Fanning The Flame - Dogpilie Invasions

[Kahlil Noble]

It started in the status updates, but should really be talked about here in the forums. Openly. Dogpile invasions have been a thing since I joined some years ago, and I've a feeling they've been a thing longer. When talked about, it's often met with "dont like it dont play the map game." But that's just it. It's a game. Meant to be fun for all. The current rules allow people to be jerks and it's justified with "that's how it's always been."

So why not change that? Why not actually 'fix' the system so folks can all have fun. Stop bullying that's 'legal' by the current rules.

Discuss below. It's time to actually talk about it.

 

[Darth Athora]

I mean, ICly, they make sense to me.

Not saying anyone is Nazi Germany, buuuuut sometimes you just gotta hit someone from multiple sides like some nazis. That's all I'll say on the matter.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Zahori Denko"]

Easy fix. Make invasions represent that IC.

But why make it represented OOC? Why not delay an invasion till one is done so the writers can make a better story?

 

[Darth Necrin]

This also happened a couple months ago when TJE was attacked by both TSE and CIS at the exact same time, right after TJE had announced an invasion on TSE. Clear to say, it got way to much for TJE

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Darth Necrin"]

There are plenty more examples of that. The Republic was subjected to this from the One Sith n co. It's been a thing for many years.

But how do we fix it? That's the purpose of this thread. Not throw shade at factions that have already done this. You can't change the past. How do we change the future?

 

[Darth Necrin]

I didn't write that to blame anyone, just wanted to give another example (and I wasn't here when the One Sith was a thing)

AS to how to fix this, I have no idea. Maybe get a rule that makes it possible for a faction to only be participating in a single invasion at any time? It would be problems with that too. Honestly, I don't know how it can be fixed

[member="Kahlil Zambrano"]

 

[Arage Bao]

If the community can formulate a solution that keeps the spirit of Chaos and its free-form RP intact, staff will take a look at it. This is not an invitation to start flaming each other. If that happens, we will lock the thread without hesitation.

 

[Vora Kaar]

[member="Kahlil Zambrano"], Why change it now. Why make a deal out of it now? Why should the rules be changed simply because people feel like they are being bullied? Why should the rules change when both sides are dishing out punches at one another? Why bring it up when everyone has done this in the past? The map game was made to be a "Win" and a "Lose." There was NO story in it at all when Invasions were first created. It was changed so that people who can't write PVP can still stand up to it.

The rules are fine as they are. They deserve to be a competitive avenue for those who wish to do so. If you want story, then make a Minor Faction and play your own story with your own group.

The Map Game, is whoever can get the most planets under their Influence. Who can get most ground the fastest. Play any one of the majority of games now, where there is a PVP element. You have to fight to earn your way. No story, no extras. The rules are just to fight one another. What you use, how you use it, is up to every different person.

The Map game, is that fight. Leave it alone. Go play your stories in your other threads. Invasions are meant to be where PVP takes a forefront instead of a backburner.

 

[Valdus Bral]

This isn't related to the current invasions or the attitude we have towards the current invasions. I'm not speaking for the Clans of Mandalore/Mandalorian Empire, just as my own personal views.



I would suggest that groups can only be invaded as many times as they can invade others. If some faction has the ability to invade twice, then they can be invaded twice. If a faction has the ability to only invade one faction at a time, they should only have to worry about one invasion in return. In order to preserve story aspects, priority should be given to counter-invasions or retaliatory invasions to the group who is being invaded. For example:

If Group A is invaded by Group B and Group A can only have one invasion against it at a time, then Group A has priority on Group B's invasion slot.

This would promote attacks, counters, etc. while still allowing alliances to matter because of the ally slots on attacking & defending, not including specific faction mandates that remove a faction's ability to receive allies on offense or defense.

 

[Vora Kaar]

If Group A is invaded by Group B and Group A can only have one invasion against it at a time, then Group B has priority on Group A's invasion slot. This would promote attacks, counters, etc. while still allowing alliances to matter because of the ally slots on attacking & defending, not including specific faction mandates that remove a faction's ability to receive allies on offense or defense.

No. This limits how many allies can be added to whichever invasion takes place. Most mandates have 5 allies. So 5 people out of the entirety of a faction are given the Okay to fight, while the rest of the faction has to sit back and twiddle their thumbs.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

I'd suggest potentially a sort of consent system following engagement.

As in, if a Faction is involved in a invasion. As the invaders or invaded, following this if they do not invade another faction or planet then they must give their consent to be invaded within the duration of the current invasion.

This way, teams don't get burnt out. This means that groups that are down for more, get more. And those smaller major factions don't just get stomped out immediately.

[member="Auberon"], the rules might be the same but chaos isn't anymore. As Chaos' social atmosphere has changed, so should the rules.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Auberon"]

Why not change it now? What's the problem with that? What's the problem with changing something wrong?

Did it happen before? Yep. Should it of changed then? Yup. But it didn't then. We can't fix the past. I already stated that in the OP. But we can fix the now.

So why leave the now as an Avenue for folks to take punches at each other for OOC things instead of making it about the IC? As I stated, the IC can easily represent "oh hey we're getting beat on on multiple fronts" without the need to dogpile OOC invasions to overwhelm a faction a majority of people dont like.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

I'd suggest potentially a sort of consent system following engagement.

As in, if a Faction is involved in a invasion. As the invaders or invaded, following this if they do not invade another faction or planet then they must give their consent to be invaded within the duration of the current invasion.

This way, teams don't get burnt out. This means that groups that are down for more, get more. And those smaller major factions don't just get stomped out immediately.

[member="Auberon"], the rules might be the same but chaos isn't anymore. As Chaos' social atmosphere has changed, so should the rules.

That makes a lot of sense, actually. Consent has proven an issue in the past as people will delay an answer, so if there's no invasion ongoing I think it would be good to do the 7 day announcement.

But while you have an active invasion you have to concentrate to another. Otherwise it's done after the first one is concluded.

 

[Darth Bellum]

First of all - Charge yo goddamn phone.

Secondly (On a more serious note) - I have always considered invasions to have been far more for IC reasons than OOC reason, so dogpiling invasions never really seemed much of a concern to me unless they were clearly just made completely off of OOC reasoning as opposed to IC ones. While I cannot speak to what happened during the One Sith/Galactic Republic incidents, I can speak a bit to the time the Jen'ari were swarmed by invasions. During that time there were two issues that resulted in them being hit by the CIS and TSE, both of which were wholeheartedly IC reasons; They declared an invasion on CIS held Kamino to which they responded with a retaliatory invasion, which ICly makes a whole lot of sense considering the CIS is much larger and can afford to throw a counter offensive back at them while still being able to hold their own. Then the TSE joined in because an IC opportunity was seen to hit those they viewed as heretics from another front, with the intention of wiping them out. Was it driven by OOC reasoning? Maybe just a little bit on behalf of Vyrassu picking a fight with everyone for whatever reason, but I for one and many others were given more than enough IC reasoning to warrant attacking them at the same time as the CIS. It's just a strategically sound move to jump a common enemy, why wouldn't anyone with a modicum of sense not seize that opportunity?

With the current invasion season I see no difference to the time as the Jen'ari. The UCM declared an invasion against the SJO, the CIC has more than enough IC reasoning to hate the UCM because they were led to believe the daughter of Graf was killed by Mandalorians (Even if she wasn't killed she was still severely wounded as a result), and the CIS saw an opportunity to strike at one of the few enemies they have left on the Map.

-

I know you made a remark on it before, but I still stand by the belief that if you are not actively ready to defend your territory on the Map as a Major Faction, you have no business staying on the map. IC wars aren't stopped because people decide they are tired, they either result in the subjugation of the enemy or their complete and utter annihilation. If you want to have some sort of 'time of peace' then go do some politic threads seeking armistice rather than pointing fingers and crying OOC foul. This is one of the caveats to being on the map and one that shouldn't be amended. My only comment on this going forward for any Major Faction or one looking to make a Major Faction is make friends with everyone and don't piss off the others who have big friends. Politics play a heavy hand in the map game, and it is a very slippery slope.

 

[Vora Kaar]

[member="Tathra Khaeus"], Nah. More people are sensitive and want to feel like they won. Everyone gets a trophy instead of having clear winners, and clear losers. If you lose an Invasion you lose a planet. Once you become a Major faction, you submit yourself to losing. You enter the game, so now you play. Go over the past few months where there has been IC settings for how all four of the current factions involved in the recent salt storm, and you will see how the ME/UCM pushed others away, and made it clear they wanted a fight. Now that they have a fight, on multiple fronts, they get upset, or someone gets upset for them. No. The Map Game is where people to go find out if they are good. If not, then you lose. Start a new faction, go somewhere else, or move on.

[member="Kahlil Zambrano"], Same sentiment for you. This is not bullying, this is not a pile up. This is massive factions playing by the rules of the game. They are playing the "meta" of the game. The MAP game. Where Invasions are King, where you win or you lose. Changing it for whatever you happen to propose to be "better" will only send Chaos into a phase where Invasions will no longer matter. Invasions are supposed to be the one place where you can PVP.

I play the map game for War. I play the map game to attack others to take control of a planet. If I attack some one, I want to win. Why? Because that is the purpose of the Map game. Not making stories.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Kor Vexen"]

Once again, the IC can be written as if there are multiple invasions happening at the same time. It can be represented by the writing.

But why force it on the OOC? What is the specific advantage to forcing multiple invasions at the same time when it could just as easily be written as such IC between separate invasions that take place one after the other?

 

[Kuzo]

The admin team is keeping an eye here and I want to add one additional thing:

Whatever changes, if any, are made to this system, will not affect already declared invasions. To be crystal clear on this matter.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

[member="Auberon"]

A major faction only needs 7 writers to exist. Should we get rid of that rule because clearly it should be more because of the dogpile?

All I'm suggesting is it gets taken more IC then out. Instead of using "Obviously everyone would attack IC so now we're going to force multiple stories on you OOC to burn you out" why not "You're fighting a war on multiple fronts. It takes place over separate threads that occur back to back. And, write."

Explain to me why that's so bad. It's been ignored thus far in favor of "this is how it is."

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

[member="Auberon"] Nah right back at you. You submit yourself to losing, but that doesn't excuse poor sportsmanship. Sure there have been IC reasoning's for all of this, but its all propagated by OOC salt and drama.

The Map Game is where people to go find out if they are good. If not, then you lose. Start a new faction, go somewhere else, or move on.

This is honestly, bizarre to me. What is being good? Spending months of prep time and having the most writers? Having the most approachable faction with the most lax entry so that you have more cannon fodder? Being aligned with all the other most powerful factions so you can burn out your opponents?

This isn't good. Playing like this, isn't good. It's like if, for example you use the latest powerful weapon in a game after an update. This doesn't make you best, not by a mile. The system should be rewarding to both small and large, not every faction type can even be a post machine. This has nothing to do with being 'good'.

 

[Darth Bellum]

Poor sportmanship during war. I'm sure the folks at Pearl Harbor or Poland would have wished the enemy were good sports.