The Introduction of Territory Swapping/Demilitarised Zones

[RIP Carlyle Rausgeber]

The major factions of this board act remarkably like the colonial empires of old. They constantly snap up territory through dominions and are ever expanding entities which often grow large enough to wage war with one another. However, unlike the old empires, Chaos doesn't allow major factions access to some of the diplomatic tools historically used.

What I am talking about here, is the ability to give territory. Now, while I am in full understanding that such a system to be able to be freely given some territory is something that should be closely regulated, I believe there is an ability for this to be added, and that there is some benefit to this.

One of the benefits for example is the mitigation of warfare on a faction. For example, say Faction A is in the midst of writing a massive faction-wide story arc, and Faction B wants to invade and wage war simply to secure a better position on the map. Perhaps even access to a canon planet, or simply to be able to secure more territory. What options are there for Faction A? Like it or not Faction A has to fight an invasion which derails their storyline for the duration of the incursion. So rather than have that happen, A agrees to give B a hex, or a smorgasbord of planets.

Other than being used as a tool to appease, said land grabs could settle conflicts. It allows for major factions with no wish to continue to contest a large scale campaign which may just be them haemorraging hexes. This gives them a back out strategy. It could be a stop-gap measure to help them lick their wounds. Or a long term solution, allowing them to proceed to work their way to rebuilding.

The second suggestion I offer is that of demilitarised zones. I personally believe it would be a cool idea, for two factions who had previously been at war, being able to organise an agreement to demilitarise certain planets, and by extension negate the codex entries for any military bases within that. I think this being added as caveats to a ceasefire or peace treaties would be an interesting addition, in the sense it'd be like the Treaty of Versailles.

Ultimately, what I believe in, is that planets should be able to be traded. Diplomacy lacks any real powers on this site. There is no bite. No action that can offer any real solutions. And even then, despite this proposed change and suggestion, a vengeful faction could be vindictive enough to invade another off of the map. But personally, I would like to see more Treaties of Versailles, and more interesting IC-politicking. Please post below, I would be more than happy to hear any thoughts or suggestions you guys have. Because to be perfectly honest, at the time I'm writing this, I'm probably not the most articulate.

 

[Alric Kuhn]

I think the rules would have to be refined and worked out a bit, but I'm 100% on board.

Sounds like a neat and fun avenue for story.

 

[Kira Vaal]

[member="Carlyle Rausgeber"]
These are actually amazing ideas!

It would as stated need a bit of work done to the existing rules but in context it would open a much more exciting side-system. I endorse this.

 

[Darlyn Excron]

It would certainly need a lot of work to figure it all out, no doubt about it. Trading wise, I can't really imagine gifting hexes would become much of a thing, but I could definitely see maybe a planet here or there, something that actually provides some sort of 'reward' for actual political negotiations. Sure faction A and B could easily write up an agreement of some sort to 'gift' a planet or two to their invaders to cease hostilities but it's not like it'd be very, how does one say, effective?

Hell technically you can do it now, but you'd have to setup an invasion, and one side purposely would have to 'lose' to end whatever conflicts are actually going on, but it's messier in terms of what has to be put into it to get it all taken care of.. it's technically possible but so, so messy to deal with.

And demilitarized zones just makes me think of things like the DMZ between North and South Korea and ask myself "Why isn't this a thing here?"

I mean case and point the GA and FO are making the borders kiss now, plenty of opportunities for genuine political RP but almost no real power. Wasted, wasted potential if you ask me.


And if I'm not particularly well thought out I've been awake for far too long and I apologize.

 

[Micah Talith]

[member="Carlyle Rausgeber"]

You should make these polls public. It helps in determining the members that are voting. xD

Neat idea though.

 

[Valessia Brentioch]

[member="Carlyle Rausgeber"]

You sing to me my sweet child, I recall attempting to do something like this when I first got here. So yes, I am 100% on board for this - it adds a unique aspect of story and creates more dynamics between factions instead of just outright invasions and I would like to see this done as I feel this could help sustain major factions for a longer duration.

 

[Netherworld]

[member="Carlyle Rausgeber"]

As far as 'gifting' planets goes, you can arguably achieve such diplomatic resolutions through the invasion system itself.
The name is, admittedly, misleading, but you could totally discuss and then execute a 'diplomatic invasion' thread. Instead of having people beat each other, you have people hashing out the terms of the treaty.

At the end of the invasion, the 'winning' faction would get the planets, while the story itself would be exactly what you described – exchange of territory in an effort to achieve some sort of peace, or placate an invading faction.

IMO it's totally doable in the current system. Nowhere in the rules does it say that an invasion absolutely has to include fighting.


As for the demilitarized zones, I'm not sure you'd need any additional rules for that. As far as Codex entries go, you can always sub a modification if, say, the military base was converted to something else, or simply note that it was destroyed/demilitarized/whatever.

It would just require that the factions involved reach this kind of agreement OOC and then write it out IC, and you're golden.

My two cents.

 

[Fatty]

I agree that gifting planets, or merely swapping territory authority is definitely a lacking element that has been lacking for a long time, and something that I don't think needed to be outlawed. The reason for why it was outlawed was due to the age of Faction Merges incorporating old territory from the merging faction, which became a problem because we'd have a faction that would die in activity, and then would just give whatever faction they would migrate to a few planets for free with almost no work done. (At least that is how I remember the rules to be).

Technically it can be done, but as mentioned it is messy (and honestly a prefer messy for realistic resistance from the populations being affected by the changes and those who sympathize), so this could be an easier way of going about it which would make such instances more common so people don't have to deal with the complications of setting up these sorts of agreements.

I do not exactly agree with the proposed idea of "Demilitarization zones" that erase or otherwise negate codex entries associated with words, as that can be technically done now without the need of extra rules, and besides, that should be a choice of the factions involved, and whether or not they decide to honor the agreement (nations break their own agreements all the time if they think they can get away with it).

So that's my take on the proposal here.

 

[Elpsis Kerrigan]

As far as 'gifting' planets goes, you can arguably achieve such diplomatic resolutions through the invasion system itself. The name is, admittedly, misleading, but you could totally discuss and then execute a 'diplomatic invasion' thread. Instead of having people beat each other, you have people hashing out the terms of the treaty.

Agreed. The Mandalorian Clans and the Republic actually did that way back. Both factions got into a dom race for Ord Mantell, then OS went major and attacked the Republic.


So the Republic launched a 'diplomatic invasion' of Ord Mantell that was about them handing over the planet to the Mandalorians, since ICly having a two-front war would have been a bad idea for them. So this is something that can be accomplished within the present system.


Hell, way back the Mandalorians decided to give up most of their territory as part of a story arc involving a civil war with Death Watch. Granted, in that case the planets they conceded went neutral instead of being handed over to another faction, but it's another precedent. All it takes is two factions wanting to write a story beyond simply cracking skulls. Territorial concessions, arms limitation statutes, disarmament agreements and so on are all quite doable.

 

[Avalore Eden]

It's a neat concept but it is something you can already do.

Hell technically you can do it now, but you'd have to setup an invasion, and one side purposely would have to 'lose' to end whatever conflicts are actually going on, but it's messier in terms of what has to be put into it to get it all taken care of.. it's technically possible but so, so messy to deal with.

Diplomacy can take place within invasions. There is no rule saying that invasions have to be a battle/war over a planet and it certainly doesn't have to be messy. In certain circumstances a diplomatic invasion might not appeal to as many as a war-front invasion, but it's still an option. I've both seen and taken part in massive diplomatic threads that had they been labeled as a dominion or an invasion, a planet could have been gained/given.

Why not try it out? Talk to your faction leaders and see if they'd be willing to test out a diplomatic invasion of a single planet? It might not work beween FO and GA due to the present war between them, but it might work between other factions. Create objectives based around a peaceful treaty, humanitarian efforts, world-building efforts (develop an embassy), craft alliance solutions, etc. Totally doable.

 

[Elpsis Kerrigan]

Following fanciful scenario meant to illustrate this on an example:


The Galactic Republic/Alliance/Confederation/Army of Light/Coalition of the Willing has defeated the Sith Empire after a long, brutal struggle. However, they lack the desire to occupy all Imperial territory and are tired. Instead, they impose the Treaty of Alderaan, intending to cripple the Empire and prevent it from rising again for the foreseeable future:

• The Empire must submit to an arms limitation statute and is prohibited from building or possessing warships larger than 1km. An Allied Control Commission will monitor the disarmament process.
• The Empire must pay an indemnity of X credits (granted that's fluff since we have no economy system and it would probably be too much of a headache to make one).
• The Empire must vacate the Korriban system, which will be placed under allied occupation. The Sith Academy will be destroyed and the dangerous dark side artefact called the Soul Devourer will be put in Jedi custody.
• and other stuff.

Unsurprisingly, many Imperials are unhappy with this 'Dictate'. Unrest and revanchism ensues. Lacking the means to go on the offensive so soon, the Imperial military begins to secretly rearm for round two. In the process they reach out to their good friends, the Mandalorians, who just went through a revolution and also have reason to be disgruntled with the galactic balance of power.

 

[Teynara Jeralyr]

Following scenario:


The Galactic Republic/Alliance/Confederation/Army of Light/Coalition of the Willing has defeated the Sith Empire after a long, brutal struggle. However, they lack the desire to occupy all Imperial territory and are tired. Instead, they impose the Treaty of Alderaan, intending to cripple the Empire and prevent it from rising again for the foreseeable future:

• The Empire must submit to an arms limitation statute and is prohibited from building or possessing warships larger than 1km. An Allied Control Commission will monitor the disarmament process.
• The Empire must pay an indemnity of X credits (granted that's fluff since we have no economy system and it would probably be too much of a headache to make one).
• The Empire must vacate the Korriban system, which will be placed under allied occupation. The Sith Academy will be destroyed and the dangerous dark side artefact called the Soul Devourer will be put in Jedi custody.
• and other stuff.

Unsurprisingly, many Imperials are unhappy with this 'Dictate'. Unrest and revanchism ensues. Lacking the means to go on the offensive so soon, the Imperial military begins to secretly rearm for round two. In the process they reach out to their good friends, the Mandalorians, who just went through a revolution and also have reason to be disgruntled with the galactic balance of power.

[member="Elpsis Elaris"] I think you'd be told to take a running jump off the nearest cliff, possibly with a helping hand from a few Sith

As far as the thread itself is concerned, I rather like the idea: our system is very much set up to approach Major Faction interplay with war/battle, but a more diplomatic system that could be used with IC consequences (and that wasn't 99% OOC oriented) would be fantastic. FO's talk to each other a lot, and this is great, but it'd be better if we could see more IC use of diplomacy, more conversation and consequence, and more map fluctuations based on this. I think that'd be really something.

Also: why not blockades which have consequential effect? A blockade gets put into place by a faction around a given planet, and that cuts the planet off from the influence cloud of the faction it belongs to, but does not grant ownership of that planet to the Faction engaging in blockade. It does, however, require the owning faction to re-invade/dominion it as a counter to the Blockade: essentially, in order to keep it, they have to recapture it. And there'd be plenty of IC consequences: imagine if a shipyard world, or a major faction centre (e.g. Korriban, for TRE) was put under blockade? It'd open up a few possibilities.

Just a thought

 

[Elpsis Kerrigan]

Elpsis Elaris I think you'd be told to take a running jump off the nearest cliff, possibly with a helping hand from a few Sith

That was the benign version. I think a number of my chars would favour a Carthaginian Peace (post-Third Punic War). Or the Morgenthau Plan.


[member="Tirdarius"]


Speaking more seriously, I think it shows there's plenty of options for interaction between factions that go beyond conventional invasions, rebellions and so on. Unequal treaties!

 

[Tefka]

We're listening.

That's all any Staff member will have to say at this time.

 

[Ashin Varanin]

In principle, this could be really cool. I'm going to take a swing at fleshing out one small aspect of it, just to see what it might look like. Let's see...

MAJOR FACTION PLANET EXCHANGE
Faction One: (Type the name of the Faction that is giving Planet One to Faction Two, with zero discrepancies.)
Planet One: (Type the name of the planet that Faction One is giving to Faction Two. Must already be on the SWRP Chaos map. Must be no more than 2 hexes away from Faction Two.)
Faction Two: (Type the name of the Faction that is giving Planet Two to Faction One, with zero discrepancies.)
Planet Two: (Type the name of the planet that Faction Two is giving to Faction One. Must already be on the SWRP Chaos map. Must be no more than 2 hexes away from Faction One.)
Link to IC Thread: (Please link the IC thread that outlines the peaceful or hostile circumstances of the planet exchange.)
Major Faction Owners: (Type the name of the owners of Factions One and Two.)

 

[Kamon Vondiranach]

Happens in real life so why not?

 

[Ardgal Raxis]

This idea is pregnant with possibilities (I've been looking for an excuse to say that all week).

First, I think it gives us a reason to see less pew-pew and "lol i r strungr tahn u" and more real story telling. We would see a shift from the classical smash and bash type stuff and maybe even see some awesome diplomats take center stage. At times I think there is too much diplomacy OOC and not enough IC. (I am all for OOC diplomacy, but I think we should see IC stuff to that effect too).

As for the whole de-arming thing with the Codex, I think that [member="Netherworld"] brings up a good point that it can be done simply with Codex mods and tweaking. So, what if we married the two ideas? Make a fast, effective way for Codex subs to be tweaked by their owners en mass so that they can do diplomatic things. I dunno if that'd be possible but its an idea.

I think this is a great discussion that we could (and should) have here.

 

[Tyberius Fel]

I believe this could be an excellent gateway to formal peace treaties to end wars, which could include such things as reparations, force demilitarization and the fore-mentioned territorial concessions and de-militarized zones. Hopefully this can result in more long lasting ramifications for conflicts and much more useful roleplay potential for more politically oriented characters.

I'm all for it.

 

[Grrwunhoooll Agaburry]

I dont understand the concept but if it will make the map look more "Pretty" than sure.

 

[RIP Carlyle Rausgeber]

it's not like it'd be very, how does one say, effective?

That's true, it'd be a bit like robbing Paul to pay Peter. But the fact is, is that would be at least able to bide some time for Faction A to maybe finish up any stories they had.

As far as 'gifting' planets goes, you can arguably achieve such diplomatic resolutions through the invasion system itself. The name is, admittedly, misleading, but you could totally discuss and then execute a 'diplomatic invasion' thread. Instead of having people beat each other, you have people hashing out the terms of the treaty.

I to be perfectly frank, hadn't considered this an option. I had assumed that this sort of exchange would not be allowed. I would have thought that that would have been too difficult to appropriately judge. Diplomacy, unlike warfare would be something very difficult to judge. Particularly if the criteria regards writing.

I do not exactly agree with the proposed idea of "Demilitarization zones" that erase or otherwise negate codex entries associated with words, as that can be technically done now without the need of extra rules, and besides, that should be a choice of the factions involved, and whether or not they decide to honor the agreement (nations break their own agreements all the time if they think they can get away with it).

I totally agree with this statement. When I wrote up OP last night, I was a rambling mess, and the DMZ was really just tacked on at the end. I was tired and figured, "Hey, that'd be pretty good." Of course it would ultimately be up to the factions involved as to whether they follow their own terms. But I think simply having this enshrined, and showing that this is a norm of inter-faction interaction, it would serve to help. As someone later notes in the thread, if we could make edits to codex locations easier, it would serve in assisting this.

Also: why not blockades which have consequential effect? A blockade gets put into place by a faction around a given planet, and that cuts the planet off from the influence cloud of the faction it belongs to, but does not grant ownership of that planet to the Faction engaging in blockade. It does, however, require the owning faction to re-invade/dominion it as a counter to the Blockade: essentially, in order to keep it, they have to recapture it. And there'd be plenty of IC consequences: imagine if a shipyard world, or a major faction centre (e.g. Korriban, for TRE) was put under blockade? It'd open up a few possibilities.

You know what? This. This needs to be a thing. Like, actually a thing. If you're up for it, I'd be more than happy to make another suggestion thread, or I could tack it on as apart of this.