Question Do you think pre-determined outcomes for pvp threads are boring?

[Tefka]

Genuine question, but as the founder of Chaos I do obviously and honestly got plenty of biases and ulterior motives for bringing it up, you will go crazy trying to figure them all out so just focus on the subject at hand.

Are they?

Or do you prefer the gambling machine that is an entity like Staff, RPJs, Admins, etc.

Do me a favor and don't sleight the rules, those new rules that just got announced are staying, this is less about that and more about starting a conversation with you all. Lots of Star Peace talks 2.0 entering my ears and pre-determined outcomes are the #1 complaint when we have honest dialogue - HOWEVER.

HOWEVER.

BIG HOWEVER INCOMING WITH THAT CONTEXT.

PLEASE READ THIS THREAD IN ITS ENTIRETY AND UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT THAT HAPPENED RIGHT BEFORE THE HOWEVER.

IF YOU DON'T YOU'LL MISS THE WHOLE PREMISE AND I WILL POTENTIALLY HATE YOU OOC (REAL)

However, people still keep leaning towards pre-determined outcomes! Major Faction Owners, Faction Admins, writers etc. It's actually fairly popular, you nor I can deny it. So if the concept of writing towards a predetermined ending for a story is the problem that Star Peace brings with it, why don't we see more of these people complaining actually do something about it? Are we just impatient and really want the next #WARPOSTER-ICONIC-THIRD-GREAT-HYPERSPACE-WAR to happen already, or are you just... bored and wanna complain about something. Do we not have the energy to branch off, make our own Major Faction to go chase our own ideas? The only complaint I understand about predetermined outcomes is, I built this place on organic roleplay. I love organic roleplay. Organic roleplay, the ebb and flow of just not knowing what comes next, is the most foundational building block of Chaos.

So if you understand that too, then I understand how you could conflate it with = predetermined outcomes are bad. But I disagree. If you accept Chaos = freedom and freedom = organic, then A POSSIBLE AND EVENTUAL OUTCOME OF CONTINUAL ORGANIC RP is that a writer eventually chooses NONORGANIC RP. If the equation is organic rp = infinite possibility, then infinity possibility = eventually one possibility will be to stop the infinite possibilities. So if you support organic rp, you also have to support non-organic rp by default. PARADOX RP!

Agree? Hate it? Just want war? Wanna just post ok? Lets hear your thoughts.

And if you really love nonorganic rp go check out my droid faction im having a lot of fun
did u get that joke haha
nonorganic rp
cause its droids
fuck u it was funny

 

[Jack Sandrow]

Personally I'm of the mind where if there are two or more factions involved, having an idea of an outcome would be good. I'm wanting to almost compare it to Diplomacy, where you have a basic idea of what you might want, and other people can see what you want, but that's not necessarily how it might happen.

So in terms of predetermination.... no? But saying "our objective is to do this, if this doesn't work plan b is that, if that doesn't work plan c is over here, if here doesn't work we all try to leave."

Historically, wars of attrition & invasion have been very much "alright people we have a set goal, let's get it done" and by and large they're not announced to the enemy beforehand. Here in SWRPC I think having something similar set up should be good. As guidelines, but not a hard and fast outcome.

"We're going to take this planet by force, but if someone drops a ship on our heads well that changes things, doesn't it"

Edit: So is it boring? I mean.... no? Depends on how 'predetermined' is predetermined, I think.

 

[Tefka]

Depends on how 'predetermined' is predetermined, I think.

Hit the nail on the head for me.

We're writers, everything is predetermined if you look at it through a certain lens. I do think its potentially obstructive (and a cop out) to the conversation subject if we lean too hard on it though.

"My predetermination was only at 57%, board average is 74% predetermination, acceptable use levels per documentation are rated up to 80% predetermination so we're fine."

 

[Aculia Voland]

I do find them boring if I'm going to be 100% honest if I am a player in a particular thread, you can still find randomness and fun with your opponent in the thread but it takes the wind out of it for me somewhat knowing that no matter how well I coordinate or write or what direction the story ends up going it does not end up swaying how the thread is ultimately going to end on a larger sitewide level. That being said there are times when it is useful to have a predetermined outcome as part of a larger story being set up or other reasons so it's not like I'm 100% opposed to it. For the judging as long as I feel like the people doing so are as impartial as can be expected and can provide good, constructive feedback I prefer the up-in-the-air nature, but I'm the gambling type who likes the tension of not knowing what is going to happen.

 

[Jack Sandrow]

"Predetermination levels are within acceptable margins. Proceed with Invasion."

 

[Garou Shakti]

Hit the nail on the head for me.

We're writers, everything is predetermined if you look at it through a certain lens. I do think its potentially obstructive (and a cop out) to the conversation subject if we lean too hard on it though.

"My predetermination was only at 57%, board average is 74% predetermination, acceptable use levels per documentation are rated up to 80% predetermination so we're fine."

Personally I think the lack of a hard stat/mechanics system means that predetermination is almost built into the system. I mean lets face it a character can't die without the authors approval which means that in some way every fight is predetermined by whether and author is ok with their char dying.

 

[Jonyna Si]

As a non-faction owner-third party, it feels more natural that faction owners work to tell the story they had planned most of the time. While I understand site admins might want more of a hand in faction politics to keep things alive, from what I understand a lot of the Maw/GA/NIO conflict was facilitated mostly through the faction admins working out outcomes beforehand as a way to make a cohesive narrative.

Invasions being decided after the fact could make for a good story if there's a deadlock, or if the faction owners decide they want a more fluid story, but it feels a little too chaotic to just let every invasion be decided by the judges based on thread content just feels like it'd foster the old salt wars I keep hearing about, rather than a healthy story environment.

 

[Mellifluous Magenta]

Speaking from the perspective of a writer who enjoys collaborative writing and PvP, pre-determined invasion outcomes in and of themselves aren't boring to me. However, the implications of said outcomes and how they cause people to shift their approach to writing collaborative PvP are what really causes problems, in my view. Without judgements and categories like tension, storytelling, and drama, there's less motivation to take hits so people...just stop doing that (which is their prerogative). This also means that there are a lot more fights where people are fighting each other but at the same time nothing is happening. What I mean to say is that if people aren't taking hits, the stories never reach satisfying conclusions and instead just drag on until one or more writers stop posting.

Also, I think that the old two-week time limits for invasion judgements actually helped stories reach their conclusions, because people were motivated to post in a reasonable timeframe in order to make that deadline and for their stories to count in the judgement. Without that time limit, people don't feel the same pressure so things often end inconclusively.

Ultimately, I guess my point is that there needs to be some kind of outside pressure that makes people finish stories. I may or may not be suggesting a return to the days of the Third Imperial Civil War/Great Hyperspace War, but a certain push needs to be there that gets writers on top of things.

 

[Matsu Ike]

Really comes down to the people involved... the few times me and Ashin/Jon went into pvp it was free and see what happens.... he would make it interesting and try to tell more of a story with the fight then just swing laser sticks at each other.

With others we might have had a cool idea like with Cira or Feena in different invasion our two characters maimed each other and it went from honorable combat to free for all.

and sometimes the pvp serves in the story like with Sera where the idea was one side not fighting and the other needed to get through somethings.

Personally I dislike pvp in general and rarely partake of it unless with someone I have solid communication with throughout.

or if some group turns a one on one into an 8 v 1 and are trying to stampede them. THen might be more involved cause trying to mess with a friend

 

[Sahan Dragr]

I can go either way. I think they both have a time and place. Have a loose ending in mind and improv the way there, or just wing it and see what happens. Both are fun in their own way, so long as both sides are open to it.

 

[Gerwald Lechner]

The last invasion I am aware of was GA/Empire just before the poof. It had a less enthusiastic show from the Empire despite amazing build up.

Why? It had been determined they would lose and AFTER the NIO suffered several losses before that. This can be demoralizing to a writer base trying to swing back into things.

At the end of the day Invasions should be special. If the board wants predetermined pvp threads we have those. They’re called skirmishes. Junctions can be used to do that also. What makes any of these different from each other REALLY if they end up being treated the same.

I would love to see invasions treated differently than the other threads I’ve mentioned because they are. They have more in common with an Annihilation than a skirmish or junction, and that is a good thing.

Within an invasion writers have the option to collaborate with the person opposite them to determine the outcome of their conflict and tell an amazing story.

Invasions are special. Hexes are at stake. That’s the difference between them and other intrafacion threads. The victory conditions as they’ve been written in the rules actually ENCOURAGE collaboration, and if you can’t play along… you might be paying with your hex.. or you may fail to neutralize a hex.

The possibility of losing a hex or making one go neutral actually ENCOURAGES good story telling. People don’t like losing something they have worked for. Can it cause some drama and salt? Sure, for some reason we all can get passionate about fictional real estate that’s colored by pixels and uploaded onto the internet. That same passion has also produced some of the best writing, stories, and activity, I’ve seen in my 10 years here.

We just haven’t gotten there with predetermined outcomes.

 

[Connel Vanagor]

As mentioned, it depends on the person. If I know what my opponent wants to get out of an interaction, I'll have just as much enjoyment reading their posts as working out how to get them success. If you have people only concerned with topping their opponents (which happens to everyone sometimes) it gets annoying but that is a result of a lack of communication.

 

[Kassogtha Cthylla]

The excitement of waiting for the judgment results was part of the fun of invasions. It raised the stakes and provided an incentive for writers to do their best: post in a timely manner, take hits, and write a compelling story that would actually be worth reading.

When the outcome was predetermined, things got very boring. It also seemed like the number of invasion threads went into decline while the judgment process was repealed, which made me sad because I love war.

I'm looking forward to see how things will go now that judgments have been reinstated.

 

[Lyrrin]

In a lot of ways I've seen pre-determined outcomes ensure a drama-less thread. Everyone knows what they're going into, anyone with strong feelings against it wouldn't show up and waste their energy. The overall plot was established from start to finish but the details of how we got their was up to us as writers reacting organically to the world presented. I suppose the feeling of being 'cheated' out of an outcome you've been working toward can't really be established if it was never in the picture to begin with.

There's a time and place for things though and I think that consistently pre-determined outcomes would diminish the general feel of Chaos.

 

[Maldor Mecetti]

I would not want to take away something someone had invested a great deal of themselves in and did not want to lose. I am not a Sith in real life. ;-)

If this was just a board game of Axis and Allies or Risk it would be different, but people spend months or years making something here, and it would be a bit rough to say, "Well, I rolled a six. You die. Or your lands are conquered. Too bad, so sad."

There are often enough people willing to take controlled losses, or gain controlled wins, to tell a good story. These people are usually pleasant to interact with, in my experience.

 

[Rik Perris]

I am not a Sith in real life. ;-)

I am, I'm just not that cruel.

That aside, I think a little predetermination can work to some degree. Overly planning something is murder to my muse (I don't think I'm alone in that!), so this is more 'predetermining the outcome/general story beats/whatever', rather than the entire minutiae of a thread, whatever the thread is. All in all, we are all writing the journey - it's not the result that's the fun part, but how you get there. A planned outcome shouldn't hamper your writing unless you let it.

And if your thoughts against predetermined outcomes put you against the concept because of the risk of predetermined loss and defeat? Writing loss and defeat is enjoyable character building - even more enjoyable than winning, in my experience. Some of my best PvP experiences have been when I've gotten my ass handed to me. Getting to dig into what that does or doesn't do to a character is fulfilling writing.

 

[Elani Zambrano]

In a word: yes.

In a few more words: yes in certain, most situations.

The point of pvp threads, at least it used to be, is to take your character and pit them against some one else's character and write some good storytelling while also making sure you beat the other guy cause you're fighting(writing) for something whether it be IC glory, money, or something map game related. Pre-determined outcomes kinda ruin half of that equation. I'm with Rik Perris on this one. Determining the outcome of a thread? Snoresville. I don't even plan my normal threads. I get a broad idea of where things begin and where they could go then I let the thread fill in the blanks in the middle and the end. Feels more fluid that way. Makes it more exciting and pulls you in more to write your character in situations you weren't prepared for so you can grow with your character to get an idea and write how they would behave in such situations.

 

[Tefka]

that poll do be looking a lot closer than originally thought

 

[Valery Noble]

I'm not too surprised the poll is very close. The SGHW that ran between late 2021 until earlier 2023 was pre-determined stuff and plenty of people had a lot of fun writing in those invasions.

But I think there is fun to be had with both options. Pre-determined can keep things relaxed, and it's also useful if you want to set up bigger plots that lead up to something. The path to Tython being a good example of this

In contrast, the strife to win an invasion and the not knowing can make judged invasions really fun as well.

I think having both options to tell stories is the best way to go.

 

[Tefka]

I'm not too surprised the poll is very close. The SGHW that ran between late 2021 until earlier 2023 was pre-determined stuff and plenty of people had a lot of fun writing in those invasions.

But I think there is fun to be had with both options. Pre-determined can keep things relaxed, and it's also useful if you want to set up bigger plots that lead up to something. The path to Tython being a good example of this

In contrast, the strife to win an invasion and the not knowing can make judged invasions really fun as well.

I think having both options to tell stories is the best way to go.

I dont know why you’re still trying to convince me, I figured predetermined wouldve wiped the floor with the poll, not vice versa.