An Idea for Dice Use

[Atin Vendet]

I've never been much of one for FFC. Usually I've found that dice, and skill allocations, make things more enjoyable when you know things are based on actual training. Pros and cons are important. Anyway, figured I'd throw this idea out there:

Novice: Characters Age 10-17 (Human years. Maturity of race.)
Skilled: Characters Age: 18-27
Advanced: Characters Age: 28-37
Expert: Characters Age: 38-47
Master: (Character is an Officer in their respective organization, and has had a mentor)
Infamous: Reserved for the second in commands of organization
Legendary: Reserved for the big bads, or big goods. Jedi Grand Master, Dark lord of the Sith, Mand'alor

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6j4pb9isNKRYkNOSlRhaE04RGc/view?pref=2&pli=1

My stats, for example:

Atin Vendet
Rank: Expert (He's age 32)
A-5
S-5
C-1
I-3
P-1
W-5

Then. Rolls can be made against each other and such.

I mean, this is just an idea. I'm sure the ranks need WAY more qualifications and standards than that, but it'd be cool to see.

 

[Jamie Pyne]

Not a fan of this at all. Part of what makes Chaos what it is, is that there is freedom. Basing a character's abilities solely off of arbitrary titles and ages puts things into check boxes for qualifications, which then ends up being "I win because I am in the higher bracket" for just about everything. Ambiguous amounts of power, common sense, and creative writing should dictate how powerful your character is or is not, as well as how powerful you want them to seem, as well as how other people would see you.

It's an idea, but it's not one that will get much traction here I don't think. Jamie here is never going to be a powerful Force user, and that's simply because I don't want her to be. While on the other hand I've done a lot of work on making another character of mine well developed with the Force in a number of specific areas, and write that angle to the very best of my ability.

 

[Atin Vendet]

[member="Jamie Pyne"]

While I'd normally agree with you, FFC is always a choice. In the current website, there are no consequences or absolutes. It's two people with sticks in the woods playing army, when you point the stick and say "I shot you". Now. The other person could play dead, or he could say: "No you didn't."

I'm not generally a fan of that . A character's abilities would be more realistic based on time and experience and training, which is why I left that bracket open for discussion, and put a rudimentary qualification there. You're perfectly justified in having that opinion, but I'm also justified in the opinion that consequences should be a thing. Some people put more training into one thing than another, and for every positive, there's a fault. Failure should always be a possibility, and not always be a choice, in my opinion.

If you want a character a certain way, then it's easy just to stat them that way. Those are absolutes, with degrees of success and failure. The current FFC system potentially stifles a lot of the potential of PVP, which as a community, is a very common concept.

 

[Yvette Dusong]

This isn't so much an issue with Chaos as it is with PbP role-playing in general. Outside of the logistical issues that would arise from having to implement an entire Dice system within the site itself so that one cannot be accused of smudging the dies, re-rolling willy-nilly, or other such shenanigans, there is also the issue of it boggling down writing to a crawl. In a tabletop environment it works much better precisely because one can declare their actions, roll the die, and see whether or not Fate had decided to smile down upon them so that either they or the GM can add an addendum involving the result of their actions. With it being so fast-paced and easy-to-do, regardless of whether or not players are face-to-face or using an online application such as Roll20, alongside the myriad of skills, talents, traits and whatnot associated with a system that can range from simple to complex that can influence the roll itself.

On most PbP games, you have a myriad of issues to deal with. The most notable one being that it slows the play to a crawl, as people have to first declare their action, roll the die, then add an addendum to said action that depicts the result of the die roll. In a worst case scenario you relegate the meaning of a roll to a "GM" / RPJ / Mod / Admin and that slows things even more considerably. Then you have to wait while your opponent does the same thing. And that's the easiest hurdle to surpass, I'm not even going to get into the whole mess that is actually creating a system that will constantly have to be updated every day to take into account new weapons and gear that constantly gets submitted to the factory and the plethora of powers one may have at their disposal. A mentalist / alchemist alone would make the grappling rules from 3.5 look like a walk in the park.

Not to mention what would happen if you placed two equally-skilled opponents against one another and the entire fate of the battle would reside within a single lucky / unlucky die roll. It's not a workable system basically. If you want for combat to be more fair, engaging, balanced, and whatnot then preach about having people write with more quality and detail and about sportsmanship to get a tangible point across.

 

[Atin Vendet]

[member="Yvette Dusong"] ) I don't see anything you've brought up as a problem. I didn't intend for this to be forced on the site, but perhaps something akin to tags that are put in a bio. Players that ARE interested could use it, and those that aren't don't have to- but it would be an easy to learn, and standardized system for those that DO. As for the rest, there's a pretty simple solution to that.

Go into a dice lobby. Roll it with the person you're doing this story with, then reflect those rolls in your post. The (NUMBERS) dont have to be in your post, and the dice itself doesn't have to be forced on website. Way I see things, though, the people that aren't willing to accept consequences of failure are /usually/ the ones most intimidated by a dice system and its use. While the rolls may be random, this effects more or less a combination of the environment, and luck. You've fired, but your gun jams. You've attempted to use the force, but maybe they were a bit mentally too strong for that, or you were distracted. It's really that simple. You have skill points to put into things to effect the nature of the engagement. Putting four points into a ranged roll could give me a 20% greater chance of hitting, but there's always that degree of environmental failure.

On a different note, preaching is attempting to teach a belief. You either like it, or you don't. Its got its positives, and its negatives.

 

[Dune Rhur]

I do like the idea of more structure as far as training. Hand-waving and whatever almost negate the point of training threads here. You also have writers using certain abilities well beyond their respective levels in the books, comics and movies. Of course, this is an alternate take on story but I don't understand why people totally throw everything out the window in those cases.

It also adds more realism i.e. people aren't master swordsmen with umpteen Force skills. You have to specialize to some degree. Also, a Padawan isn't lifting and throwing around a Mon Calamari Star Cruiser and probably neither is a Knight. Things like that are immersion breaking as, if you think about it, it takes many years to even become competent in a particular skill for most.

 

[Atin Vendet]

[member="Dune Rhur"] Precisely. I like the idea of things having weight. People always have different specs and agreements as to what qualifies their character as dangerous. Those rules above keep people in check. I know CLEARLY where I am on it. Doesn't matter if I've RPed Atin up to 860 exp in edge of empire at 5exp an hour. That's irrelevent. Some of those ranks should clearly ONLY be unlocked with training and experience. I dont expect to be tangling with certain force users, and I don't expect to have some 17 year old master of everything capable of it either. Sometimes, it's logical to get roasted spectacularly.

On that scale. I know where I'm at. The character's lived some long years and has learned some things. Doesn't make him mand'alor. Doesn't make him able to TAKE the mand'alor. When fighting a faction boss, or the second in command, he's expected to get the floor wiped with him. He's a soldier in a much larger war and army. That's the point. Restrictions and qualifications are that point.

I'd actually argue that expert rank, on that scale, needs qualifications as well.

Novice: Untrained, un force sensitives, below age 20
Skilled: Recruits in their field
Advanced: Scum, Militia, Regulars, natural force sensitives
Expert: Sith Acolytes, Jedi Apprentices, Most experienced Mandalorians, Most Experienced Soldiers
Master: Veteran Mandalorians, Soldiers, or head members of minor organizations, new Knights. (Kal Skirata, Clone Commandos)
Infamous: Top Jedi Knights or council members, Top Sith Enforcers, Top Generals or Admirals, THE Mand'alor.(Jango Fett, Vader)
Legendary: THE Dark lord of the Sith. THE Jedi Grand Master. (Palpatine. Yoda.)

 

[Fabula Caromed]

This is an old, old, old conversation and no one will ever agree on it. Many people would be fine with or even prefer a dice system, many people feel it detracts from the creative writing process. Neither side is willing to change their mind, so it continues in stalemate.

You're free to use whatever system you and your writing partners consent to. No one will stop you. But it'd be best not to expect change on any measurable level. This site has been freeform for its entire lifespan. It's not likely to change, ever.

 

[Yvette Dusong]

Can't really talk much at the moment unfortunately but I'd like to add something before having to disapear for a bit.

It also adds more realism i.e. people aren't master swordsmen with umpteen Force skills. You have to specialize to some degree. Also, a Padawan isn't lifting and throwing around a Mon Calamari Star Cruiser and probably neither is a Knight. Things like that are immersion breaking as, if you think about it, it takes many years to even become competent in a particular skill for most.

Trust me when I say I agree with you in general but, more exactly, what is going to stop people from fudging dies or abusing less-than-stellar system rules to accomplish this while also making it so Tefka and Co. don't need to constantly work and update an ever-expanding rule-set? Munckins and Grognards aren't an endangered species after all. That isn't a problem with the freeform system in-place within Chaos, it's a problem with the writers themselves.

 

[Atin Vendet]

[member="Fabula Caromed"]

Of course. But I'd like to throw this out there for people that /do/ like the idea, and want to improve a more common system for us dice users to use. Those of us that /do/ enjoy it, might enjoy talking out some standardization for the norm.

Can't really talk much at the moment unfortunately but I'd like to add something before having to disapear for a bit.


Trust me when I say I agree with you in general but, more exactly, is going to stop people from fudging dies or abusing less-than-stellar system rules to accomplish this while also making it so Tefka and Co. don't need to constantly work and update an ever-expanding rule-set? Munckins and Grognards aren't an endangered species after all. That isn't a problem with the freeform system in-place within Chaos, it's a problem with the writers themselves.

You can't (Always) fix writers. You can't standardize writers. I covered this topic earlier. It's not forcing dice on anybody. It's standardizing it for those that enjoy a little bit of risk. It's as easy as two people meeting in roll twenty. It's an option, not a requirement. The thread is here for the purpose of expanding upon the option.

 

[Kurayami Bloodborn]

[member="Atin Vendet"]

As a writer, I dislike the dice roll system due to how little control you have in the end. Now I never got into tabletop RPG's but I've got plenty of friends who love them. I can see in the context of a Skype call or some such this working, or a customized map for Tabletop Simulator on steam. But to combine it with the writing aspect devalues how well the writer is able to explain their actions to the others in the thread with them. That is what makes a character dangerous is the writer and how well they know what they are doing. A good writer isn't going to rofldodge everything, they will take hits when it makes sense to. The hit may not be what you expected, or you may miss if they see a way out of it that works with the setting and their gear, as well as their abilities to make it possible that your shot went wide. While I personally stay away from PvP, Kurayami takes plenty of hits and damage in almost every thread I have done with him. He's an ace fighter pilot, yet against two pirates he lost almost half his shields total. Sure in the end he came out on top, but he didn't dodge out of the way of every shot. I know he's going to take more damage before the thread is over, and that is just from NPC's. From a PC, even a Apprentice level Force user who has been trained, he wouldn't last long. Even if he made it out of the fight, he'd be fucked up beyond all recognition physically.

 

[Atin Vendet]

[member="Kurayami Bloodborn"] and how did you determine that damage? Who's to say one of this pirates wasn't an ace? Where is the threat of death? Nobody is removing your right to FFC. They're adding their right to immersion, consequence, success, or failure.

Small details matter. The wall you use as cover that another player had no reference to? The systems in your ship? The nitty gritty. Its a game of chess where both sides can keep adding pawns, in an indefinite game without finality

A dice roll is finite. An enemy has shot and beaten my roll. I am hit. Here is consequence

 

[Kurayami Bloodborn]

How? Based on what was around him at the time, the type of fighters involved, what maneuvers were used and how long you would have to get a shot on your enemy in the given circumstances. In a situation like a rolling scissors(a vertical rolling engagement trying to bleed off energy to get behind the enemy ad line up either a gun shot or snap missile shot based on distance), which Kurayami and his final adversary found themselves in, focus is paramount as is knowing the limits of the craft involved. Kurayami had the advantage based on thrust-to-weight ratio giving him the advantage in the vertical plane of combat. In a turning fight, even with the thrust vectoring figured in, he would be forced into a lower turn rate at high speeds as his craft is larger and has great thrust. Why does this matter in a vertical engagement though? Easy, with the greater thrust he can more easily regain the energy lost when going over the top whereas the bandit would have a harder time doing so. Also, the enemy pilot was pissed after blowing the wing off his wingman when he was sure that they had the advantage. So he was overconfident, held down the trigger a moment too long and ended up killing his friend. That takes focus out of the mind of the enemy pilot. Still managed to hit him with snap shots during the rolling scissors, but Kurayami bugged out and went straight vertical, the other pilot was so focused on the kill that he followed. Guess who ran out of speed first and lost control? If you guessed the enemy you win. He got vaped while trying to regain control.

That is the basic explanation of how.

[member="Atin Vendet"]

 

[Jack Sparrow]

I love tabletop RPGs. I play them often. I enjoy rolling dice in the games that require it. It's not why I joined this site. I joined this site to write, not to roll. If you can find people who want to add a level of randomness to their actions, as B.B. King once said, "Glory in your spunk." Just don't be upset when others are advancing based on the site-honored tradition of "do what you want, just don't be a jerk about it."

 

[Atin Vendet]

I suppose I'll say again:

"This isnt forcing FFC players to use dice"
Nor is it for people to get super defensive about a writing style. Some of you don't enjoy dice, and explain why. I do, and explained why.
For those of you with input on a system and guidelines, (back on topic) interested in consequences and PvP, please discuss further dice development.For those not, its as simple as doing what you're already doing. XD

(To;Dr. Let's have less: "zomg FFC is better" and more enthusiasts on the topic who have input on a system to use for those that'd use it.)

 

[Jsc]

(To;Dr. Let's have less: "zomg FFC is better" and more enthusiasts on the topic who have input on a system to use for those that'd use it.)

Not sure why you're expecting people to comment a certain way towards you. You posted a dice thread on Chaos. Fabs hit the "TL;DR" nail on the head when she spoke to you already. We've been here before. The commentary was colorful and appreciated on both sides. It was cool. It's still cool. Has been cool since 2013. Dice systems will probably always be cool on this website. They just happen to be sparsely used. Not sparsely appreciated.

Alas. Your responses to the comments thus far are pretty off-base. Which is a bummer. ...Still. I'm glad you posted the first post. It's a nice reminder of all the options we freeform players have available to us. Cheers mate.

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

Force knows, I love a good dice roll, but for general RPing it really has no place in play by post.

Feel free to use it yourself though, don't feel discouraged. Just know that this crowd is not going to be the sort to pick it up.

 

[Werah Unon]

[member="Atin Vendet"] I have done a few play-by-post RP's before, and they all end badly. 5 blows against an enemy, took 3 hours of solid writing. Now, I'm not saying this would happen every time, but there are far too many variables too make dice work. "Your friend fires a blaster, roll to see if you hit, roll for dmg, roll for armour. The enemy uses a force shield? Roll for their strength in that, roll for defence against the shield. Hit them? Where did it hit? Head, arm, leg? Roll to find out." As you can see, it takes far too long, and people get lazy with writing, and focus only on the dice. This might not happen here, but this is my experience using dice.

 

[Fabula Caromed]

Incidentally, [member="Atin Vendet"], I've talked about dice systems a bit on my blog. In case you're interested in that sort of thing.

[/shameless self-plug]

 

[Sarge Potteiger]

Of course. But I'd like to throw this out there for people that /do/ like the idea, and want to improve a more common system for us dice users to use. Those of us that /do/ enjoy it, might enjoy talking out some standardization for the norm.

Side note: You're free to talk out 'standardization' for a dice roll norm among people who want to dice roll.

Staff will not enforce it, and even if you decide it's your norm, no one will be beholden to it that doesn't want to be. Freeform for life.

Also bad [member="Fabula Caromed"]. Bad. No self plugs!