Parliament Poll

[Ludolf Vaas]

Who said I had to be impartial? It's my right as a Faction Administrator to warn people as I see fit, and trouble-makers get warnings.

And here I thought faction administrators were supposed to be neutral voices of reason without playing favorites.

Darn it SWRP, joke's on me again!

 

[Darth Carnifex]

*Looks at the system of Planetary Governors already in place.*

Hrm.

*Looks at the fact that I, as one of the longest standing members of the faction since it's inception and a staunch Sith Imperialist am heavily advocating for the creation of a legislative institution within the woefully lacking Imperial Government that would function similarly to the Roman Senate comprised of the Imperial Governors we already have in place.*

Hrm.

*Looks at the executive war council made up of Voices and Hands, who would covertly meddle in the affairs of the lower parliament to try and influence their degree of control within the NFU Imperial section of the Empire*

Hrmmmmm.

Oh yeah, totally too Republic.

Let's throw it all out.

 

[Via Dolorosa]

[member="Darth Vornskr"]

The Founder has spoken!!!!

 

[Shachath]

I'm just here to pay my dues to SWRP. That's why I became a Codex Judge, that's why I'm here doing this. It's about the story and having fun, so I'm sorry if your opinion of me is skewed, but I'd love to chat sometime Ludolf!

Anyway, thank everyone else for being so kind. This really was a group effort and I think the fact that so many players of the OS worked together to hone it and make it something unique was really wonderful.

 

[Ludolf Vaas]

*Looks at the fact that I, as one of the longest standing members of the faction since it's inception and a staunch Sith Imperialist am heavily advocating for the creation of a legislative institution within the woefully lacking Imperial Government that would function similarly to the Roman Senate comprised of the Imperial Governors we already have in place.*

The detractors to this idea are not debating that there should be no form of government. I would love to see the establishment of a government for the faction, but I want it to be in line with who we are as Sith and Imperials.

I question whether the Roman Senate, as cool as it was, is an appropriate thing for us to be modeling ourselves after. More on that in a second.

*Looks at the executive war council made up of Voices and Hands, who would covertly meddle in the affairs of the lower parliament to try and influence their degree of control within the NFU Imperial section of the Empire*

There is nothing inherently wrong with this. I'm reminded of the Dark Council and the Moffs in SWTOR who often were engaged in struggles of power and influence with each other. Some Moffs were in the pocket of certain Sith Lords... and even vice versa. No one is saying that we can't do something like this. It would be cool.

However, reading the thread that [member="Sage Bane"] provided me, it seems that the intentions for this idea have become something else entirely.

You may have envisioned it one way, and that's great, but the talk I see in the thread is that of making the Parliament function like a "democratic republic". Using those exact words. I shouldn't have to explain why this idea totally doesn't fit with the Empire or the Sith, but I will anyway.

Here's the thing. The Galactic Empire, the Sith Empire, and/or whatever galactic organizations the Sith have been involved in, are not democratic republics. They're essentially fascist. They're military dictatorships.

Being democratic is the Republic's job. Not ours.

The idea of the Sith and the Imperial is that of a heirarchy. Ideas like democracy, sharing power, letting everyone have a voice, are completely antithetical to our way, just like they would be antithetical to the belief system of any monarchist, imperialist, or fascist. Power is concentrated in the upper echelons of leadership, and power is only for the deserving. Democracy is based on the idea of equality, whether it be equality of representation, equality of species, or whatever. The Sith DO NOT believe this. Egalitarianism is an idea that completely goes against everything the Sith strive for.

That's not to say there shouldn't be planetary governors (Moffs). There should and I have always advocated this. However, there is no reason for them to be elected. As in the case with the Empire from canon, they should be deserving individuals who are not elected by mob rule, but appointed by an authority figure after sufficient valor, whether it be by the Emperor, the Dark Council, or whoever.

In summary, I'm all for the idea of political intrigue. What I'm not in favor of is turning into a carbon-copy of the Republic, or the US Government, in the process. As cool as things like the US Government, Roman Senate are in real life, in my opinion they are not really the correct things to be basing our faction on, from an ideological standpoint. You don't see the Republic taking influence from Nazi Germany just to "try something cool" or "because change!!".

 

[Darth Carnifex]

Them being elected is something I didn't include in my writing for a legislative and executive body, and whether or not I simply missed it or it was added after I initially viewed it was not something I picked up on.

My idea for the "parliament / senate" was that it'd be comprised solely of Imperial Governors accompanied by a limited delegation from their planet / province, and such Governors were either appointed to the position by high-ranking Military or Sith individuals or had strong-armed their way into becoming the leader of an Imperial world through political subterfuge or out-right military aggression.

I also wrote that this parliament would be NFU only.

[member="Ludolf Vaas"]

 

[Shachath]

The only person elected is the person who runs the Will because it needs an ooc moderator as well as an IC figure-head who to run any sort of proceedings. Sovereign rulers of each planet will still have to be appointed just like they are now, so the difference is they can now convene together.

It's pretty much identical to the Council of Moffs but with a motif that fits the OS, so I'm beginning to think the complaints are unfounded.

The Will is still answerable to and unfailingly loyal to the Dark Lord, the Eye, the Wrath, the Hands AND the Voices. They are a tool through which the Dark Lord's empire is managed, not an independent body that is going to swoop in and overthrow people.

 

[Ludolf Vaas]

my comments in red.

THE DARK LORD - EMPEROR

THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH

THE WAR COUNCIL
Leader(s): The Wrath
Membership: The Hands, The Voices, The Shadows

The War Council is the body of the military/executive charged with coordinating the efforts of the military under the direction of the Wrath. (Where do the actual military leaders fit in here? The Admirals, Generals, etc. Do they get a say as well? I think some elaboration is needed. Also, what is the difference between The Wrath and the Eye of the Dark Lord? I know these weren't created by you, just a general purpose question. From what people have been saying it seems that they are more or less doing the same thing. Furthermore, how do the Hands, the Voices and the Shadows fit in here? What are their different and unique roles on the war council, or in fact in general? Forgive my ignorance but I can't for the life of me keep track of what the separate duties of all these things are. The names make it hard to differentiate because the job description is not in the title. I can't help but think that all these crazy things could be pared down a lot, into some simple and effective council comprising the highest ranking Sith.)


THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH

The Will of the Emperor
The Speaker of His Will
The Speaker is elected by the legislative to be the chair of the body (and also the OOC moderator) identical the UK Speaker of the House of Commons (Is modeling a fascist dictatorship after the UK house of commons really a good comparison? Is he simply a steward of debate like a Speaker of the HoC or does he have actual military authority and supreme power over any territories like a Grand Moff would? Additionally, does he report directly to the Emperor/Dark Lord like a Grand Moff does?). They are basically the Prime Minister (under the Emperor, Eye, Wrath, etc) (How do all of these high ranking positions interact with each other and what are their specific duties? Is the Wrath/Eye just in charge of Sith-related stuff while the Will/Grand Moff is more concerned with implementation of government policies and forces within the direct purview of their territories?)


The Wills (aka. the Will of Tython)
These are the senators/planetary leaders. Each OS and OS sub-faction planet gets one vote in the body. They can make laws, go on diplomatic missions, and help run the government (Moffs basically. I would prefer if they were simply just called that, but that's just me.)

(Also, purely opinion here, but I'm not fond of names like "Executive Branch", "Legislative Branch" etc. It's basically trying to be the U.S. government. The reason why the U.S. government had all of these different branches was because they were about checks and balances and a desire to decentralize leadership - that ain't what we're about.)

 

[Darth Vaildra]

[member="Darth Venefica"]

I use special herbs and spices.

 

[Via Dolorosa]

[member="Lord Sebastian"]

When you say 'special", I hope I don't have to drug test you.

 

[Shachath]

[member="Ludolf Vaas"]
These are all questions for the FA. People wanted something simple so this is the bare bones and the OS can build it however they want like they have everything else.

Legislative and Executive Branches as names are just common-sense terms used for pretty much everything to do with government. I don't make those sorts of rules, society does. I'm not going to waste anyone's time by coming up with new lingo for things that already exist.

These were just all things I think would have been better served if they had been brought up in the discussion topic where scores of people participated to create what we have on the first page.

 

[Darth Vaildra]

[member="Darth Venefica"]

I skilled chef never reveals their special ingredients or submits to a drug test.

 

[Darth Vaildra]

[member="Ludolf Vaas"]

I would like you to take a pause for a moment and realize who you are argueing with. This person who seems to "only have 20 posts" is a codex judge and she is one of the best. Also, and I do not say this to be harsh or belittle even though I very much want to, you are making an ass of yourself.

If you don't like this idea then you have clearly stated your case, but the continue nit picking is becoming infuriating. Don't like where the One Sith are going? In the words of redneck American patiriots in my state, "Well then you can get the hell out!" Build your own Sith faction with this vast knowledge and posts you have.

I read this outline and see things that can be made more clear and concise, but I am not going to be a nazi about it and way my stick around especially when you are argueing with many of the oldest members on this board.

Rant over, I now return you to your regularly scheduled program while I sit and laugh at how this all unfolds.

 

[Matsu Xiangu]

This isn't a pissing contest.

We may play Sith, but OOC we're all entitled to our opinion. Someone who has 10 posts and just came to the site may have a way better idea than me with 1000+ posts. This thread is for a vote. If a voter wants things clarified or more defined, that's a great idea. Vote yes or no for the concept and then we can hammer it out to near perfection.

There's been a lot of bull poodoo flying around lately. Let's not do it to each other in this faction too.

 

[Reverance]

[member="Ludolf Vaas"]

"The appearance of the law must be maintained, especially when it is being broken."

By and large, I support the idea of this illusion of legal notions being carried out in an almost openly illegal way. Elections, yeah, they'll pretty much never be rped. But if they were, it would be like trying to get elected in some corrupted government where competitors are being killed, bought off, or consumed by their competition. Either way, I think it's a nice touch that adds flavor without impacting the texture. Corrupt/Evil/Whathaveyou people are gonna be running things and they likely will not have gotten there on the wings of fairness or justice.

As for Wrath and Eye and Hands and Voices and Shadow? We have a resource page that more or less details it. I wont go into detail except to say that in the purpose of the politics, the eye and wrath would be similar because they are similar in the idea of being directly attached to the Dark Lord. When one says something, the other would say the same thing, with the idea that they are saying what the Dark Lord would say. Military leaders would have power but we haven't defined that. Why? Well because when attempts were made to do so, the concept was constructively criticized as being too complicated. So that's something we pocketed for the future development that could be established IC.

Pretty much everything else you have asked is something that I fully think could be developed IC. What power does the Wrath and Eye have? Well it's still the OS, we can figure that one out without too much head scratching. The Speaker of the Will would likely be part of another council that convenes indirectly with the dark lord. The names of the different branches wasn't being modeled after the US but more just terms used to easily reflect the general idea. And I had assumed that the wills would basically entirely be made of NFU. I'm not being brief because it necessarily makes sense, but I have work and need to run.

We aren't etching these ideas in stone, guys. We are here to have open discourse and what motivates that more than a poll? But we can do that politely and with respect. Everyone has ideas here and they are worth hearing, and disagreeing doesn't make one party smarter or wiser than the other. So keep that in mind: We write Sith characters but that doesn't make us Sith.

And for those making accusations against a particular individual: you are working on false presumptions. I requested aid so if you don't like the idea, question the veracity with me in your scope.

 

[Reverance]

For those voting, the admins are considering redoing the poll so that the vote is public (it was supposed to be originally but I messed up the post). It will help us to highlight issues and rectify things, and we can continue the conversation there.

The new thread, if there is one, will be put up tonight some time. Thanks.

 

[Loxa Visl]

Moff, Will, Archon ..

The names make no difference to me. It is the essense and the frame of what we build here that matters.

 

[Setzi Lunelle]

Bribe me, baby! I'm definitely into the idea

 

[Light Rises]

I can't vote.

I would vote yes. It'd give a new way for me to oppose you guys.

Muahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaa


#NeverForgetDave

 

[Ludolf Vaas]

These were just all things I think would have been better served if they had been brought up in the discussion topic where scores of people participated to create what we have on the first page.

What difference does it make where the discussion takes place - I think these are things that need to be addressed before greenlighting the new idea. We're going to need to figure out exactly how it works at some point. Here is as good a place as any to do that.

These are all questions for the FA. People wanted something simple so this is the bare bones and the OS can build it however they want like they have everything else.

Which is exactly what I'm trying to do.

would like you to take a pause for a moment and realize who you are argueing with. This person who seems to "only have 20 posts" is a codex judge and she is one of the best. Also, and I do not say this to be harsh or belittle even though I very much want to, you are making an ass of yourself.

Oh you're not trying to be harsh and belittle me? Cause you know Sephiroth I really couldn't tell, what with you calling me a fool, an ass, and whatever else. But that's okay cause I guess you were just joking lol all in good fun amirite!

Your pet codex judge has also engaged in some questionable practices over at the Republic, but that's irrelevant. Hell, I'm even willing to look past it. I frankly don't care who she is. What I care about is the idea. I'm trying to bring up legitimate concerns with the idea, and you've done nothing but reflexively crap your pants and sling ad hoc insults at me because I wasn't fapping over the new idea enough to meet your approval. So which one of us is the ass?

If you don't like this idea then you have clearly stated your case, but the continue nit picking is becoming infuriating. Don't like where the One Sith are going? In the words of redneck American patiriots in my state, "Well then you can get the hell out!" Build your own Sith faction with this vast knowledge and posts you have.

"hey guiz its a poll to see what u all think of this idea!!"

"o yeah... if ur opinion is negative U CAN JUST FKING LEAVE LOL"

I don't think you quite understand the purpose of a discussion thread or a poll there, Malfoy.

By and large, I support the idea of this illusion of legal notions being carried out in an almost openly illegal way. Elections, yeah, they'll pretty much never be rped. But if they were, it would be like trying to get elected in some corrupted government where competitors are being killed, bought off, or consumed by their competition. Either way, I think it's a nice touch that adds flavor without impacting the texture. Corrupt/Evil/Whathaveyou people are gonna be running things and they likely will not have gotten there on the wings of fairness or justice.

Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but you're saying that the officials will be elected, then? Because this is contradicting what Vornskr just said above. I also explained how democratic elections are pretty antithetical to the Sith way, and wouldn't really make sense. If the elections are gonna be rigged in the first place, why even have them at all? It's not like the Sith are operating in secret within another form of government, like the Republic or something. This is OS territory and the Sith are completely free to form their own systems of government and appoint their own rulers without the pretense of democracy.

That's not to say subterfuge wouldn't exist within the power struggles between Sith and other officials. But my point is that the Sith are not trying to take over the Republic from within. We already have our own territory and government, so why the need for democratic elections? Especially if they're not going to be RPed. It's an unnecessary stepping stone for the Sith's ultimate purpose, which is only the strong can will themselves into power.

As for Wrath and Eye and Hands and Voices and Shadow? We have a resource page that more or less details it.

Forgive me but I can't for the life of me find the resource page that describes exactly what they do.

I wont go into detail except to say that in the purpose of the politics, the eye and wrath would be similar because they are similar in the idea of being directly attached to the Dark Lord. When one says something, the other would say the same thing, with the idea that they are saying what the Dark Lord would say. Military leaders would have power but we haven't defined that. Why? Well because when attempts were made to do so, the concept was constructively criticized as being too complicated. So that's something we pocketed for the future development that could be established IC. Pretty much everything else you have asked is something that I fully think could be developed IC. What power does the Wrath and Eye have? Well it's still the OS, we can figure that one out without too much head scratching. The Speaker of the Will would likely be part of another council that convenes indirectly with the dark lord.

The reason I bring it up is because of this: we need to figure out how to implement a system that meets the following goals:

1) works with the hierarchy we already have, or if necessary, gets rid of a few positions, and

2) provides a coherent hierarchy for NFU characters.

We have all these high-ranking Sith positions, and I think it's important we discuss how everything is going to fit together. My questions are pretty basic, really. Is the Speaker of the Will simply a custodian of the so-called "senate" of Wills, or does he actually wield considerable power like a Grand Moff? Same with the Wills. Are they like Moffs, and if so, what type of Moffs are we basing them off of? Sith Empire era? Galactic Empire era? Krayt's Empire era? Do they have power that is greater, lesser than, or equal to other NFU military positions like Admiral, General, etc?

In other words, who answers to whom?

The more I think about this question the more I realize that things are going to get a little complicated. Like I said, we need to make this work with what we already have. And right now, I'm not sure what we have because nobody can give me a straight answer on what all these positions are.

Don't you think that these are pretty important questions that should be answered before we vote yes on a game-changing system like this? The reason why I bring this up is simple. I'm not going to sign off on an idea without knowing what the potential consequences of the idea are. Right now, the idea has potential, but it's incredibly vague. The reason why I voted "no" was because I think it's wise and in our best interest to sort this stuff out now rather than later. It's going to need to be sorted sometime.

We aren't etching these ideas in stone, guys. We are here to have open discourse and what motivates that more than a poll? But we can do that politely and with respect. Everyone has ideas here and they are worth hearing, and disagreeing doesn't make one party smarter or wiser than the other. So keep that in mind: We write Sith characters but that doesn't make us Sith.

Disagreeing is part of open discourse.