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Suggestion Invasions: criteria for judging

Jsc

Disney's Princess
It's a great rule, well written, and positive in nature and moral. I love it, I've respected it, I've respected other people because of it, and I've held my tongue on more than one occasion because it exists.

However,

Problem: It's out of my control

I feel for Faction Admins here. I really do. They are tasked with being coordinators, moderators, and spokesmen. Keeping the peace. Alas. They can't actually control the actions or toxicity of everyone who is technically representing them. Especially when it comes to "thought policeing" Discord servers.​
Solution: Faction Admins need a forgiveness clause added to the condition.

Problem: My freedom to protest is being compromised

I feel for everybody here. When silence is preferred to constructive debate? You've silenced the Senate and the voice of the people too. After all. How can we seek solutions when we must always avoid the very appearance of evil? Especially since not all conflict resolution can be handled responsibility behind closed doors, 100% of the time. Sometimes it goes public, via accident or stress or provocation, and must be addressed publicly; before eventually returning once again to private channels for moderation. A stain will be seen. Yet, should not always be counted as such.​
Solution: We need an addition to the drama condition which excuses the mere public appearance of the multiple steps of the conflict resolution cycle in use. And, which definitively lists the proper steps in the conflict resolution cycle where in private communications are listed preferably. Not exclusively.

If you want more personal responsibilty from people. We must then allow for and forgive the natural appearances of evil inside us all. 2 cents.
 
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I know that I haven't been here that long so I don't know how much y'all would put stock into this.

What if we reworded the Drama section to make it more clear that we're intending to look at cooperation instead of negatively looking at each side. For example I know in the couple of invasions I've been in, which people keep telling me are not the standard for how invasions normally go, I was actively told that if I had issues, to keep it out of open discord chat. That anything someone said could be twisted and construed out of context as "salt", even when said issue was when I tried to resolve something with other players. And that despite all the issues that I had, because there was no official reports done for any of them, because we didn't want them to be viewed negatively for the drama section it didn't get counted at all.

I think a better way to have this going forward is to instead focus on things that are taken to the faction staff, IC and OOC issues alike, and gives each faction to show things that happened, issues that came up, and show how both sides handled it. It gives a release valve for people who are writing in invasions and are either getting frustrated or straight up angry af without them essentially having to pull up some random person's DMs in discord so they can almost essentially cry/scream at them. It allows for an issue to be addressed in the open, with the ability for both sides to be able to clearly see and review stuff, without relying on possibly edited screen caps of private conversations or word of mouth. And it encourages faction staff to address problems as they arise, but also gives people who aren't faction staff the chance to look at an issue and either provide another viewpoint or even option to resolve the thing without it ever escalating that far. Should toxicity be allowed in this? Hells no. The intent for this is to allow RPers and staff to have an open discourse on what's going on without every problem having to start with the phrase "I need to DM insert staff name here,". Because if you keep it in DMs then all you're really doing is just hiding the toxicity that might be going on, and in my experience hiding something like that, doesn't end well for anyone.

And I just saw Jsc Jsc post and completely agree. So with that-

Digs into pockets and tosses two c-bills into the center hat.

There's my two C-bills, do with it what you will.
 
Just going to point this out with the new additions to this discussion.

The goal for every invasion is for members of both parties to have fun and enjoy their experience, and to create a fun and interesting story comprised of the actions of each character as individuals and participating factions as a whole; however, this can be derailed by behavior that is not conducive for such an ideal environment.

Conducting yourself to ask questions, ask for clarifications, edits, or simply talking things out, is well within the "Conductive Environment" that people are going to be judged about. Going into Discord to say. "I don't like this action cus this." or Ranting about it in a discord is not something I personally see as being Drama. Its your opinion that you don't like it. You are free to express as such.

Individuals who screen cap, then try to "Snitch" or "Tattletale" on you, or the individual in question, is not something that adheres to the faction. Unlike the army where if one person karks up, it doesn't mean I am going to smoke you all.

The Drama category is how the Faction, AS A WHOLE, Conducts themselves within the invasion. I even highlighted this in my quote of the Invasion criteria specifically because that is likely the biggest part of it. Such things as "I don't like how this character, IC, is performing this action." Rants, or discussions, is typically not what I am looking for when judging. Nor am I looking for screen caps of individuals speaking about it In discord. Maybe their "Rant" was them talking it out to their faction, to see if there were any ways around it, or to make an advantage of an IC situation?

What I look for in the Drama category, is how severe the faction acts as a whole towards the other faction. There are cases in the past which I see as some bad points of this. I will not speak of them for simplicity sake, and because I do not want to open that can of worms.

However, I feel that this suggestion, is more so a calling out of how the community acts.

If you really feel the need, that in order to get a point in an invasion, to screen cap everything to "Tattletale" on the faction you are facing against, then to me, it seems like you are acting Against this very rule. Attempting to create a situation in which can be not conductive of the Roleplay. Frankly, its a dick move. One that I do not find conductive towards aiding your side. No one likes "That Guy/Gal"

Drama, in its current form of judgement for me on a personal stand point, can be about the smaller stuff of one person against another. Its about how you specifically treat each other as a living, breathing person on the other side of the internet connection. Do you talk to them, and talk it out in some form? Great! Will it maybe get heated? Sure. Do you two separate go your own ways and make up for it? Great.

That is conductive of a PvP environment.
 

Jsc

Disney's Princess
Vora Kaar Vora Kaar - What you have just provided is one singular opinion about how to adjudicate what is, and what is not, "drama." Which, while spectacularly awesome and very mature by itself, may not be insightful enough nor reliable enough to sway the frustrations, behaviors, and public perception of the game being discussed here. As an example: if you were to tell me that one Judge in a group of Judges was righteous. Therefore all of the judges themselves are righteous. I may not actually assume to believe you. Especially since I myself as a player cannot see how, or why, they make the decisions they do in accordance to a text about, or even the very definition of, "drama" itself. Which, may be an opinion unto itself too.

However,

That said. I believe we have simply taken separate approaches to fixing the same complaints. I for one, do not believe that the condition as it stands is simply being misinterpreted. Oh no. Far from it. Rather, I believe it is actually physically lacking any statement about forgiveness and tolerance that you so maturely embody through your own personal judgements and beliefs. And it is my firm belief that should the condition receive such additions that no further education or clarification would be required on your part, or any other Judges part, should similar complaints or frustrations ever arise again. They would be literal to the text. Not assumed differently by Judge and country.

Therefore. I think my idea is still a wiser option by about 0.001%. Especially given the freedom from stress and worry it would provide to our Faction Admins through drama forgiveness and, as you emphasized so well, greater freedom from the subjective nature of "drama" itself.

2 cents. Great stuff.

TLDR: We want the same thing. Jay wants Vora on his bandwagon.
 
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I think that there should be penalties for ‘competative snitching’. If a faction or individual is that kind of insecure that they need to race to a judge to show them all the things said about them, to ‘win’? Then they a) are not focused on just writing a story and b) Have no faith in themselves or the ones who write with them.

Its a poor mark. It’s one thing to be ticked off about a play done in a thread. We’ve all been there in some shape or form in and outside the forum. However, it is still no excuse. You can easily disagree with a behavior or action, without being nasty and impolite. We have manners, for a reason and far too often people act like ill mannered, ill taught, little monsters.

If tomorrow say, Tathra, waltz into a thread and take pot shots at someone and add nothing to a thread? I’d report the post and go on with my day. If in that same hand he came to me and started chewing me out because he found out it was me? I’d block him and go to staff. If I heard that he was then raging behind my back spewing vile because of it all? I wouldn’t plant a single feth in my field and I know full well that it would either go away, or someone would deal with it for me.

My reaction when I found out? “Oh really? Lol. Good on him I guess, don’t care.”

Do I believe he would, no. The same thing can be said for anyone who does talk about me. Would I run to the judges and use that during an invasion? No. Could I have used an event that happened to me, around invasion time against another person? Yes. Did I? No.

Firstly because it would accomplish nothing, secondly because it would impact nothing and third? Because it wouldn’t change nor appease my feelings.

Now, in that same hand. Say the Tofu Monarchy was known for throwing tantrums and making accusatory and inflammatory statements every time someone said they hated tofu. And sending people to other factions to use them to make sure no one was saying they hated Tofu, but if they see it they run to staff to tattle. Say I knew that a new member in my faction was from Tofu. I, myself, am not in Tofu, but I would quietly mention to staff that name, because of the behavior I have seen with my own eyes.

Does that mean I am biased? No, but I also don’t want my own faction to get fire in the face over stupid soybean squares that taste like pink pencil eraser.

I am giving that Tofu member a chance to be themselves, to be on the side of angels, but fully aware the politics that are rewarded and enabled could very well make a person do and say things to fit in.

The Tofu Monarchy has a culture I do not agree with. Therefor, I would not write with them. I would not talk about them. I would ignore them as best I can and if they instigated confrontation ICly or OOCly then I would write to the best I could and keep my community as best I can from providing the fuel the Tofu feeds on to use as an avenue to react with uncalled for social antics.

If I stand on the side of angels, then that reflects so and makes the Tofu look like the ones with the poor behavior. Does it grate on the nerves? Yes. Would complaining, raging and spewing make me happy? Maybe a bit. Would it help my case, would it get vindication from the words thrown at me? No. All it does is empower my enemy further and lower me to their standard.

All we can do is make the personal choice to turn our backs and our posts from those we do not like. All we can choose to do is, if need be, talk politely of those that would tear us down. Because at the end of the day, those that choose to use our poor words will do so and one of these days, that person won't be a friend and in turn the behaviors will then cease to benefit. Those that play those games today, who collect people who do those things, have a habit of turning on the one who collected them or the one who collected on them and so the spiral continues.

The only way not to feed it, is to give it no means with which to find a meal. To not reward or enable. To not shelter and abide it.

So while it is easy to ask to change a rule on a forum, it would be better still to look to yourself. To make a decision for your self. To surround yourself with those that make that same choice. To shape a community around that principal. Instead of trying to make a case for rule changing because changing that rule will not fix the issue.

Only by making that stand the new norm, can you change things. You do that, by starting with the self and letting go of those who push back. Because manners mean quite a whole lot, something that seems to have been forgotten. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The value of the Golden Rule, seems to have been cast aside.
 
:: HERO of KORRIBAN ::
Moderator
Vora Kaar Vora Kaar

I appreciate the insight into how your mind works on this. I would like to kindly point out though that the part of the sentence just before also states: actions of each character as individuals.

As many of us who have participated understand, for the most part the factions seem to treat each other well on a whole. However, it is the actions of individuals which can sour the experience for many. We all remember the blog by a certain faction owner which took the concept of consent waaaay to far before an invasion even began. That one choice colored the entire invasion, and was the deciding factor for the category in question.

To some of what Jsc Jsc had suggested, I will be the first proponent for forgiveness. That being said, I am also a strong proponent for accountability. Taking individual actions into account, especially ones which are egregious, or demonstrative of repeat behavior over the course of invasions, requires faction owners and their teams to do something about the toxicity.

Again the goal is to create an enjoyable environment, and one person has the ability to make a difference one way or another. This means there needs to be a measure of accountability for this as well. The language as written seems to allow for that and promote the idea that a faction could, and should, be held responsible for the negative impact the actions of one individual may have.
 
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Judah Lesan Judah Lesan
 
Speaking as someone who helped put in the rules for the updated invasion criteria I will say the following.

Old invasions/rebellions were a mess. Everyone was so focussed on winning their duels to gain points that they did everything in their power to avoid losing because doing so was 'letting the side down'. The OOC threads were toxic and the peer pressure to win was strong. I remember several people being accused of being 'traitors' because their character took a hit or lost a duel, so hyper focussed was everyone on victory.

Is it perfect now? Of course not. I can't fix human nature, no one can. People will still queen and complain and snipe and complain.

This criteria though makes it less salty in public though, and has improved invasion behaviour considerably. What people do in voice chats or DMs or via pigeon my team can't enforce or judge.

I am however always looking for ways to refine what we have. If you have a proposal for changing how it's worded I will certainly take that into account.

We have made it clear many times that reporting something will not be punished or count against you...but you must talk to the other person first. If you do not get a resolution, report it. But make sure the other person is actually breaking rules when you do!
 
I know one of the biggest issue I have dealt with in my most recent invasion is other parties not acknowledging each other’s actions. This has led to some drama ensuing since my side of the invasion can’t do really anything if the other party just ignores our actions.

The only real way I can see this drama being worked on is if staff are constantly watching the invasion, it’s discussions, and (possibly) it’s Discord. Which I don’t think they want to keep track of all of those at once.

Just my two cents. Love the idea, but I feel like there will always be drama involved in invasions.
 

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