Suggestion Vassal state rules update

[Annika Starfire]

The Dark Empire usage of the Vassal Mandate to try and pinch Alliance territory is super cool and I'm glad someone is using it. But I think the way that it is defended against is the wrong way round.

Currently

"When claiming space occupied by another Major an Invasion can be launched in an attempt to block the claim. If this faction fails they lose 2 Hexes"

I think a better way would be

"When claiming space occupied by another Major an Invasion must be launched in order to seize the territory. If this faction fails they lose two hexes."

This makes more narrative sense that the attacker that is trying to steal the territory is the one invading and doesn't rely on the defender declaring the invasion. If the defender can't declare an invasion for whatever reason, the territory can be taken without recourse. Or someone with the mandate saying they can only be invaded once per month could be invaded, but them also vassal attacked theoretically.

The way it is worded too sounds like it means that if the defender declares the invasion and fails to block the territory, it stands to lose 5 hexes in total, as it will lose the vassalled space and then two more.

Missed the mandate update thread Srina Talon ​

 

[Srina Talon]

I can see your initial concern but...

What would stop a major faction from attempting to block the claim unless they choose to let the opposing major faction take the territory without defending it? That's a decision for a faction to make and accept any in game consequences that follow.

Unless you have concerns about a MF not having the activity to defend against it... But that's a whole other story - not a mandate concern.

I'm also not sure where the 5 hex loss comes from but I suspect that adding a slight clarification can clear that up. Something to the effects of "the initiating faction" would do.

As the MFOs know.... If they need help with a rule or a mandate they can always ask. If a faction is abusing a potential loophole - That's something we can discuss too.

 

[Annika Starfire]

Hi, so to answer a couple of points

What would stop a major faction from attempting to block the claim unless they choose to let the opposing major faction take the territory without defending it?

So an example would be say if the GA decided it was going to invade the TSO. The TSO, having vassal as it's mandate couls then say, OK you are invading us. So we are going to turn three of your core hexes into a TSO vassal.

Because the rules state a faction can only initiate one invasion at a time, all the GA can do is so, OK they are all yours. I guess our PDFs were napping.


Then there is the wording, it's the order of the sentences

When claiming space occupied by another Major an Invasion can be launched in an attempt to block the claim. If this faction fails they lose 2 Hexes.

Trigger - vassal claim made
Action - faction declares invasion to defend
Result - faction fails (in their invasion)
Punishment - loses 2 hexes (they are already losing 3 that turn into a vassal)


The issue is less mechanical anyway and more narrative. Purely for example and not inviting political commentary but under these rules the russo-ukranian war would legally be "the Ukrainian invasion of russia"

 

[Srina Talon]

I don't want this to degenerate into rules lawyering but I do want to answer adequately.

Mandates often are designed to override typical rule-sets and that's no different here. (Ex. Factions can normally invade for two hexes taking the path of least resistance back to the main cloud but there are mandates (Total War) that provide as many as possible 6 hex gains or losses. Take Relentless Horde as well...It allows that faction to invade two simultaneously.)

So an example would be say if the GA decided it was going to invade the TSO. The TSO, having vassal as it's mandate couls then say, OK you are invading us. So we are going to turn three of your core hexes into a TSO vassal.

Because the rules state a faction can only initiate one invasion at a time, all the GA can do is so, OK they are all yours. I guess our PDFs were napping.

That's not going to be a penalty imposed.

It would be wild of us to do that when we don't do it with any other mandate that alters the standard rules.

Just like I stated above, mandates deliberately supersede the standard rule set and allow factions to do things that they otherwise wouldn't be able to do. Is it currently possible that two factions with Vassal States could land in the same target at the same time? Is it possible that the defender might need to deal with this from more than one source? Yes. Unlikely, but yes. It's hampered by a 60 day cooldown and the general consensus of the community that we can tell engaging stories without beating up on each other. It's built into the mandate that the defending faction has the option to block the claim. We're not taking that away just like we wouldn't suddenly tell a faction they can only have 2 hexes (standard) when their mandate gives them 6.

Then there is the wording, it's the order of the sentences

When claiming space occupied by another Major an Invasion can be launched in an attempt to block the claim. If this faction fails they lose 2 Hexes.

Trigger - vassal claim made
Action - faction declares invasion to defend
Result - faction fails (in their invasion)
Punishment - loses 2 hexes (they are already losing 3 that turn into a vassal)

There's a lot of mental gymnastics here taking a strong leap in the wrong direction, however, we're already working on updating the wording a little. I'm a fan of things making sense...And if it doesn't a look-over doesn't hurt.

If anyone has questions about the intention in the interim, etc, feel free to ask.