Discussion How Do We Tell Better Stories Through PvP?

[Alan]

You have to not want to be the main character.

You have to read it, you have to come up with a reply, not ChatGPT, if you ask me. ChatGPT/AI writing (not AI tools, AI writing) makes PvP soulless and devoid of anything but what you input into it, rather than what you think.

Saying fifty words when four will do sucks. Sometimes two paragraphs is more than enough to convey that you're in a fight. Waxing poetic about your struggles as an orphan on the mean streets of Dagobah while trying to bash someone's skull in with the hilt of a lightsaber is kind of funny.

PvP is the story. The war is the story. The fight is the story. Did Qui-Qon and Darth Maul have a great story to it? Yes. The story was the fight. It was the moments within it, the duel itself. Too often I see writers wondering about story, about narrative, etc. But maybe the good story is the good fight. Take for instance, the story of Gothic Serpent, and Black Hawk Down as the movie. The story progresses over a series of fights and battles, effectively small skirmishes. But it's the way it's presented, told, that compels the viewer to be hooked into something as simple as two people shooting at each other. The same way with Star Wars. The narrative around the fight supersedes the fight, but the narrative is also the fight itself. Create the fight, the visuals, the stakes, the way your character moves, how they move, etc.

Imagine if, Obi-wan and Anakin stopped in the middle of their duel to have a discussion. It would remove the tension. I've seen that recently and over the years. Great duel, great fight, swordplay, trying to hurt each other- pause! Time to talk, to think. Very odd to read when you're going from trying to kill someone, to trying to think about someone.

edit:

some errors n corrections/ a word added

 

[Braze]

I’m glad to see so many active members of our little community out in force today. To help keep the discussion focused, I would appreciate it if everyone participating could choose a few questions from the opening post to answer, as that would be the most helpful to me.❤

 

[Kitter Bitters]

What makes someone enjoyable to write opposition against?

Easy going, no requirement to read subs or lore, not taking it too seriously or expecting the medium to be something it isn’t. For the love of Padme don’t ask me to edit a billion times over nothing.

How do you acknowledge attacks and counters without assuming damage or no-selling the attempt?

You don’t. Take damage on every turn. Even if it’s minor and emotional more than physical.

Where is the distinction between competent preparation and "playing to win"?

I don’t know how to answer this because it seems like someone doing either would be taking it too seriously. Just have fun. That’s all. This isn’t a novel.

How can experienced invasion writers help newer writers understand what works?

Maybe smaller stakes bigger threads to help ease people into it. Invasions move so fast. Also if you always write with the same old people it’s hard for new people to break in. But I get people want to write with friends. Just need to share the wealth.

What makes you trust an opposing writer enough to accept serious consequences?

Trust has nothing to do with it. Try it out. If you don’t like it after just scrap it. Again this is a game, not published work that has to follow strict continuity. If you have fun the thread is a success no matter what.

What causes promising PvP stories to break down?

Long long posts, asking for edits, forcing tech down someone’s throat, taking it too seriously, ignoring new players …


Hope this helps! It’s not for everyone. Find people who share your vibe and that helps.

Now we all know what comes next.

 

[Aurelian Sigismund]

What makes someone enjoyable to write opposition against?
Communication and a sense of equality. Not just in taking hits, but also having a similar mindset towards the entire process of the story and narrative, towards what they want and what you want. If they communicate clearly and openly their intentions and wants and you can work with that because you have a similar approach, there is no stopping of having an awesome tale to tell.

How do you acknowledge attacks and counters without assuming damage or no-selling the attempt?
As a heavy armour player, I have the luxury of being able to take them, as in, I can always write that they connect, that they scratch, do not entirely pierce or whatever to offer the attack, counter to connect and have an impact without giving every attack the possibility to lastingly impact the character. Further than that, I personally feel like it is easiest to work with someone, in a 1v1, if you assume their character is the main character and you are what stands between them and their goal. It gives you taking the hits much more intriguing. Naturally - that should be mutual feeling, or else the fight will turn one sided quite quickly.

Where is the distinction between competent preparation and "playing to win"?
Competent preparation is when you have the respect and decency to read a character's bio bare minimum and at least acknowledge the main weapon/armour they wear or wield.
Playing to win is printing bible posts to be super smart about how one evades an attack or how one lands it, how every paragraph is just a firing of another factory/NPC sub and how their Ultra-Gear 4.000 is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, how every soldier is exactly where they are meant to be etc.

How can experienced invasion writers help newer writers understand what works?
Take their hand, show them communication, coordination and most importantly, integration. Just because a character is two days old with three posts, doesn't mean it should not compete with a ten years old, 5.000 posts character. Give newer writers a chance to join on the big game, on the core objectives and let them both make mistakes and offer insight. Only through action and failure there is learning. So for new writers, cut them some slack, let them make the mistakes and not condemn them or push them away because they are new and do not know everything yet.

What makes you trust an opposing writer enough to accept serious consequences?
When I feel that they are sharing the same vibe that I have. Shoutout to Caltin Vanagor and Thurion Heavenshield here for right now being THE writers who I would not mind getting my main killed by. There is no general formula of what works for everyone. Everyone has their own style, own needs and wants. Find those people you vibe with and you will experience great PvP.

What causes promising PvP stories to break down?
The repeated request of edits, getting worked up over miniscule details, the need to win harder, constant disputes over hard numbers and ultimately, the realisation that the two writing styles do not vibe with each other.

 

[Alan]

Sure but, I’m not just talking the submissions, like we work hard on our characters back stories and then RP them through their journey. To hear that a potential writing partner just doesn’t want to be bothered kind of sucks. I like the depth that comes with writing and role playing.

eh.

I think that's what a Character Biography should be really for, not necessarily the backstory. I think if I don't know your character, the biography gives me everything you'd need to know in a condensed package. I don't think it's realistic to say that I should have to read a lengthy diatribe and thread on thread, article on article, submission and submission, about your character to know who they are. Or, really, you shouldn't need to read anything to interact with someone. I think it's mostly a time sink and engagement thing, for most people. Hours spent reading threads you have no connection to isn't for everyone, and people have limited schedules as it is.

I think any time that people give you for writing with you or reading what you write is a gift in of itself and should be respected.

 

[Quinn Varanin]

Alan i agree. My words were rushed but at the end of it, when i find myself interested in writing with someone i want to absorb or have already been reading their writing. It definitely is a dopamine effect to hear someone enjoying how my character is portrayed etc.

My point was mostly for people who have reached out to write with any of my character and then turn around and say they do not care to read / hear anything about them beyond the particular scene feels off putting.

This is definitely a personal thought and one that I understand people will have different opinions on the subject. But for me, I want to feel my writing partner is just as interested in my character and their story as theirs are to me or at least excited about the interaction and how it can evolve / change the character.

lol I’m mobile posting at work so I hope this all makes sense xD

 

[Hatred]

To answer all the questions in a single word:

Communication.

Talking about goals, expectations, the vibe. What hits are hits, how to help new folks, it all boils down to being able to talk to the other person. If talkin to them rubs the wrong way, then break off and find someone else.

 

[Kitter Bitters]

My point was mostly for people who have reached out to write with any of my character and then turn around and say they do not care to read / hear anything about them beyond the particular scene feels off putting.

I don’t think anybody in this thread said they do not care to read or hear anything about characters beyond a particular scene.

What most people have said is they don’t want lore to be necessary reading to interact with someone in PVP.

I’m assuming most of us spend a lot of time reading what others write. I fangirl out every time Romi Jade does prettily much anything for example.

Most of us just have really busy lives so we want to read when we can but not have it mandatory before joining larger PvP threads.

I do get what you mean though. I’ve rethought writing with a few people I’ve asked to interact with. After seeing their behavior on the board I now want nothing to do with them. I get that it happens. In the end just write with the peeps you vibe with and it all works out.

 

[Ko Vuto]

 

[Joy]

I don't think anybody in this thread said they do not care to read or hear anything about characters beyond a particular scene.

No. That is what has been said.

 

[Kitter Bitters]

No. That is what has been said.

Where? Provide screenshots of those words please because I do not see them.

 

[Joy]

Kitter Bitters

5. Show respect to everyone in the role-play.

I'm not feeling like breaking this rule to answer this question tbh.

 

[Kitter Bitters]

Okay well I don't want anybody to break any rules either. I can only speak for myself but to clarify: I personally did not say that I do not care to read or hear anything about characters beyond a particular scene.

What I meant was I don't want to have to read a ton of stuff JUST to do an invasion etc. I would like to be able to jump in and play if I have limited time. I do enjoy reading, but do not want it to be mandatory.

 

[Srina Talon]

What makes someone enjoyable to write opposition against?

Respect in all forms. Respect for the writers you're opposing, their time, their efforts, their perspective, writing style, and everything else in between, from gear to a wild plot point. When snarkiness comes into play in any form, that's the moment you've lost the plot. While invasions offer PVP, they are not limited to PVP. There is a space for character development, PVE, and the thoughts and motivations of the characters involved. I prefer lto write long-ish posts and have written that way since 2017 because I like to offer more. I link things, but I make it so you're not required to click them; I just detail what they do in the posts...Which is why they can be chonky.​

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That being said... I never expect my opposition to write back that much. I'm happy for ANYTHING they give because they took time out of their day to give it to me. Even, sadly, if it's a "Darth Metus Watches" scenario and the post is ONE line. If I haven't unfriended Aether Verd for that one yet, everyone is safe. I'll make it work.​

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I believe that when opposition tries to understand where I'm coming from, and I try to understand them, we vibe. Even if the tech doesn't match up or if the junk science is mad junky. I go with the flow and let them know that if they want me to edit anything or hype up any of their attacks, to please let me know. I'm probably one of the insane-o's that doesn't MIND edits at all. If it helps my opponent write easier, better, it's worth it - No?​

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Now I MAY have forgotten to specifically offer this to Lorn Reingard and Acier Moonbound , but I'm pretty sure I did to The Arkanian and Carduul Akahl . On the off chance that my Jedi boys aren't aware you are now haha.​

How do you acknowledge attacks and counters without assuming damage or no-selling the attempt?

Again, respect.​

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Try to give a little and get a little. We're usually writing either superpowered beings OR people so heavily geared up they might as well be...So it typically turns into a slug fest. Different characters have different thresholds for pain, damage, etc., so I try to keep that in mind about my opponent and myself. Knowing characters on both sides at least a little, or respecting what they bring to the table, is pivotal.​

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Ex.)​

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Seraphina Corvinus has existed for years, but she Is a blind Diathim that would be easily broken in PVP...I have no way around that (because I made her that way, yes I know), but she has to rely on others for help in the fullest way. A Sith, Jedi, Mando, or a large crack in the sidewalk would beat the breaks off of her. Knowing this character's history...She would be an easy target. No selling required; she's mulch. ​

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Srina Talon is the exact opposite of Seraphina. She's a fighter first and foremost, so she'd take a lot more effort to put in the ground...Just like any other seasoned warrior. There are varying things that help keep her alive, but they aren't infinite. Do enough damage, and eventually she'll go down just like anyone else in a battle of attrition. Even through this, though, I often try to sell the attacks made on her (especially if my oppo asks) when it feels appropriate. ​

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What I would caution against is just expecting characters to die if the writer doesn't want them to. A lot of times that's where some of the consternation seems to come from. The immediate jump to a character being a "god" if they don't just keel over or if they don't take the damage the oppo expects. It creates hostility when it should not, especially when communication can solve 99.9% of it.​

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So..I guess it could boil down to "know thyself, know thy enemy" and, for goodness sake, TALK to each other. Not AT each other. Avoid the weird obsession with people "taking too many hits" or "not taking enough" - It's maddening. You will drive yourself into a tizzy and likely drive your oppo up a wall.​

Where is the distinction between competent preparation and "playing to win"?

I think this might be the wrong question, but I'm not sure. Everyone is "technically" playing to win. You can bring as much gear as you need to, but choosing when to use it and when not to can be the key toward an exciting story or a boring one. Half of us have armor that can negate a lot (myself included), but that doesn't mean ALL of it should be deployed or acknowledged. I often skip things to give my oppo their due.​

How can experienced invasion writers help newer writers understand what works?

Ask them via feedback or even Discord. Participate.. But...Please be aware that "experienced" writers are not obligated to sit down and handle tutorials. That's not to disparage anyone, but some might just not have the time or don't like to teach. If you're facing experienced (or any) opposition, my first thought is to talk to them as soon as you know who you're up against.​

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Ex.) Maybe consider plotting out your posts a little ahead of time so you can take advantage of the camaraderie to be found in getting your cool moments. A lot of times you may find that you don't get what you want just because...You didn't ask.​

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Sometimes it won't work out. Some PVP partners are mismatched just like regular PVE. And that's okay...But you miss all the shots that aren't taken.​

What makes you trust an opposing writer enough to accept serious consequences?

This shouldn't be at the forefront of your worries. It's a mind prison, a trap, that will make every PVP experience a nauseating nightmare. It's not about scoring points...It's more about telling a compelling story, win or lose. Both you and your opponent call your own hits, and it can't be forced.​

What causes promising PvP stories to break down?

Lack of respect (or awareness), lack of honest communication...But sometimes it's just life kicking people in the teeth. That's why I'm grateful for any time I'm given.​

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______________________​

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All this being said, I do want to say that all of this is only true from my perspective. I can't tell other people how to write, and I won't try to. I only posted here because it seemed like honest questions were being asked, and I think it deserved a few minutes to reply. My ending notes are literally just respect and communication. Try to show your oppo that you want a story with them, not just a dub. That really, really starts with respect.

Once that's gone...It's going to be a long two weeks. I don't wish that on anyone.

 

[Srina Talon]

Kitter Bitters Joy

Take it down a few notches.

Joy...Don't quote the rules like weapons; that's one-star behavior at best. I'm not sure if you're aware, but it reads "I would tell everyone off and be disrespectful as heck" but this little site rule is holding me back.

Kitter...Breathe. Slow your roll.

Some people like long posts. Some people like short posts. Some people like funny posts, serious posts, and sad/happy posts. ALL of them are okay and 100% welcome on SWRP, but everyone is ALSO entitled to their preference.