Question What makes good evil?

[Darth Daiara]

I've been exploring this concept over the last few months-- trying my damnest to put a person and a reason behind actions that are going to become increasingly more horrific. But the more I go to write this the more I realize how little I've explored this topic before. It's complex and rich and I'd love to hear a discussion on it.

So tell me your thoughts!

What makes believable evil?

What makes readable evil?

What makes evil feel earned and deserved and not simply there as a plot device or motivation?

What makes you root for the bad guy?

What type of moments make you feel ? Get shivers or chills-- make you go damn , and just a moment there's empathy ... before everything else comes crashing back and their actions are simply inexcusable.

That's the kinda stuff I'd love to hear more about. Tell me your thoughts, I'm all ears.

 

[Caltin Vanagor]

I used to have a Dark Side character (way too short-lived a character) that had a code of honor. More and more, there were atrocities against it, and his view of that code became twisted. He truly believed he was doing good in the galaxy with what he was doing, the problem is, it was just the opposite. He only realized what had happened in his last breath.

 

[Enyo Typhos]

Every villain is the hero of their story...even if that story somehow requires the murder of millions of innocent people for absurd reasons. Look at the real world. The worst war criminals that are rightly reviled, save by a lunatic fringe, didn't just wake up one day and decide to commit wanton murder for the hell of it. They were convinced that what they were doing was justified in some sick way. This doesn't make their actions any less vile. Indeed, it makes them more so. And even they had drives and lives outside of that (and often people they cared about, even if it was in a selfish way). Star Wars, like many fictional stories, tends towards dramatic portrayals, but real world evil is often quite 'banal'.

For me personally, I don't find card-carrying, sadistic villainy that interesting.

Enyo is my main villain character, and when I started, I essentially wrote her as akin to someone who grew up in a totalitarian environment like the Hitler Youth or IS (she was created by genocidal HRDs who wanted to use her as a living weapon to further their plans to go all Skynet on the galaxy). She did bad things in furtherance of what she believed was a good cause, she was hurt and manipulated. Jealousy and an inferiority complex also played a role (she's Sio's clone and grew up in her mirror's shadow).

When pushed too far (being forced to kill a sibling) she lashed out. But the crucial thing is, while Enyo turned against her makers, she'd absorbed a lot of their beliefs. Enyo is darkside, but not your typical hate-filled Sith. There's rarely any malice in what she does. She simply doesn't value organic life much outside of her siblings and some select people. Do your job well? She'll be aloof and distant, but treat you well. Screw up? You'll be painlessly processed into a droid or enteched and never mess up again. She cared about her siblings enough to let those who disagreed with her morally choose their own path...she's also enough of a control freak to spy on them for their 'protection'.

Enyo's a 'Dark Jedi' who thinks like an HRD most of the time. In some ways, her code is more like an unconscious twisting of Jedi ideals because she was raised in a monastic way. Her evil manifests less in hatred (she doesn't even hate Jedi, even though the Korriban City orbital bombardment crippled her), and more in the absence of empathy for the vast majority of sentient beings.

She isn't sadistic because that is inefficient. She respects foes who put up a good fight (this was, for instance, demonstrated in her duel with Loske Treicolt . It's one of the reasons she spared her, the other being that she feels a bit of empathy for another clone). She also helped TSE unleash a zombie outbreak on Mirial back in the day and her business model is that of a wardog. She's a horrible person who deserves death, but there were events that led to that.

So in short, when writing a villain, treat them like any other character. Establish motivations and goals. And, hell, stuff they do when they're not doing evil deeds. Not every villain wears black, monologues about the dark side, immortality and 'unlimited power'.

 

[Violet Horne]

Easy, having a darksider tag!

 

[Alina Tremiru]

Imma fan out a bit with what I'm talking about, but it's only because he's my absolute favorite villain. I'll avoid using his name, just incase people are watching the show he's in and y'know, spoilers.

So this bud is going through the world trying to absorb everything's magic. (Fantasy plot woo). And I mean everything. It's world shattering. He goes to powerful individuals and kills them to take their magic. He goes to lands rich in magic and absorbs every drop and kills the land and those on it. It's ruthless and cruel, but he doesn't view it as such.

The reason being?

He's absorbing all this magic to power a device that will let him go back in time to save his family from their death. In his eyes, all of these atrocities he's committed don't matter. When he succeeds, he'll erase them from ever happening. All the suffering will never exist. He'll live with the memories of what he's done, but it would be worth it to save his family. No one else would ever know.

That's the kind of evil I love. When they can view their actions not as evil, because it's not in their eyes.

 

[Darth Daiara]

Easy, having a darksider tag!

where's yours??

 

[Jaeger Harrsk]

Human nature. To all questions.

I used to write a Sith (to day my only 'succesful' one, thanks andy) whose evil actions were all spurred from an inferiority complex which manifested in envy and helplessness and then you wrap that up in superpowers.

In this specific case, he used to be from a poor background among wealthy 'privileged' peers. Honestly, it can be complex but also super simplified. I literally based it on:

• ok i walk cuz poor
• ok everyone around drives the latest ferrari model
• ok i now have superpowers

 

[Sawa Ike]

There is a lot of different ways, the misunderstood villain can be fun where they do have a reason and purpose for what they have done or an ultimate goal. There is also the sheer fun of someone evil for the sake of it and being that mustache twirling villain. They can be comical when done correctly. My few villains try to go across the spectrum with ones like Shinju who are evil because it is fun, Balaya who really just is uncaring about what is done in the pursuit of knowledge and her experiments and Sawa evolved into a more complicated darksider instead of just being the "Dark Ike" once she started threading with Maple Harte who helped create her and Nine's complicated backstory. Perhaps becoming one of my most favorite.

 

[Dreidi Xeraic]

For me, making an evil character doesn't have to be someone who isn't sadistic, bloodthirsty or just completely unappealing in all respects. You can write that character, you can try one that is edgy and dark and wants to work on their own. What makes an evil character is being relatable, even in the smallest way, make a character that is somehow, in someway relatable and then develop their past on why they have gone the way they have then everyone will be interested.

The worst villain you can make is one that no one can empathise with or understand, because then they become this monster that no one finds interesting. I am sure plenty of others are saying the same thing with better works and explanations but I will say that I tend to struggle using a Sith or evil character because I struggle to write someone who isn't just over the top evil and completely ridiculous. However, you can do that as well, but best way to do that is to let the reader know that you know this is over the top.

However, I always say, write the character the way you want to. Getting advice on what people is great and can improve your writing but if you want to write a character in a certain way and you avoid it because you think no one wants to read your character then stop that, write what you want and what makes you happy and it will come through, and it will get others interested seeing that joy.

 

[Enyo Typhos]

Another pertinent factor is the environment a character grew up in. People are shaped by the world they grow up in. For instance, a member of the elite raised in a feudal or deeply racist society will view people from the wrong class/caste/race as beneath them and be perplexed by the idea that this might be wrong 'Do you let cats and dogs vote, too?' Evil is oftentimes systemic.

This doesn't mean they'll go around abusing them all day, though such people also exist in large numbers, as history shows time and again. They may have pet the dog moments where they're 'nice' to their 'slave'...and expect said slave should be 'grateful' for having such a 'kind master' who lets them have leftovers and only beats them when they've been 'uppity' (and generally delegates the chastisements, such as to another slave who keeps the others in line).

But they'll also believe that it's their due to expect unconditional obedience from said slave. And if that slave runs away...how dare they?! It's their lot to serve. Some people simply aren't intellectually capable to make their own choices. I mean, even the few 'good guys' among the nobles in Game of Thrones never question the idea that the peasants should do as they're told by their 'lords'.

This is something I've done with Elpsis' clone, Kyriaki. Long story cut short, she's been raised by a bunch of human supremacist Sith who are essentially space nazis (this all takes place on a custom planet I made). Now Kyriaki actually dislikes these people and hates their cruelty (she also has the problem that the cloning process was faulty, so she's sickly and has to take care not to run afoul of bigwigs, lest she be categorised as 'inferior). She tries to mitigate evil when feasible, but is also complicit in it. At the end of the day, she's still an enabler, albeit one with sympathetic traits.

Moreover, she's a slave owner. Her personal slave is a Twi'lek she spared from execution. Said Twi'lek is her main confidant, ironically (she has some skills Kyri lacks). Kyriaki appreciates her...but has absorbed enough of her masters' belief to think that as an alien, the slave is mentally inferior to her and owes her obedience. Unlike Enyo, Kyri will be getting an arc where she goes on a better path after being rescued by her template.

 

[Fatty]

The assumption that all villains view themselves as heroes of their own story is not necessarily true.

There does exist a number of villains, both real and fictional, that know full well their actions spell doom and despair for others... they just don't care, or consider their narcissistic self-valuation to be so much higher than those suffering from their actions that it doesn't matter. In other words, they can possess the self-awareness that what they are doing is to be abhorred and unabashedly evil, and they may even go as far in relishing in it that what they are doing is vile. They may come to realize that they are the villain of everyone else's story, and quickly learn to love it.

This is the space in which Darth Voracitos exists. He doesn't think what he does is righteous. He has no illusions about what he is or what he does, because everything he does he does for himself, and himself alone. He'll use honied words, and kowtow to whomever he thinks he'll benefit the most from, but it is never out of loyalty, or obligation, it is always self interest. How did he become this way? Easy, he was raised this way. From the moment his eyes opened, to the first time he died, to this very moment, he has been taught that power over others is the only power that matters.

However, Voracitos is a smart guy, well studied and superbly educated. He knows that there are other ways of doing things, and could implement them easily if he ever had the desire to, but he doesn't care because he like the ways things are. He enjoys the thrill of ending life, the pleasures of taking away the will of others, and loves the challenge to acquire more power that will allow him to do that with ever greater efficiency... forever.

Never root for Voracitos, he'd hate that.

 

[Caedyn Arenais]

I've only had one successful character who was a Darksider (Evil) Character, and that was Caehl Ren.

Most of the time I can't do the whole chaotic evil type, creating fires just to watch the world burn, but his story was that he had become so devout to the Supreme Leader that he had become a zealot within the Order of Ren/First Order. The beauty of playing him was that I could justify his unpredictability through a sense of insane devotion to an idol (Or in this case a Leader and their ideologies).

I've never succeeded at playing an outright Sith Character, however, and if I were to try to do so, I realize I'm going to have to have a good sense of character development and justification behind being a bad person or an immoral one at the least.

Lately I've been considering about having Valen Arenais go Darkside because he's a clone created by Darksiders and so there's a fair bit of just cause in that story but given my track record with Darksiders, I'm apprehensive about starting something and calling it quits as I did with Veiere's short-lived Darkside arc.

 

[Alkor Centaris]

Evil isn't strictly one thing.

For me, there are characters who have a reason and those that don't. Take for example Xenro: methodical in his approach to being a Sith. His entire thing is purification of the faith. The strong eat the weak, so anything that gets him to a point where the Sith have cut out all of their weakness is justifiable. There's nothing good or redeemable about that character. He is evil because at the end of the day, he doesn't see any merit in kindness, empathy, or justice.

Alkor as a Dark Jedi wanted to be the strongest anywhere. He stagnated because he reached that point in his own mind. There was no one to challenge him, and no purpose to drive him forward. He started to shift toward manipulation because swaying the fate of entire galactic superpowers would have been suitably less boring than nothing, but ultimately, I chose to move him away from evil because it no longer gave him meaning.

You can absolutely have an evil character who does it for the "right reasons." Jacen Solo is the best canon example of this. Everything started for him as a noble goal, but as he went down the dark path, he lost sight of that. Power corrupts.

In all, the story you want to tell has to come from a deep part of the character. If you know them well enough, you can pull it out and create something; if you're not quite there, just keep searching. Development takes time and comes in phases.

 

[Darth Immortuos]

Imo if you want to write a villian then throw away any concept of what good or evil means. One mans good is anothers evil, one mans evil is anothers good. There is no absolute. Things naturally are complex.

Nulgath Zardai(Darth Immortuos) can easily be considered a horrible person. Evil or w/e. He infects others with a horrid sickness so they serve is purpose. He surrounds himself in “power” and seems to have no real humanity. What people dont see is that he has a daughter he loves more than anything in the universe. And so the story is goes similarly along what Alina Tremiru was telling.

Kezeroth the Hateful, my Gendai sith lord did not start from heights of power but rather in a lab surrounded by loving scientists, then a slave of the sith for 1500 years plagued with the entire spectrum of mental diseases. A cycle of depravity. He became what he hated so he can destroy it. It takes a monster to kill a monster. But i always wrote it as a struggle between mental health, revenge and the hope to live a pain free life with friends and family he gained along the way. Ultimately his obsession doomed him though.

Really look past the words of good and evil and write about struggle&failure cuz that is something that is more real and its always present. Its the way we as humans can relate to one another.

I love writing characters that fail and struggle hard. Ones that fall into valleys, climb mountains and fall again. The basic pattern is predictable but how you can execute it is not.

 

[Milla Kryst]

I've come to understand a proper villain isn't so much a "good" villain, but a "compelling" villain. Just like Enyo Typhos said, every villain is the hero of their story.

Mandalorian Spoiler below, but is a great example of a compelling villain I think

Spoiler

 

[Darth Petrichor]

I have a few thoughts on this. I think there's something to be said about the difference between antagonist and villain. An Antagonist is literally anyone in opposition to the goals of a protagonist. This can include people that are morally grey, or even good. Everyone has potential to be someone's antagonist. That leads me to my next point.

People are usually not purely good or evil. If you look at some historical figures who are known for their good works in the world, you'll often find that they weren't all good. Likewise, there are people in history that, while being known for their atrocities, also had the occasional good act as well. I think a writer who does a great job at exploring this is George R. R. Martin. He has an ability to show the morally grey area where most people reside (if you look into the D&D alignment system, the common conception is that most people reside in the "Chaotic Neutral" alignment).

This makes me reach a simple conclusion: write your villains as people. At the end of the day, odds are that they are still having many of the same thoughts that others have. Writing them as people who happen to have a skewed perspective on how to go about achieving their goals gives them depth, and can make their fall all the more tragic. It can give even the greatest descent into madness that extra punch.

This brings up another point. There are effective villains who don't fit this description, but are equally effective. I usually find these to be villains that either A) act as an agent of chaos, or B) function as a force of nature. This creates a different sort of function for them within the story (aside from the obvious role of antagonist). They almost become a personification of the struggle the heroes. Take Joker, for instance (agent of chaos). He acts as a moral foil to Batman, and often forces him to confront the worst parts of his psyche. We can also look at Sauron (force of nature), who kind of takes on this whole concept of darkness, rather than being a physical force that the Fellowship must destroy in battle.

The agent of chaos and force of nature methods are definitely effective, but (in my experience) often require an opposing force to be more effective. So that being said, I think in most cases you'll be better off writing based on the first idea. Make them human. Give them the depth and complexity of a person. If you look at Legend of Korra, those villains might not be the best people, but they make a LOT of sense. Watching season three, I even got to a point where I was siding with Zaheer. This was because not only did his cause make a lot of sense, but you understood his perception of the world. You could see why he was the way he was, and how he truly was trying to do great things for the world.

In conclusion, villains, just like other people, have wants, desires, and goals. They may even have those whom they love and care for. Even the most twisted villains have things they want to achieve. I say take a look at the character's goals, and why they want to achieve them in the way they are, and build from there.

 

[Auteme]

There is no one way to write evil, as it really depends on the story -- I can't say I'm an expert on writing evil characters, but I like to think about why people do bad things.

Disney villains -- pure evil, the antithesis of the hero -- though effective are often considered unfit for more complex or long-running narratives. When it comes to Chaos, I think focusing on the fact that you are writing a character first and a villain second.

Aradia has a lot of interesting plot threads to pull on. When I read her (which is rare, and I'm sorry, I'm a terrible reader) I understand why she does things and what she wants, and I think you've done a good job thus far. Piling on the motivation, the pain, the anger that pushes her to be worse and worse -- just make sure you're moving forward. If you intend to have her change for the worse, make it happen.

Or don't -- redeem her, or maybe go straight to pure evil when she keeps dipping into her hate. Those intense emotions are what make a Sith, in my view.

Whatever you do, I'm sure it'll be great. All of this stuff is just tools in the toolbox. Keep on writing.

Darth Daiara

 

[Jsc]

I'd echo Jaeger and say it's all Human Nature for me.

Shaping evil is just shaping a person. Their goals, virtues, flaws, powers, morals, and potential. Whether it's effective is up their writer. Whether it's tasteful is up their reader.

If you are both the writer and the reader of your character? Then you only need aim to please or grow yourself.

 

[Darth Daiara]

Wow! a massive turn out!

I love hearing thoughts on this, it adds a lot of depth to an under discussed topic. I think the attention goes on the heroes and THEIR decision making, it's neat to see this topic engaged with so heavily here too.

Feel free to follow up with your favorite book or movie antagonists, I'd love to give them a peak!

 

[Hailyn]

Evil is what is antithetical to the beliefs of those who believe that they are good, or, in some cases, an overabundance of what is core to their values.

Writing evil, then, may be more of a question of perspective than a collection of tropes. Try to position your train of thought with someone or something that you feel other "good" people would find themselves vehemently opposed to, whether it is immediate or in hindsight with regret.

Even what you think is good could be perverted into evil if you try hard enough.

Darth Daiara