make sure you do not forget what you have done and that you have to live with what you have done.

You can be cleansed of sins/scars but it takes time lots of time even if lightside force attempts to cleanse you of it the scar is deeper it takes your own willpower to move forward and past what you have done. I think of the force more as reminder but also that you can eventually over come anything it really isn't again about forgiveness or punishment.

Q: Why?
Simple a Jedi must forgive because dwelling on the darkness will consume them.

The Force doesn't work in forgiveness or punishment it works to remind you of your acts good or evil.


Q: If you were the Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, would you give all Jedi Knights the ability to legally pardon criminals? Or just some of them? Or none of them at all?
They would pardon some those who wrongfully imprisoned, those who did acts out of necessity (stealing food so not starve), and those who have been rehabilitated.

Those that are not yet rehabilitated would remain, and few who refuse to be rehabilitated would remain.

Q: Why?
Because Jedi must forgive however a jedi must always put the needs of the community above the needs of individuals. So if someone is not rehabilitated they are a danger to society so must remain in prison.

 

[Jsc]

...Jedi must forgive for if they do not and they focus on the evil another committed, they themselves might be consumed by that darkness.

...Simple a Jedi must forgive because dwelling on the darkness will consume them.

You wouldn't happen to have any direct in-universe references or support for this, would you?

And no. Lessons from The Batman, don't count. LOL. Jk. Love Maize.

 

[Njeri Demascón]

I don't know how much I have to add to the conversation so I'll just let my mind wander through this.

It's crucial here to separate some similar, yet markedly different concepts that simply are not necessarily mutually inclusive.

[Forgiveness] [Redemption] [Atonement]​

A person can atone for their crimes and still never be forgiven. A person can receive forgiveness and yet never truly atone. In my opinion, I don't believe one can achieve redemption without being forgiven and performing atonement.

However, these concepts are incredibly personal. I don't mean in the sense of everyone has a different opinion of what they represent (even though this discussion is clearly evidence to that point). Instead, the application of these concepts are different for every person who has suffered from them. Luke may be able to forgive his father for his sins, but a significant number of people throughout the galaxy suffered as a result of Darth Vader's actions. No one else had the personal connection to Vader that Luke had, so few of those affected individuals would likely bestow "forgiveness" onto Vader. They are probably more thankful that he's dead and he took the Emperor with him. But forgiveness? I don't think so.

So in that case, I don't think that there's anything a Jedi could say that should influence the feelings of another person. We might be able to take a Jedi at their word to say that an individual is trying to atone for their sins. And that they must live in order to do so, for dying will not bring atonement, only justice. But, as stated before, no amount of true atonement may ever bring about "forgiveness" from those have have suffered.

The Jedi are certainly keen on forgiveness. If we were to simplify this hypothetical, there are two concepts that sort of circle each other, but I don't think they are quite accurate.

[Forgiveness] [Justice]​

Justice is something determined in a court of law on behalf of an aggrieved party. But justice can't grant someone forgiveness, and it doesn't necessarily require atonement, and thus, doesn't really cover the "feelings" involved here. Instead, to me, the true points circling each other are:

[Forgiveness] [Vengeance]​

Vengeance is a more accurate polar opposite to forgiveness simply because of the personal element. If circumstances had been different, and Vader had already turned Leia to the dark side (as an extreme personal example), then surely Vader would be beyond forgiveness in Luke's eyes and he would be bent on vengeance instead. We nearly saw that very thing happen when Vader goaded Luke into attacking him.

And seeking vengeance is not the way of the Jedi. So the only "justice" that a Jedi can attempt to serve is by being forgiving.