Suggestion Factory Development Threads

[Tefka]

Lots of people not aware of dev threads these days. They used to be required roleplay threads, used like “research”, for factory submission.

the admins are discussing subjects that include dev threads rn so im gonna do a hit piece by involving the community in a conversation we never really had back in the day. We dont really mind dev threads, and I feel like I speak for the majority here. Majority, stay with me for a second, I know you don’t like being told how to feel but bare with me.

We dont mind dev threads or roleplaying to progress our development of factory items. In fact, we actually like the idea because it gives us more reasons to solo and develop factory stuff and gives us great reasons to progress creations inside the RP with the RP. We actually love roleplaying, we actually love progression, and we actually love validation. That validation part is important, and where the Factory Judge comes into play the most.

Except the Factory Judges ruined dev threads when they existed years back. They turned them into arbitrary goal posts, and the goal posts moved for seemingly no reason other than the FJ excercising their power to move them. “Yeah i need 20 more posts in your dev thread”, “yeah i need 10 more posts if you want stealth.” There was no baseline, there never could be a baseline, its all imaginary and the FJ was often inventing more arbitrary work for a writer just to justify their position as an FJ. And we aint stupid, we knew thats what it had devolved into, because providing us actual feedback and suggestions was work. Telling us to pad a thread with a handful more posts was easy.

What is successful the most in this community? Not Judges telling us to post more, we know that. The most successful stuff is stuff like Doms, Junctions, faction threads, first reply threads. Simple mechanisms that give us reasons to come together.

Dev threads can easily come back. We want to DEVELOP, sure. We want to progress. But at our pace, not some random moderator telling us to add on 10 more posts to a story they aint reading, for no goddamn reason other than to make us do it. Make Dev Junctions. Make Dev First Replies. Have FJs support and help us come up with more ideas like they were meant to, not gatekeep and demand post padding.

 

[Tefka]

And I think the Factory team today is much different than it was 5 years ago. I think they could easily adapt to a newer more encouraging environment for dev threads, to make it feel like a progressive thread for ideas instead of the chore it became.

 

[Valery Noble]

A lot of my factory items are personal things to my character that originate from long private threads I've written. So I've definitely always liked the idea of bringing things to factory that already showed up IC and I just want to add more specifics to it in the factory.

If they work like that, where it actually feels it's about the story and not just putting in unnecessary "work" on a roleplay forum I joined as a hobby, then I don't mind dev threads.

Not sure if it's always a necessary thing but I'm not sure if every factory sub in the past even required one? If I'm making a sub for a basic af pistol with nothing special to it, I prolly won't feel like doing a development thing for it

 

[Tefka]

Personally, dev threads shouldnt be a requirement. The Factory should continue to operate as it does now and if you hate the idea, you should never HAVE to do them and they should never feel pay2win like the crowd that is doing dev threads gets more perks.

They should be voluntary and they should make ME WANT to take part in them, not the other way around.

I think we could easily accomplish this.

 

[Valery Noble]

Personally, dev threads shouldnt be a requirement. The Factory should continue to operate as it does now and if you hate the idea, you should never HAVE to do them and they should never feel pay2win like the crowd that is doing dev threads gets more perks.

They should be voluntary and they should make ME WANT to take part in them, not the other way around.

I think we could easily accomplish this.

Yeah this is how I feel about it too. Maybe a dedicated "Development" prefix for threads that center around that stuff could be an option to draw attention to it.

 

[Gatz Derrevar]

If it's for something integral to a character's current story, something with a payoff—like the construction of someone's first lightsaber—this sounds like a good way to hype things up and build a story.

But if it's for every item that someone wants to add to the factory—like a jetpack that's really only there to add a fun layer to combat encounters, not for any real narrative purpose—then making someone roleplay threads to justify creating that before they can use it only forces them to push off the threads they actually want to write: the threads where they already have said jetpack.

But when you make that a requirement, you turn it into work, not fun. I'm not here to be told what I have to write (and it does sound like you're addressing this with your mention of arbitrary goal posts). I'm here to write what I wanna write.

Edit: I wrote this post while you were writing your post about how dev threads shouldn't be a requirement.

 

[Arla Rodarch]

Dev threads for a sword? Maybe not.

Dev threads for a sword that can cut the fabric of reality and is made of indestructible force imbued rare material? Yeah! Encourage that.

 

[Ravenfire]

Yeah I like the idea of bringing dev threads back as an optional part of factory, much like how factory and codex are optional parts of the board. It would make creating tech and the like more fun while allowing people to flesh out ideas fully.

And I for one am also of the mind set that because it will be voluntary you don't necessarily gain anything extra from it beyond just having done it and feeling cool that you did this. Because anything beyond that like dev threads give you an extra point would be coming back into the old days territory of the FJ's having to judge the dev threads as well, while also forcing everyone to do it, if you want to balance your gear to the standard everyone else has.

So all for the idea of bring back dev threads, lets keep them voluntary and lets not stack anything else to it other than its neat to have a sword you rp made become a tool that was then built through factory so it can be used elsewhere.

 

[Hailyn]

1. what purpose does a development thread serve other than to make a factory judge feel more comfortable approving something that they feel is OP?
2. does this restrict more subs/items in subs because the factory team/site staff feel like restricted/regulated items are being made in too large a quantity?
3. does #2 (if yes) actually necessitate the use of development threads other than to satisfy some arbitrary belief that some things should be less prevalent (and ergo used as a means of discouraging the use of certain things in people's RP)
4. what does "adding development threads" add to the approval process that the current approval process does not already take into consideration?

for full context I was a factory judge during the infamous era of dev threads, and an rpj before, during, and after the transition process away from them so I'm viewing this discussion through the lens of someone who was initially for development threads when this topic came up for vote the last time around when dev threads were axed and later became vehemently anti-dev thread ever since realizing how much of a crutch they were for judges to use whenever they felt like something wasn't balanced "enough" but couldn't figure out (or didn't want to) ask for changes to the sub.

edit: read the follow-up post about it not being something that should be required, so my #5 question would be what function would development threads even serve in the factory if they don't do anything that would change the outcome of the approval process beyond the way things are now?

 

[John Locke]

Hey hey…As Factory Admin I just wanted to throw in a little bit of my perspective since the idea that spawned this discussion was mine.

The old school Dev Threads were mostly phased out by the time I joined the site. My goal, like Tefka mentioned, is to facilitate RP. Cool stuff. The stuff we're all here to do and enjoy. This version would be significantly different from the original.

Some Notes:

• There will be no "goal posts" arbitrarily shifting.
• FJ's will not be counting posts nor demanding anything more than what is provided. The intent is an honor system because we can't always predict what threads will take off and which threads will fizzle out.
• There will be Factory Related benefits to members providing Dev Threads (In any form – Dominions/Faction Threads/Etc..) worked into a new system.
• They will not be a requirement AT ALL, nor even currently intended to be included in submissions.

I just don't want anyone getting nervous thinking we're about to throw back on a decade of progress. The discussion in the back room is to try and allow inventive ways for your hard work to come together and support stories.

I can see that people have some questions, so I'll try to assuage any concerns as best as I can. Please be aware we're still discussing the topic now and haven't come to any firm decisions but our intent is purely to enhance the factory without adding anymore onus to it.

Dev threads, as I currently see them, will NOT impact submissions on the board at all, and they will not be required to have a submission approved. Factory judges will not be assigning dev threads to writers, this is a strictly voluntary thing to enhance the factory experience, not to weigh you down, if you don't wanna take part you don't have to. The rules as to the limits and ratings of a submission will not be changing.

 

[Junko Ike]

I always enjoyed dev threads, gave you a chance to not just develop an item but also a chance to test it out in rp and fine tune it or work out the kinks. It is what I have been using the massive solo thread for with Atrisian codex submissions and easily dev threads could come back as a way to improve upon much stronger items.

 

[Elias Edo]

this is a strictly voluntary thing to enhance the factory experience

I like that, a lot. I came long after dev threads, so I’m unsure what kind of submissions they were required for. But I like that they would be optional to enhance the factory. I personally don’t sub things until after my character has created or discovered something, and that typically happens in private threads or as side things in faction stories - so I suppose I already do dev threads, for myself? Heh heh

Valery Noble mentioned including a Development thread prefix to designate those stories as such. That would be an awesome way to hype it up, encourage others to dabble with it and collaborate to create things IC without forcing anyone to do it.

 

[Tathra Khaeus]

Sounds like a great idea to me. As long as the premise of it not being intrusive holds.

 

[Tefka]

I think lisbot hit me with the old “why even do them if they dont do anything”. This was a pretty common take, and expectation.

And i’m heavily advising the powers that be on the website, dont pretend this is a video game. Dont get a question from Lisbot like “what is the point” and feel like you need to have a concrete answer. No matter how credentialed, how veteran. Mainly because I’m in your corner currently telling you, the answer is pretty simple, from the guy who invented all the stuff:

The point is to extend RP. To not ask for more poste, but to make writers want to post more. To give more options to keep writing more, without taking away from others experience.

It’s not easy to achieve this without getting it twisted again but it could be very fun.

 

[Kassogtha Cthylla]

So… this sounds like we’ll just be getting a new “Development” thread prefix to play with, which can be connected to submissions in a cool way but is not required to get subs approved. Is that more or less correct?

 

[Tefka]

This is a suggestion thread lol

 

[Valery Noble]

I stand by my suggestion for a development prefix. Not that it's necessary, but I feel like it can draw attention to the idea of development type stories

 

[Tefka]

I dont think anyone attacked your stance Valery Noble but thank you for doubling down.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

But what's the point of a dev thread if they don't actually do anything? I'm not for beinging back dev threads as requirements, but the current thread types all have a purpose. Invasions are pvp map stuff, first replies are public join but first come first serve, bounty are specific bounty stuff.

What would a dev thread prefix cover that the other types don't, especially if it's not going to be a mandatory thing? You can just link public/private threads of any kind for 'dev threads' so why would it need it's own prefix?

 

[Hailyn]

I think lisbot hit me with the old “why even do them if they dont do anything”. This was a pretty common take, and expectation.

And i’m heavily advising the powers that be on the website, dont pretend this is a video game. Dont get a question from Lisbot like “what is the point” and feel like you need to have a concrete answer. No matter how credentialed, how veteran. Mainly because I’m in your corner currently telling you, the answer is pretty simple, from the guy who invented all the stuff:

The point is to extend RP. To not ask for more poste, but to make writers want to post more. To give more options to keep writing more, without taking away from others experience.

It’s not easy to achieve this without getting it twisted again but it could be very fun.

I wasn't asking what the point of it, I was asking what it would do. You gave us a "we're talking about bringing dev threads back" but without any context. John Locke 's answer was perfectly satisfactory. Dev threads as a means to gatekeep materials/"powerful" subs don't actually motivate people to RP, they motivate people to avoid the factory and just not submit their stuff until they absolutely need to - which it is now clear was not what the goal was.

I'm not really sure what expectation you had, in terms of reaction, when people see "we're talking about bringing back dev threads" when for longer than most people (myself included) have been on the site they were 10 post minimum threads that were required in order to use something like, for example, beskar in a submission, and then completely neglected to go into any detail on the context of what development threads would be for. If all is being used for is as a little "this is some backstory/development on how this came into being/someone's possession" I really don't think anyone would be opposed to it existing, particularly if it can't be used by factory judges to say "this is too strong, give me some development and you can get approval otherwise tone it down" because the last several years have proven you don't need development threads to balance subs and should not use them to do so.

I liked John Locke 's post and assumed it would be taken as a "this is a satisfactory answer to my questions", I like what he said and the implications of how development threads would be used if they were added back in.

To be abundantly clear, I wasn't arguing that "it shouldn't exist if they don't do anything", I was asking questions to try to get a clearer picture on what the goal of dev threads would be so I could decide whether or not I'd still be opposed to them and you took my skepticism as opposition.