Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

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Rebellions and Minor Factions

Another deliberation of a friendly neighborhood writer.

So I was looking over some of the more under utlilized aspects of the Map game and their relation to Minor factions, and that is Rebellions. As of now, they are more or less obsolete and do little to impact the Map. While glossing over the Rebellion Rules there were some points I noted that I think could be fleshed out, some aspects modified to make things far more interesting. To precede this I would suggest making it so that any two of the three dominions done by a Major faction every month should be opened up to being vulnerable to Rebellion. The current system where you only get 1 opportunity a month (And a very difficult opportunity to get considering 80% of the Major factions can barely get to or easily do 3 dominions a month) makes it extremely difficult to utilize Rebellions in general. Just keep that in mind and hold any thoughts you have until you read over the rest of the suggestion.

First and foremost, the thing I picked up when looking at the Rebellion rules was the first bullet point - 'Rebellions allow Minor Factions to claim or neutralize Major Factions’ territory.' They key word here being claim. So I don't have enough pretext and clarity regarding this, but I thought Minor factions were not allowed to have any territory on the map, thus having no veritable presence on it, so this was a point I thought could be reworked/revamped into something a little more interesting. What if, when a Rebellion is declared and the Minor faction is successful in rebelling that territory and taking it from the Major faction, they can hold onto those hexes that they have successfully rebelled and add it to a pool of space that the Major faction is unable to dominion/'invade' for an x period of time. This gives Minor factions some presence and ability to effect the map. This space can be held onto by the Minor faction for the future, and if they decide to go Major, the number of hexes they successfully rebelled can be added to their initial starting pool of hexes when going Major.

For example - Minor Faction A decides they want to be a thorn in a Major Faction B's side and rebel their territory to stop their expansion. Over the course of a few months they successfully rebel 5 hexes, thus denying 5 hexes from the Major Faction B. Minor Faction A decides to go Major and in addition to their 3 starting hexes, they get 5 hexes of their choosing in the space they decide to set up shop. If they move to a different section of the map, the 5 hexes that were locked from the Major Faction B before can now be opened up for Major faction B to do dominions.

Targets of Rebellions - Keeping in mind the point of opening up 2/3 dominions to being vulnerable to rebellions, I think that the target of the Rebellion should be as soon as the dominion goes up, rather than the 10 day period after it is submitted for judgement. This can liven up the dominions by making them more interesting and a source of conflict between Major/Minor factions. I'm not quite sure what the point is of rebelling territory belonging to a recalled Major faction currently as it will get swept under the rug in future dominions anyways. Unless the point above is implemented, then being able to rebel recalled Major faction's territory would actually become pertinent and useful.

Rebellion Declarations, I think are fine as is, as is their judgement being the same as mini invasions. I think that the need for a minimum minor faction age should be lifted under the stipulation that you cannot declare a rebellion on territory that is in a 3-4 hex radius around the Major Faction's capital hex. It makes more sense that it'd be significantly more difficult to try and rebel a territory around the capital hex where influence would likely be the heaviest, likewise territory farther away from the capital hex would probably be easier to rebel. I think that having the option for multiple Minor factions to jump in on a Rebellion is perfectly fine, as it can perhaps build up collaborative efforts from multiple Minor factions with similar goals and perhaps result in them merging to have a larger and more cohesive member base when going Major if they ever decide to go Major.

Major Faction Recalls - This point is fairly moot if the only way a Major faction can avoid being recalled is winning 2 separate rebellions within 2 weeks. This has three reasons -
1) Any faction, Major or Minor, can simply wait 2 weeks and wait for the recalled Major to be removed from the map before going in.
2) No Minor or even Major factions actively utilize Rebellions because there is no benefit to them in 'taking' recalled Major territory since they can't hold it or it will just be the point of dominion once recalled.
3) Major factions can't hold any territory that isn't directly connected to their cloud of influence, so unless there are some extremely valuable hexes of any worth right up against their border, there is no reason to launch a rebellion to claim it.


Just a few of the current deliberations I've had while seeing how to improve and make the Map game more interesting. As it stands now we lose more Major factions as they pop up, giving Minor factions a hefty advantage (Claiming/Denying territory without needing to worry about getting invaded)/incentive for utilizing Rebellions prior to going Major will perhaps give them a much more stable and better chance at remaining Major. If there is anything that sounds confusing and could use more clarification, feel free to let me know and I'll do my best to make it more clear. If you have nothing constructive to say, then leave it to yourself please.
 
I actually like the ideas you have brought forth. Here is why.

The idea of having 2/3 Dominions in a month, with the current iteration of the map game, feels fair. The current Major factions that can currently reach the 3 doms a month to my knowledge, are the CIS, and the TSE, with SJO following as a third potential choice. That there, is your three biggest factions on the board. So big in fact, that they cover nearly half of the map with just the three of them. They are so big, and have enough activity, that any kind of minor faction that could potentially fight them, would have be a Minor faction that had enough people to reasonably combat them. Making these minor factions have an easier chance to strike at the Majors can really open the map to the Minors even more, and allow them to make choices on which Doms they want to attack, rather than relying on it being a Third one.

Opening up the chance for these minor factions to also be "At any point while the thread is active" makes sense to exist alongside the idea of 2/3 doms can be rebelled.

As for the last section you had, I still need to think on it a bit more to see how the Major factions could combat this. And try to find an even ground between the two. I will have to get back to you on that.

Otherwise, I enjoy the idea, I like the thoughts, and want to see more of this.
 
[member="Kor Vexen"]

Before I weigh in, just want to clear up some apparent confusion over the rebellion rules and why they are the way they are. The first point to make is that your interpretation of the minor faction win conditions is incomplete. Yes you are correct that minor factions are not allowed their own territory, what this rule means is that if the minor faction wins its rebellion and so chooses it can immediately become a major faction using the hex it has claimed. Why is this useful? Because it bypasses the major faction application requirements. The faction does not have to be approved by a site staff vote, does not have to meet minimum member or activity requirements, the only approval necessary is a victorious judgment for the thread. This is how Corellia joined the map, for example.

Now let's talk about why rebellions are so limited. Unfortunately the rules are the way they are because when rebellions were valid for any hex certain groups would find a friendly minor faction and dump a bunch of alts in so they could open a second front against their faction rivals. Obviously the extent to which this was a real problem is debatable but it certainly seemed bad enough that staff made the rules changes they did. I'm not sure how reasonable or paranoid this perspective is but I would imagine there are some people around here reluctant to adopt such a change for exactly this reason.

All that being said, while I am not sure about the whole "freeze territory out" mechanic that you propose, I agree with your basic point. The rules that we have now are not ideal. In most situations where a minor would be interested in rebellion, the cause is a specific planet or region. All a major faction has to do in order to bypass rebellions entirely is to plan their dominions so that the third of the month (if they even get there) is an unimportant hex that nobody would be willing to go to war over. IMO, the rebellion mechanics as they exist right now are a fancy way of saying rebellions are not allowed except for recalled space.

Why am I not sure about your solution? Its an interesting idea, but my concern is that it runs into the same problem that caused Chaos to tighten its rebellion restrictions in the first place. Whether the territory is 'claimed', 'neutralized', or 'frozen out' what a minor faction is achieving has the same kind of potential for abuse. A competitor could manufacture conflict with the aim of slowing the rebelled faction's dominion/expansion progress. Again I'm not sure if this is really the inevitable nightmare scenario that the rules were designed to protect from, but its something to consider if you're looking for community buy in.
 
I can get behind allowing 2 (or even all 3) dominions for rebellion.

Your first suggestion is made sort of moot by the current rebellion rules that already immediately grant the minor faction that wins the choice to either go major immediately or not go major and just turn that hex "neutral".
 
[member="Braith Achlys"] [member="Zark"]

Admittedly, the rule is about as clear as red clay mud on that that is what Rebellions do. Honestly, the fact that it doesn’t say that’s what happens make it seem like it needs to be revised anyway. Personally though, if they’re trying to get a more dynamic map game, I don’t see the issue in expanding minor faction options.
 

Fiolette Fortan

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[member="Kalic Daws"]

It actually says it right at the top...

REBELLION RULES
  • Rebellions allow Minor Factions to claim or neutralize Major Factions’ territory.


^

Provided they win.
 
[member="Ryssa Yvarro"] I mean they say you can claim it, but it doesn’t say you become a major faction. That’s where the confusion comes in. It’s implied, but not clearly.
 

Fiolette Fortan

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[member="Kalic Daws"]

Yes it does, at the bottom.

If a Minor Faction successfully wins a Rebellion against a Recalled Major Faction and chooses to go Major they may start with up to 3 contiguous hexes total from that Recalled Major Faction. This may not include the recalled faction's capital.
 
It has also already happened a number of times in the past.

Case in point: Sith Triumvirate (rebelled against Techno Union, won, went major), Royal House of Alderaan/Free Worlds Coalition (rebelled against Mandalorian Clans, won, went major), Corellian Confederation (rebelled against New Republic, won, went major).
 
Bunker-level Normal
[member="Ryssa Yvarro"]

This isn't really the place it discusses a Minor Faction's ability to go major, just more rules about when it does. For the rules about Minor Factions going major after a Rebellion, we have to look at the Faction rules themselves.

For [member="Kalic Daws"] and anyone else confused:

MINOR FACTIONS

3. Minor Factions who meets the minimum requirements to become a Major Faction may post a request in the Factions forum to be declared a Major Faction. If a Minor Faction is declared the victor of a Rebellion, then that Minor Faction is given the choice of being promoted to Major (and gaining the hex) or remaining minor (reverting the hex to neutral.)
They should be in both rules pages, really, I don't know why it isn't. Chaos's organization can sometimes be...chaotic.
 

Fiolette Fortan

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[member="Captain Jordan"]

Okay one I wasn't discussing that and two, I was copying from the Rebellion page which was where the initial confusion came from. And three, if I wanted to ask a question about minor factions I would ask in Discord not here, but thank you so very much. :)
 
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[member="Ryssa Yvarro"]

Yes, my confusion must have come about from the incorrect answer you gave to someone asking about what rule allows Minor Factions to go major. Clearly we agree on the confusing arrangement of the Rebellion rules page, though.
 

Fiolette Fortan

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[member="Captain Jordan"]

No your confusion is your own, first off.

Second off, within the rebellion page - it does state if the minor faction wins they can go major if they so chose. The wording and placement isn't the same as in the minor faction section itself but it's there. Lastly, as to Kor Vexen's original point, I'm okay with risking two dominions a month for rebellions.
 
[member="Ryssa Yvarro"]

Ok, I’ll admit I was wrong, but maybe that speaks more to the state of Rebellions than anything. And thank you for the list [member="Enyo Typhos"] . Don’t keep up with every thread that happens. Back on topic, yeah. I think boosting the possibility of Rebellions.[member="Zark"] , while I understand your concerns too, not like it can’t happen with Invasions sometime now sadly. Like ya said, not sure how often/if it happens.
 
[member="Zark"]
Upon a more careful inspection, yes it does indeed appear that a Minor can go immediately Major upon successful Rebellions, though the wording of it could be a bit better. I understand that certain aspects of the current rules for Rebellions were added on as a result of certain people doing it for malicious reasons, but 'opening up a second front' as you stated isn't something I have seen since the Rebel Alliance that was set up as a Major right next to the Capital of the Sith Empire for the sole intention of being a disruptive presence capable of launching invasions at the capital. There might have been other instances of this, but none that I can recall any time within recent memory especially with how frequently Major factions are coming and going from the map.

If anything, Rebellions should be opened up to target any of the three potential Dominions a faction is allowed to do a month rather than only the third since most factions aren't even capable of doing three dominons a month, thus giving a lot more opportunity to use them and be disruptive - that is kind of the point of a Rebellion to begin with; being disruptive towards a Major power's growth/expansion. The freezing of territory is to just emulate the IC outcome and be a bit more of an OOC goal to work towards that impacts how the map is played, rather than a Minor having to constantly rebellion the same hex a faction might try to continue to take, it is less strenuous on both sides - and I will also reiterate; this freezing of territory will only be temporary for a variable number of months just so that it can't be kept there permanently like a wall, but give a Minor some time to do more Rebellions and help them accumulate more territory if they ever do decide to go Major.

The statement 'the rebellion mechanics as they exist right now are a fancy way of saying rebellions are not allowed except for recalled space.' is more or less true at this point, but why even bother having rebellions if the only time they ever get used is under extremely particular circumstances that don't have much impact for the Minor or result in them just being thrust into a fire they aren't ready to handle by immediately going Major as a result of their success. They may as well be completely removed as an aspect of Chaos or looked over for potential revisions that make them a usable option. Yes there can be potential for abuse, but given the current nature of Chaos, I feel abuse can be made minimal if implemented correctly.

[member="Braith Achlys"]
I wouldn't say entirely moot. The clarification that [member="Zark"] (Thank you based Zark) provided does make my own suggestion seem redundant by comparison, but I still feel that aspects of my suggestion as a whole could be implemented and more friendly towards Minor factions. Rather than simply taking the opportunity immediately to go Minor to Major without the necessary requirements, they can still potentially build up the amount of territory they can start off with while still building up to a point where they have a comfortable amount of persistent writers to result in the Major faction lasting longer rather than being a 'flash in the pan' type faction that came as a result of simply just jumping into the fire as soon as they won one rebellion. The end goal with my suggestion is to ultimately make it so that Minor factions can remain successful and sustainable as Major factions when they eventually get to that stage rather than being forced to give up potential gained territory and not grabbing Major at the time of winning a Rebellion.

[member="Enyo Typhos"]
You say a number of times, but for the time I have been on Chaos (Roughly over 2 years), only the Corellian Confederation has occurred during my time on Chaos. If it is something that only happens once every couple of years, then I do believe that it would require some tweaks to improve and perhaps be a more viable option for a Minor faction going Major. I can't judge how well the Corellian Confederation is doing since I do not keep track of other Major factions and their health, but if they are well off, then maybe my suggestion doesn't require much consideration. If, and that's if, they aren't doing too well, perhaps its a result of them not having a stable member base or something else that would be needed for a stable Major faction to last long because they just decided to launch themselves into Major status as a result of having to take advantage of a one time opportunity. As I have stated, this is to better gear Minor factions towards becoming successful and stable Major factions rather than being a Major faction that lasts all of three months before kicking the bucket.
 
[member="Kor Vexen"]

Just to clarify, I was simply explaining why the rules are in their current state. I can think of one or two other instances similar to the Rebel Alliance during my time on the site, but I agree they are outliers and would be in favor of opening up rebellions across the board for any dominion.
 

Fiolette Fortan

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[member="Kor Vexen"]

Faction stability has nothing to do with when or how they go major, it's all on the faction's staff and their member base. You can have as many rebellions, or territory frozen up as you'd like at the end of the day if that Faction's staff cannot find a way to remain sustainable then it's okay to go minor. Opening a second front won't necessarily ease the dying of major factions that spring up and move off the map. Inevitably all factions face this dying point and rarely do they ever die gracefully. If we're not seeing so many rebellions it does not mean that the map game isn't working, it is - it's working as intended.

Especially since there are third dominions being turned in therein lies the opportunity for a minor faction to rebel a particular hex. While I do agree that it couldn't hurt to open up the map game to the second dominion but consider a brand new major faction and the possibility of being rebelled within their first go of making dominions. Granted you could say well, they signed up to be major! They should expect it! Wasn't this the same breath we all spoke about when it came to the new major factions being invaded? So then what's the caveat for them?

I feel that personally, we could make a go of this as a mandate.

Example:

"Faction may make one dominion that includes three hexes and it's 150 posts."

"This dominion is subject to rebellion while it is ongoing."

Edit: The Outer Rim Coalition went major after winning their rebellion back when they were simply the Underground / The Kathol Outback.
 
[member="Ryssa Yvarro"]

On the part of the Rebellion happening to new Majors, wasn't there a suggestion of a month or two long grace period (if it's a rule, I couldn't find it). Why not set it up for both invasions and rebellions? Give a major some time to grow.
 

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