Public Does the Force have a will?

[Jacen Nimdok]

I wanna see you nerds fight!

Nah jk, keep it civilized. But I do want to know what your characters (or just you if you prefer, why not) think of the Force. Does it have a will, or is it just a tool? Would you consider it inherently benevolent, or is it more sinister? Are you nihilistic in your view of the Force, a pragmatist, etc? And of course, tell us why.

... I’m supposed to give my opinion first, aren’t I?

Nimdok doesn’t know. He’s a guy who likes to know things, so that unknowability is disturbing to him. He wrestles with the Force both as a concept to be understood and as an entity to be reconciled with. He is inclined to believe it has some kind of will, since it seeks balance, shows him visions sometimes, and allowed him to cheat death, but whether or not it is benevolent or uncaring is a mystery. He doesn’t know if he should “trust in the Force”, but he sorely doubts it is malicious in nature, and he does derive some comfort and reassurance from knowing that it is always with him.

A counter to this view would be AMCO , who believed the Force had no will and was just a tool. Any “will” it seemed to have was just an amalgamation of the wills and desires of living beings that were part of the Force. I know this because I asked his author one time, and I’m using it as an example because I know Adrian is disinclined to want to participate in this discussion. Mostly because he is dead.

lol

 

[Subject 648 Slipknot]

If it did then would I be able to do this?

Yeah, I didn't think so

 

[Jacen Nimdok]

Subject 648 Slipknot

Every day we stray further from the Force.

 

[Aayla Shan]

I think so. Rather, I think its constantly seeking a balance. My case in point would be the whole Order 66 fiasco. I'm going to say something that most people aren't a big fan of...

ANAKIN SKYWALKER BROUGHT BALANCE TO THE FORCE!

There, I said it... Sure, he murdered children, and countless Jedi, but the reality is it was necessary; at the time the Jedi had dozens of followers. If not into the hundreds. There was what in that period... Four Sith? I remember as a youngling watching that movie I immediately related that prophecy with order 66. The Jedi were too ignorant to realize the only way Anakin could bring balance to the force was killing them off.

Even more, from how its written, the Force literally warned them of that. Grandmaster Yoda just had a tendency to be blind to these kinds of things...

Aayla is a fully indoctrinated Jedi, though she still uses tech and trinkets. Not out of necessity, but for distinction. She believes that if she puts her trust in the Force, it will bless her. That being said, The Force cannot be all benevolent, or all sinister. It must have balance; going back to the prophecy of the Chosen one who would "bring balance to the Force" ( I mean really, think about that saying... Imagine being in a temple filled with Jedi, and finding a kid that was supposed to bring balance to the Force. Basic mathematics could've saved the day).

I think that the Force IS a tool, that can be warped to fit ones will, but its also a sort of omnipotent entity of its own, seeking an eternal balance. By any means. And I think that within that "By any means" is where the Force can be considered sinister (Back to that prophecy).

 

[Jsc]

I once saw a stream of water in the middle of a deep canyon running uphill. Cutting deep swaths through the treacherous landscape. And as a small boy I wondered to myself. If it knew where it was going?

Mm. That will always be the Force to me. The miracle you witness but don't quite yet understand. Sure. They can explain it to you. Tell you how science makes it work, tell you how very natural it is, or how that it's been around that way for a thousand years or more. But to actually see it with your own eyes and not be able to comprehend it. Mm. It just kind of makes you wonder what else is out there. Making physics all weird.

I don't think that stream knew where it was going. No. And I don't think the Force has a will of it's own either. Nah. But I do think that sometimes life has a funny way of bending all the rules right in front of you and then telling you it's always been that way in the first place.

 

[Auteme]

I believe it's covered on the Wookieepedia page on the Force itself -- the paradox of it is that it has will and intent on its own yet still requires the will of another to channel it. It's a still, clear lake to draw from, yet also a rushing river over which none have control.

Auteme probably subscribes to that theory. She likes free will, but also acknowledges the fact that she has almost no control over most of the things in the galaxy -- the things she is only connected to by the Force.

As curious as she is, I think the Force is the one thing that she doesn't want to understand, just in case it is, indeed, the answer to all things (another paradox). As an eternal optimist and goody-two-shoes she believes that when the Force does enact its will it is always doing good. Paired with that is the belief that life is inherently good.

Some people talk about balance; Auteme doesn't necessarily disagree, but believes the idea that good comes with bad in equal measure is wrong, that somehow balancing the Force means constantly undoing good through equal evil. The Force is life, the Force is all things -- there's already 'good' and 'bad', through life and death. It's already balanced. Perhaps the idea is that the Force, time, and space are in some way connected.

The idea that the Force is evil is equally flawed in her view. The galaxy is enormous, and the Force seems to reign over all of it. If it were truly evil, wouldn't it have destroyed everything by now? The Yuuzhan Vong, the Sith, Abeloth, whatever else; yet, the galaxy continues. Life continues. With life, good.

As for the idea that the Force is a tool, she'd point to whoever the SW equivalent of Albert Camus is. I'm no expert on his work, but his school of philosophy is called Absurdism. It's meant to be a way to confront the absurdness of the world -- and in some way, the truth that we will never completely understand it; that we exist between 'God' and animals, knowing that there is no absolute truth in some higher power and yet not being one with the world as an animal -- thus leading a more full life. Imposing the idea of the Force being a tool is trying to limit and give meaning to something beyond understanding. It doesn't resolve the fact that, despite being a 'tool', it's a tool in a universe that isn't understood, a tool that isn't understood in itself.

That being said, I adore exploring all of those different views. In my own heart the Force will always just be magic and mysticism, and that's just fine. Trying to explain it, in any way, will bring about a different interpretation than anyone else's.

Great discussion! Can't wait to read more people's opinions.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

This is one of my favorite questions probably because of my weird opinions on it. I believe that yes the Force does have a will. Intent? Maybe. I definitely don't believe it's an intelligence or some kind of abstract entity. Star Wars themes are obviously grounded more in eastern mysticism than a western spiritual belief system. It's for sure some kind of supernatural energy field.

Is it a tool? Absolutely not. This is where I acknowledge that I am in the fringe. I believe darkside corruption is real, and the parable of Anakin Skywalker's fall is the norm rather than a darkest timeline exception. Embracing Sith philosophy is a path to easy power and unfettered passions, but you WILL kill everyone you love and destroy everything around you. Yoda wasn't wrong, basically.

Now I get that Legends has pushed the notion that lightside darkside is just a human construct through which we view free will. It's also probably the interpretation that works better for RPing more complex darksiders. I don't pretend that the sum of evidence backs my take, it's just the interpretation that I enjoy the most.

As far as my characters, like everyone else they have different views. Zark probably comes the closest to reflecting my own opinions only with a little extra by fire be purged on top.

 

[Cotan Sar'andor]

Zark San Tekka

This makes me think of that bit you mentioned last night that I went on about far longer than I probably ever should have (but, really, what's new?), because for the most part I have the same view, to a certain extent.

Pursuing power through the Dark Side necessitates that you pick up the villain ball. Sure, you'll get exponentially stronger, but in return it's going to strip everything away from you that makes you you until you're just another person pursuing power for power's sake, no matter what your original motivations were. You might go into it wanting to keep somebody safe, trying to understand your enemy, or to save someone you love from dying, sure, but it'll feed back into every negative emotion and thought you have in the process, and if you give yourself to it fully, you'll abandon every initial motivation because power is intoxicating.

Maybe you'll get lucky and killing your brother will snap you out of it just in time for all your former friends and your ex to strip the Force from you, or you'll never be able to give yourself over fully and never get as powerful as you could be because you just can't get rid of that final shred of humanity until eventually your son helps pull you back from the edge by getting well acquainted with some high voltage readings.

This basically all ties back to the whole post I made in "how does your character perceive the Force" and that bit about being attuned to the Dark Side means that you're pursuing power over understanding and the storm (the Force overall) is going to shred you apart as it continues to follow its will and direction. (So, yeah, readers who are going "can you get to the point already, you long-winded old fart", it has a will in a sense, but it's not really the sentient sort of guiding hand or commanding presence that such a term normally implies in the thoughts of those of us who actually can think.)

But then, the question I have is what you think of the idea of what "balance" is? I know there are people that assume balance has to mean full light side, but even from some of the clips I've seen or stories I've read of George himself talking about balance in the Force, it doesn't seem to mesh that way (not that Legends ever really meshed fully with his ideas, considering he ignored it entirely, and I doubt the new stuff will follow that line either because obvious reasons). I also don't really follow the view that it is connecting to both the light side and dark side equally, or the idea that there is neither a light side nor a dark side, but just that being balanced means treating both sides with caution; you don't have to be light or dark to use the Force, you don't have to dip into either the light or dark to use the Force, and if you are going to dip into either you have to be super careful not to throw yourself off the track.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

A lot of it comes down to how you and your character see the Dark Side.

If you believe the Dark Side is a parasitic entity which has a will like Satan to corrupt people then sure.

But if you believe the Dark Side is just the natural result of one using the Force for selfish means then you'd be less inclined to think that way.

Honestly, I much prefer the latter, since if it's the former you're robbing agency and giving excuses to someone who does bad things.
Don't get me started on redemption in Star Wars.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

Cotan Sar'andor

The classic Jedi viewpoint would most likely be something along the lines of all light yeah. I'm not 100% convinced of that. It raises some classic 'problem of evil' questions. If the Force has intent and it is Good then what's the deal with this darkside thing anyway? Is it a necessary side effect of the Force's existence? That has some troubling implications. Is it a part of the Force's design? Also super troubling.

To answer your question I'm not entirely sure that balance in the Force is a desirable outcome. Balance in the Force is a lot like balance in life, the good and the bad, only elevated by a powerful galactic energy source. I toy with the idea that maybe these endless religious wars ARE the Force maintaining balance. It's like the universe course correcting, regardless of the collateral damage.

Our views are pretty similar, I'm just a little more fundamentalist than you are. Where for you corruption requires a darkside 'attunement' and ideological belief, for me merely tapping into the power source even with the best of intentions is the first step on a road to nearly inevitable destruction. So to answer a question either you or Adrian posed to me the other day, 'what if you throw lightning to save a friend?' It doesn't matter. Next time you do it you might very well throw lightning AT your friend because they are just jealous of your power and glory obviously they're going to ruin everything and oh no what have you done.

 

[Vytal Noctura]

"When you wake in the morning, did you will yourself to do so? Or was there a desire in the void which thought simply, 'now?' And when you rose did you stop to consider why you did so? Question the path you would take and if doing so would be better than doing nothing at all? Or did you, being awake to the world around you, move forward to see what a new day -- the first day -- would bring?

"Do the moons, and the planets, and the stars that your Science describe with such precision that hyperspace travel is possible have a will? Do the beasts, the birds, and the celestial creatures have wills? Does it matter? Are you an entity that derives its entire existence from what something else desires, or do you rise in the morning to find a new day's purpose? To walk a new road -- see new things -- think new thoughts. Do not gnash your teeth fretful another may have shared many of the same steps. They are not you, and The Force experiences the world through your eyes... so long as you do not willfully seal them.

"Does The Force have a Will? Yes. It is that you live. What other purpose is there in life? Had it desired a garden of lifeless statues that would be all that would exist. Yet, here we are. Do not waste the time that has been given to you -- it matters not the path you travel, so long as you take it."

- Nightmother Vytal Noctura
​

The Force is a force of nature. It is energy, but it is also Will given form. There is no good and no evil, no light and no darkness inherent to The Force. It is literally what you make of it.

If you become consumed by your passions you end up as crazed Dark Sider blinded to the world around them and seeing only what they wish to see. On the other hand, if you give yourself entirely to the pursuit of stillness/peace or a self-sacrifice for others you may uplift the world at your own expense (lacking the ability to 'horde' time in pursue many things in life including a mate/partner). The Force does not force a person down these paths, but it will fuel the travel. A balance within -- a harmony of the soul and with the world -- would produce the greatest gains, but is the hardest to obtain.

It is the embodiment of the idea that life is the universe gazing upon itself to understand itself. Naturally, we don't always come to a consensus and struggle to make decisions or anticipate the consequences of those decisions. The Force is no different. The voices (people) within The Force can stand at odds, but just because there is opposition does not diminish the pursuit of exploration itself.

That said, a Witch always needs to take care The Force's curiosity does not run amok. There are creatures that would tear everything down -- that threaten the Balance of Creation. Sometimes a helping hand rebalancing the scales doesn't hurt, but that doesn't mean a Witch has to police every wrong committed in the galaxy either.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a brew to stir. Patience, Ingredients, Diligence, and Consistency...

 

[Cotan Sar'andor]

A lot of it comes down to how you and your character see the Dark Side.

If you believe the Dark Side is a parasitic entity which has a will like Satan to corrupt people then sure.

But if you believe the Dark Side is just the natural result of one using the Force for selfish means then you'd be less inclined to think that way.

Honestly, I much prefer the latter, since if it's the former you're robbing agency and giving excuses to someone who does bad things.
Don't get me started on redemption in Star Wars.

Less of a will to corrupt people and more just so powerfully intoxicating that it makes you want to keep pursuing it more and more and more, losing a lot of yourself to the addiction and the constant search for more power, more control, more anything.

Zark San Tekka That would have been Adrian, but yeah, there's a spot where we'll differ. Going for anything that necessitates tapping into the dark side should be a last resort, and it's definitely dangerous, but I wouldn't go for the "nearly inevitable" outlook, and neither would Cotan, given he's the character most akin to his writer. Definitely agreed on the aspect of the Force just course correcting, to an extent; it'll always find balance, somehow, but I don't think causing war would be a way to do it. Kinda like in the whole "perceives the Force" thing I linked to. Jedi and Sith especially fall out of balance with the storm overall, and that causes the most problems, but even those who stick to light or dark and still coexist with the storm and follow its will are going to be held in balance by it.

The visible war problem is mortals trying to exercise their will over things and the disagreements that arise, but why would an eternal, all-encompassing sort of energy field non-entity that still has a perceivable, understandable will need such a fast and short-sighted method to correct the problem? Balance will ultimately result no matter what, and the wars can feed into that being achieved, but I (and my characters) wouldn't take the Kreia-esque "Insidious Force" viewpoint and chalk them up to the Force itself.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

Cotan Sar'andor

You're assuming a level of awareness or consideration I don't believe is there. Like you, I think of the Force as having more of an elemental quality. I don't think it sees problems or solutions. When there is an imbalance of light or dark the Force inevitably the other side grows stronger. War is the eventual result as the weaker side seeks to reassert it's dominance, like you said that's a sentient's way of dealing with the changing supernatural tides if you will.

I don't see it as insidious, but it is brutal. Like nature. It's not good or bad. It just doesn't care. It doesn't have the capacity to care. Maybe that is a Kreiaesque way of looking at it.

There is certainly something to be said about it removing agency or responsibility from a darksider for their actions. To be fair I don't believe that they are in communion with the darkside's mouth of Sauron. Their free will is intact they can make other choices. I just think the darkside subtly influences the wielder's behavior to the point where they don't WANT to make other choices. Their motivations before embracing the darkside become alien. Sith ideology is just a codification of warped Jedi teachings.

Again I concede that this is somewhat reductionist towards darkside characters. The problem there is that I think the free will human construct argument reduces classical Jedi ideology in much the same way. Personally I prefer the Jedi as badass monks guarding all life and hope in the galaxy rather than a hypocritical religious institution perpetuating the same war of belief as the Sith based on flawed interpretations of a power they fundamentally misunderstand.

 

[Jacen Nimdok]

Zark San Tekka Cotan Sar'andor

Yes... YESSS... everything is proceeding as I have foreseen... the nerds are discussing!

But seriously, Zark is right. Kreia didn’t see the Force as malicious so much as uncaring and callous. In a way that did make it evil in her eyes, or at least not something to be trusted the way the Jedi taught it should be.

To be honest, the issue comes from seeing this as some kind of great betrayal. But it isn’t. The Force is a thing that has always been. We’ve attached our own concepts of morality and empathy to it, which is illogical and doesn’t really work. The Force probably doesn’t “see” (for lack of a better term, I’m not stressing that it has a will or consciousness here) all these wars and the struggle for balance as truly destructive, and certainly not “brutal” or “dark”. Why? Because it all gets re-absorbed back into the greater whole. You die, you become one with the Force.

 

[Cotan Sar'andor]

You're assuming a level of awareness or consideration I don't believe is there.

It's more elemental, but it still has a will of sorts; I just wouldn't chalk the wars up to the Force maintaining balance the way you phrased it: "I toy with the idea that maybe these endless religious wars ARE the Force maintaining balance. It's like the universe course correcting, regardless of the collateral damage." Everything that exists will ultimately end up in the state it'll be no matter what any of us do, the tides will change no matter what any of us do. Phrasing it as though the wars are caused by the Force, and not by sentients reacting poorly to the metaphysical tides, is veering more in the realm of Kreia and "the Force just wants us all to fight and die all the time." The great energy field of the universe doesn't need to use war to maintain itself in balance when ultimately everything will be still anyways.

Now that we've probably exhausted everything we can pull out of the realm of semantics...

I definitely view the Dark Side as being like a drug. You get addicted, you want more, and if you give in to the addiction you'll keep losing yourself to it. Free will is still there, but once you start down that path, forever it will dominate your destiny. I just don't think that domination is in the realm of giving into it and going full dark side; I need only look to my own father for an example of a guy whose life is always going to be full of the struggle not to veer back towards alcoholism or any of the drugs he used to use when he was younger, and there's a lot of other addicts that are in the same boat.

Jacen Nimdok As I recall, the view was "sinister, yet indifferent." It didn't care at all for the lives it consumed in the way one of us wouldn't care for the ants that died if we were to introduce to rival colonies to each other, or the way we wouldn't care about the white knight if the black bishop took its square. Jedi, Sith, and everybody else were pawns in the game of balance, and that was why she wanted to figure out how to kill the Force and remove it from the galaxy entirely: So that sentient lives would no longer be subject to its will, and all the constant fighting and war that it engendered to keep itself in balance. Malicious, because it directly and intentionally caused harm and made people suffer and die to keep itself in balance, while still just not caring about them whatsoever; "all things exist to serve my will."

The difference between it being a natural thing and wars resulting from mortals unable to deal with the shifting of the tides and the "Insidious Force" view is intent and awareness; the Kreia view was that the Force itself was an intelligent, conscious entity.

 

[Ellie Mors]

I don't think it really matters, because the force is whatever the author writing the story wants it to be.

How do I interpret/prefer to interpret an in-universe reality of what the force is? Take entropy - it is a very real phenomena, an inevitability, but it isn't malicious nor is it benevolent. It just is. Things will reach entropy at some point, people may try to apply a moralistic or ethical view on it, may attribute a conscious will or see ways to exploit it for personal gain, but at the end of the day it is none of the things people attribute to it.

It just is. A natural law of our universe, and in the very same way I see the force. It exists for the universe (the Star Wars universe, or I guess the galaxy since we don't know anything about stuff beyond the galactic disc and its small satellites) to exist in the way it does just like entropy and gravity exist/happen in our own. I suppose energy would be a more apples to apples comparison, because of the nature of it being a source of something people can make use of, but I don't subscribe to the notion that the force is a thing so much so that it is the reason behind why things or people can do the things they do.

I think canon, both the "old" canon and the "new" one (EU and Disney/movie canon), make strides to try to imply that the force is just a fact of nature and not a deity of sorts, or some kind of sentient pool of power/energy, while leaving enough wiggle room to cast doubt on that implication and let people view it in a way that is much more personal than being straight up told what the force is, so it kind of just winds up going back to what I said at the start of this reply.

 

[Zark San Tekka]

Cotan Sar'andor

Forgive the loose phrasing. I think we mostly understand each other, although again the Force isn't 'using' anything. The wars aren't the cause, they are effect. When one side spreads it's teachings sufficiently there is an 'awakening' in the Force and more potential candidates for the other alignment manifest. Something something war were declared. The Force doesn't know or care what the actual methods to bring the balance are because it doesn't operate on that level.

I'm glad you quoted that though because again this is really an idea that I toy with, not a conviction that I hold. I recognize it's a little grim, and it substitutes one kind of Jedi misunderstanding for another. Push comes to shove I suppose I believe the darkside is more probably a manifestation of the darker aspects of nature and something every force user should strive to resist more or less in the tradition of the Jedi.

Another place we might be getting mixed up is that I don't think the Force exists as a part of spacetime. So words like intent and will are sort of abstract. It can't tell you the future so much as it is connected to everything that ever happened and ever will.

 

[Cotan Sar'andor]

Zark San Tekka Yeah, the commentary on it "using" stuff and all is based on the phrasing and implied attribution of it, not on actual viewpoints. The Force maintains itself in balance no matter what; the wars are definitely an effect of that, but due to how sentients react to it, and they could always choose to react in different ways. As for whether or not it's a part of space-time, I kinda go with the view of part of Darth Plagueis's interpretations; the Force isn't part of space and time, space and time are parts of the Force. Connected to the Unifying Force aspect.

All told, the "Will of the Force" is what moves everything that is a part of it towards balance with it, in my view; it's completely passive, but ultimately implacable. Whether that's as a malicious (rather than simply negligent), sentient entity that doesn't care for mortal lives except as pawns in the game of balancing itself (yike, nope, disagree hardcore), or just as a metaphysical spiritual energy field that can still affect the real world that is both separate from and yet also a part of it, well, who knows.

Except really no Kreia's view is bad and I don't like it as a matter of principle, even if I do use it to some extent with one of my dark side characters. I have a love-hate relationship with that character in general and the fact that she was made to exist as the writer's outlet for his philosophical disagreements with how he thought the idea of the Force and its will was being presented, though Avellone's views certainly seem to have shifted a bit as time has gone by.

 

[Jacen Nimdok]

Maybe I'll write a little reply about Vergere, whose views on the Force are as interesting as Kreia's imo. But not right now.

right now I sleep

 

[Zark San Tekka]

Cotan Sar'andor

I think our disconnect in this thought experiment is the people factor, not the Force factor. Applying my super fundamentalist view of the light and dark duality, using the darkside is antithetical to the principles the Jedi strive to uphold.

You don't believe conflict is a necessary outcome. I do. I don't believe either side has any other choice to make. It's not just an ideological struggle. Allowing the darkside to flourish leads to destruction, conquest, and tyranny. The Jedi know this. The Sith are driven to destroy the Jedi because the darkside covets power to the exclusion of others.

It's a very dogmatic take on it I know. But I'm not implying that the Force is manipulating galactic politics on so granular a level. I just think the politics take care of themselves.