What is and is not a Flagship?

[Captain Larraq]

OK! So here I am with a soapbox again.

Kinda.

A recent submission in the starship factory is apparently causing a bit of a ripple in the community's OOC discussions.

And I thought it would be a good idea to create a central location for discussions on the matter to take place.

Some people think the design is unfair, regardless of how many posts are put into the development thread.

Me? I don't really care. I could beat three of these things so badly with a handful of frigates and cruisers that the opposing writer abandons the thread. And I'm likely not the only one who could do so.

But the design has a few people upset and concerned about fairness. Something that the factory has lost in the transition to a 2.0 guide is any form of balance or standardization. How a submission is reviewed is entirely up in the air and dependent on the Judge who happens to step up. Some judges want everything to be standard and boring and toss rediculous nerf requests or dev thread requirements on anything beyond their own opinion of what a starship/technology should be... others simply stamp and approve some... very questionable things.

My main argument here... is that the design uses a 400 post development thread as justification to create a ship that vastly exceeds the 'standard' limitations typically accepted. Yet the submitter is looking to make the ship at minor production.

Even at a simple glance, the submissions reads like a flagship. The ship has a Flagship quality development thread behind it. Has an armament and defense appropriate for a flagship. And falls within the lower length limitations of a flagship. And yet it's aiming for Minor Production.



My two cents are as follows.

• If you want a minor production ship, make a minor production ship.
• If you want a pew-pew supership, bite the bullet and accept the Unique or Near-Unique production rating.

Also, [member="Ceran Moerelle"], you forgot to include a reactor, any details on how you actually manage to power all those weapons, or any realistic flaws to coincide with the thousands of meters of power conduits and circuitry that would go along with all those guns. Not to mention the extensive reactor itself.

Oh! And be careful with that Proton Beam Cannon. On a ship this big, it's pretty much one step south of a superweapon. Six months ago, you'd have been strung up by your entrails for trying to use it. Now? *shrug* So long as you don't overuse it and create an unfair writing environment with it, it shouldn't be a problem. Especially since you already mentioned that it's no more powerful than a Heavy Long Range Hypervelocity cannon.



Anyway! I'm said my peace. I know there are at least two other writers that have voiced concern over this design. So... you can speak your two cents or not. But it's open for discussion from both sides of the fence.

 

[J3C0]

I followed the Starship template given by SWRP Staff.

Also, to your other point about flagships. We were disallowed form using these threads in the creation of a Flagship. Knowing that, we decided to create this instead. It's also important to remember that this submission could be seen as a "first" Draft and will undoubtedly undergo some edits. Will they majorly change the ship? Probably not since it has nearly 400 posts of development, but some things will change.

-Shrugs-

 

[Valiens Nantaris]

[member="Ceran Moerelle"]
Except that flagship dev threads need:

The requirements of the Flagship thread are as follows:

a. The thread must be a minimum of 400 posts.

b. There must be at least 7 writers actively involved in the thread.

c. The thread is public and is open to any other Major Faction to join.

d. The production - or possession - of the Flagship must be the thread's major focal point.

It's not a flagship therefore, and since it's only 2000m it could be built without such a thread.

The Immortals ship will not be, I am certain, accepted unless it is unique, but that's for reasons of balance. If it's accepted.

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

Any ship with a Flag Officer embarked. That is, some variant of Admiral. A commodore by contrast merits a 'pennant.'

Oh you meant by this forum's definition.

The way I see it the trade-off here is that by rights it could twice as large and (and scary) if it were unique. Bear in mind under the new rules a 3000m ship takes all of 30 posts. So the ship(s?) are making people nervous really because of that Proton Cannon, except it's already qualified to fit in the current weapon scale. So the end goal, if I'm not mistaken, is to make something different because different is cooler.

Which is perfectly understandable. That's the same reason I wanted HVCs.

What if there were a hard number? Like two or four of them, or something? Of course with that limit I'd also try and make them 3000m, but I like my Battleships.

 

[J3C0]

[member="Valiens Nantaris"] Those necessary changes would have been added to the threads in the long term. However we were forbidden from doing so before hand because it would have given us an unfair advantage. Were well aware of these rules.

As for its acceptance, again, i'm sure edits will be made. I see Factory submissions as a negotiations. You post beyond what you want(Within reason), and between yourself and the factory judge you find an acceptable compromise.

 

[Darth Carnifex]

 

[Cyrus Tregessar]

On second thought, avoid making only two. Pairs of 'super-ships' have a habit of not doing well. I'm looking at you Bismarck/Tirpitz Yamato/Musashi.

 

[Captain Larraq]

Any ship with a Flag Officer embarked. That is, some variant of Admiral. A commodore by contrast merits a 'pennant.'

Oh you meant by this forum's definition.

The way I see it the trade-off here is that by rights it could twice as large and (and scary) if it were unique. Bear in mind under the new rules a 3000m ship takes all of 30 posts. So the ship(s?) are making people nervous really because of that Proton Cannon, except it's already qualified to fit in the current weapon scale. So the end goal, if I'm not mistaken, is to make something different because different is cooler.

Which is perfectly understandable. That's the same reason I wanted HVCs.

What if there were a hard number? Like two or four of them, or something? Of course with that limit I'd also try and make them 3000m, but I like my Battleships.

I'm pretty sure it's the 1,800 guns, 150 missile launchers, 175 point defense, and ~168 launch craft at at minor production that concerns people. Not the beam weapon or the length.

 

[Nyxie]

Me? I don't really care. I could beat three of these things so badly with a handful of frigates and cruisers that the opposing writer abandons the thread. And I'm likely not the only one who could do so.

We're just here to have fun, not whip out the yardsticks.

Edit: That came out odd. I meant that I agree with the quote, and don't think it's a huge issue.

 

[Captain Larraq]

We're just here to have fun, not whip out the yardsticks.

I like my yardstick, thank you very much.

 

[Hailyn]

If this is about flagships as a whole, it is any ship that is 2000 meters in length and above with the appropriated features of such a large ship.

If this is about this ship mentioned briefly, please refrain from causing panic before it has even been touched by judges. There will likely be changes found, both significant and otherwise, but those decisions will be made once the factory is open. I understand that such a bold submission may be unnerving, but it is not quite as big an issue as it has been made out to be. As it has been said before, the submission was made intentionally to ask for more than they wanted, not what they saw as being entirely fair or deserving.

 

[Danger Arceneau]

Here's an idea.

Let the factory judges do their work.

And if that isn't enough.

Let the factory admins do their work.

 

[Captain Larraq]

If this is about flagships as a whole, it is any ship that is 2000 meters in length and above with the appropriated features of such a large ship.

If this is about this ship mentioned briefly, please refrain from causing panic before it has even been touched by judges. There will likely be changes found, both significant and otherwise, but those decisions will be made once the factory is open. I understand that such a bold submission may be unnerving, but it is not quite as big an issue as it has been made out to be. As it has been said before, the submission was made intentionally to ask for more than they wanted, not what they saw as being entirely fair or deserving.

It's both. Kinda. The thread points heavily at the OS's submission with the intention of creating a base point for 'this is a flagship.' Even with a 20% reduction in weaponry and 50% reduction in hanger capacity... This submission still skirts the lower ranges of "What needs to be a flagship, and what can be a normal ship?" By reviewing this submission publicly, we can bring attention to where exactly the fine line between a flagship and a normal submission exists.

 

[Hailyn]

By reviewing this submission publicly, we can bring attention to where exactly the fine line between a flagship and a normal submission exists.

By this logic any submission that rests on the border should be viewed by the public rather than the group of volunteers chosen specifically to review and judge these submissions. You can't have it both ways, this is a submission in the factory to be reviewed by the factory judges and then by the Factory Admin. If you find fault with our judgement once it has been made, you can lobby a complaint against us at that point. If you have a complaint or suggestion on making this submission better, you are better off PMing the writer to privately discuss this rather than trying to ruffle the feathers of both the writer and the factory. They will be judged just as fairly as every other member whom are reviewed.

 

[Danger Arceneau]

Not really.

Again, let the Judges do their job.

Factory is closed right now and other than that --- no need to discuss it beyond the Judge who will be judging it and the Factory Admin involved who will second approve it.

It is their job, not the boards, to oversee what matter of tech, ships, and whathaveyou to give options without dev threads, with dev threads, and then suggestions after reviewing.

Freaking out over a sub that hasn't even been judged, let alone approved by a factory admin is really just overstressing when none need to be.

 

[Judas of Vahl]

[member="Captain Larraq"]

It's not a big deal. I'll be the one reviewing this submission anyways.

I'll judge it to suit both the writer's and the board's needs/wants. If it becomes an issue in a roleplay later, that's when the RPJs come in and are able to nerf it.

Have a little faith in our playerbase as respectable and moderate people. They're actually pretty nice fellas and gals.

 

[Captain Larraq]

By this logic any submission that rests on the border should be viewed by the public rather than the group of volunteers chosen specifically to review and judge these submissions.

No. Just the first.

You can't have it both ways, this is a submission in the factory to be reviewed by the factory judges and then by the Factory Admin.

At what point did I imply otherwise?

If you find fault with our judgement once it has been made, you can lobby a complaint against us at that point.

I plan to. Thank you for you approval on the matter.

If you have a complaint or suggestion on making this submission better, you are better off PMing the writer to privately discuss this rather than trying to ruffle the feathers of both the writer and the factory.

That is not the intent of this thread, nor this discussion.

I'm not trying to ruffle anything. I was pulled aside specifically and spoken to about this submission.

They will be judged just as fairly as every other member whom are reviewed.

Also, fair judging is subject to several variations dependent on which 'volunteer' steps up to review a submission. This has been a source of enough discussion that a public disclaimer on the matter was made.

 

[Nyxie]

Silara Vantai, on 24 Nov 2014 - 9:02 PM, said: If you find fault with our judgement once it has been made, you can lobby a complaint against us at that point.

I plan to. Thank you for you approval on the matter.

Calm thy teats or I'll lobby a complaint against this thread.

Telling a judge that you are going to file a complaint against them, in a sarcastic manner no less, is probably not the best way to go about not ruffling anything.

 

[Captain Larraq]

Telling a judge that you are going to file a complaint against them, in a sarcastic manner no less, is probably not the best way to go about not ruffling anything.

I keep an eye on what goes on in the factory. I speak up when bad or unfair calls are made. If a bad call is made here, it will be no different than if I notice a problem any other time.

Also. I ruffle when ruffled.

Because jibblies.

 

[Mrrew]

I speak up when bad or unfair calls are made.

No calls have been made, man....

It hasn't even been judged yet. Perhaps after it's been judged, if you still feel things are unfair, you can talk to a judge or admin. But until then, why don't you wait and see what happens? You may be pleasantly surprised.