Let's shed some of this baggage.

[Tefka]

Last week, I had an exchange with a member that ended with "my guys feel marginalized and are looking to leave", to which I responded "I don't negotiate with terrorists."

And just today I've seen one or two posts in the Announcements thread speaking about showing people respect and how it's not being done.

While my statement about not dealing with ultimatums will still ring true, I am sympathetic to this plight and I've heard rumblings that some people, or peoples, or groups of people, feel like they're being debased/targeted/ran off. Let's switch things up and not bottle this one up - either empty your laundry baskets here, or take your problems to each other and speak.

We're a community. I can't fix all your problems for you, I never promised I'd be able to. If you think it's healthy to bounce, bounce - we'll be here if you change your mind, and we'll offer open arms. We need our salty memes, status, and blogs - I'm not asking for that to stop. It's Chaos tradition. But some of this seems a little deeper than that, and if you can't be a bigger man or woman to meet it head on, then you're only contributing to weakening this community. I don't want that, and I don't think you do either, so someone's got to budge.

While I would rather we all speak calmly and rationally, I have no expectation that we will, so my inbox/discord is open if anyone needs to chat privately.

 

[Kahlil Noble]

It's good this finally got aired by a staffer, though it might be a too little too late sort of scenario. The people who've tried to talk have been making an attempt for months, only to be met with passive remarks about how it doesn't matter and to deal with it.

I'm curious where this goes though.

 

[Taozi Fuyuan]

I'm a peacemaker by nature, ignoring when I feel as though I've been personally ignored or disrespected. I've watched the drama and salt and disrespect unfold, and I'm glad this is finally being aired out by staff. When I first joined in January, I'll admit I had rose-tinted glasses on when I looked at the site, and over the months those glasses shattered into little, tiny, bits. This community is full of good people, I've seen them first-hand, but sometimes good people act mean and lash out. It's human nature.

But when people lash out, it's not always followed by "I'm sorry for my outburst, let me calm down and we can talk this over like rational people."

My hope is that this thread can be the place people can do that, so thank you for making this <3

 

[Long Gone]

Removed cause it wasn't relevant to the subject.

 

[WolfMortum]

It's unfortunate that this is a subject needing to be had, but I also understand and have witnessed some of the grief that's been felt by some of the members/writers of our community here. As a writer of the SJO and having taken part in the recent invasions, I have some understanding of context in terms of the neglect/persecution that's been aired to me in private, however for better understanding (my own at the very least), I have to ask...

• What are the specific issues that our writers are feeling concerned/cornered with?
• Is this solely related to the "Map-Game" or is it a larger problem between faction communication and interaction?
• Is this being felt by more than one faction, or is this solely a product of the recent Invasions?

I don't want anyone to feel targeted or threatened at all by this questions, but I'd like to know exactly what the issues are that people are believing to be the problem on Chaos at the moment. If we have a greater understanding of the problems, then perhaps we will have a better chance of addressing these concerns and hopefully alleviating some of the damage that's been done. Regardless of our different factions/affiliations on Chaos, we have members/writers feeling hurt or treated unfairly, so "whether or not there is an issue" at all, is less the question we need to be asking, as opposed to "where to go from here".

Given the opportunity we have here to discuss these things, rather than being told we're going off topic in other threads addressing specific matters outside of the recent drama's going on, we need to make the most of this thread. For those who feel that these are issues that have been over-dramatized by a single group, perhaps it's better to hear out those who are feeling victimized, before we go jumping to conclusions.

I'd personally like to see our community thrive, and I've always been about trying to treat others on equal footing, as to how I'd like to be treated myself.

 

[BE-183]

Hi, I'll come in and add to the cautious posturing as a young upstart.

So, from what I've seen the map game inherently invites salt. Don't get me wrong, we can't really change that without breaking the system. You pit competitive elements against each other with perceived incentives, and loose 'in-game' rules to work with, so some will exploit the wiggle room prioritising end results. They strive for power and status, over the idealised fun and story, and you see stuff like hard numbers abuse, countless NPCs in play against individuals, and meta/powergaming with a degree of ambiguity so you can't decisively act on it.

Thus comes the salt, which I suppose is Chaos tradition. As an individual you really can't change this, it's just the culture, so how can you impact it as a small cog in the machine? Either get used to it, or stay minor and opt out of the map game, either is valid. But some new players join the major factions and experience this divisive behaviour early on.

Just some random thoughts. Personally any 'problems' I had were either hilarious or carried lessons to be wary of. Can't complain so far. I need more experiences to make a more comprehensive judgement, I guess. Obviously where possible I try to communicate, as it tends to make things infinitely easier.

 

[Taozi Fuyuan]

After having some time to put my thoughts together, I'd like to drop this here.

In regards to recent events the past two months, the UCM specifically has felt attacked and disrespected both IC, and OOC. Beginning with what happened for the Umbara false flag attack, the UCM admins made it clear that we, as a faction, wanted no part in this story line. There were IC attempts to prove our innocence so as not to be involved in this storyline further on multiple occasions, and these were either ignored or denied IC. Following this, the H'ratth skirmish was never meant to be UCM sanctioned, and was supposed to be done by a few individuals who wanted low-risk PvP with another faction with no ties to the UCM as a whole. Finally, in regards to the back to back invasions: Our writers are tired. We are one of the smaller Majors on the map, and when we have 2 invasions at once, followed by another, and another, and what I can only assume another one to be announced by the CIS? It's disheartening. For a faction that wants to be left to it's own devices, the stress of high-risk invasions becomes too much, and we've lost multiple writers because of it.

Adding in the fact that almost all attempts to open OOC dialogue have been met with dismissal and disrespect, I don't blame them for wanting to leave. While I am thankful that those I have talked to have given me their ears and listened to me, other members and admins of my faction have not been so lucky.

When writers feel as though they are no longer welcome on a site that is meant to be a community of writers, there is a problem.

Disclaimer: I know I sound like I'm speaking for the entire faction, part of that is because I asked our members for input on this message before sending it. If you made it this far in, I thank you for your time and patience and hope you provide me the same courtesy <3

 

[Long Gone]

To be honest, I feel Invasions are too frequent and it becomes more about the map game than the actual stories behind them. It always has seemed as if Faction is attacking Faction. I mean you can have stories without war but it always seems like the Galaxy is in a state of war than actual - peace?

 

[Argis Volmir]

So I'm gonna throw my two credits into the mix despite them probably not meaning much. So the group doing the False Flag attacks (I was there for the planning of said threads) were just a group of writers getting together who wanted to write Mandos and have fun. The characters wanted war so did the writers OOC, as if no one realized the site was kind of stale with nothing happening except the ORC and Sith Invasions (Still some of my favorite invasions since joining the board). Around the same time the CIS Mandos weren't doing anything either and ICly the characters had a bone to pick with the ME/UCM and the way they were ran so they did the false flags to cause a war.

The UCM attack while it may have been planned to not be sanctioned is still some well known faces within their numbers attacking a group of Jedi at a temple. So whether it was sanctioned or not there's still a toll to be paid. IC actions have IC consequences. Saying that you don't want to take part in the false flag attacks are fine as a faction, but ICly it still happened and Icly people see it as the UCM. You can't control the writers or stop a story they're doing by saying "We don't like it, so stop what you're doing."

I think its moreso that people need to learn to separate OOC from IC. If something happens ICly, roll with it, take it and turn it into a better story even if its not exactly what you want. But don't take such things as personal attacks OOC. Now the constant invasions back to back, there is nothing I can say about that to excuse it, but the UCM were the ones who invaded first. Thats when they got smacked with the counter invasions. If you didn't want your faction invaded I think at that point its kind of a reason to stay off the map as a Major Faction, or why did you try invading in the first place?

OOC on this site could use a lot of work though. Nowhere near enough talking between people. Factions not wanting to attack another because they're friends with others in it OOC. Then people wanting to attack a faction because they have beef OOC. There are however some very abrasive individuals within the community that make it hard for people to bridge these gaps. Especially when they continue to do wrong and are only defended and coddled by people. Or when questions or jokes are asked that people don't like a broom emoji is used in the chat to symbolize moving on instead of confronting the issue. A much more recent event happening in the UCM's discord over the past few days where a member of the site was literally being insulted before he joined, and then not even allowed to write as an Ally for the UCM even though their character has more IC justification than anything to try and fight for their home. All because of the person throwing insults, if this isn't an issue that needs to be addressed I don't know what is.

I could delve into a lot more things that I've noticed but I think this is a good start.

 

[Darth Carnifex]

except the ORC and Sith Invasions (Still some of my favorite invasions since joining the board)

:wub:

[member="Argis Volmir"]

 

[Taozi Fuyuan]

[member="Argis Volmir"] If I may piggy back off a brief part of what you've written? The Umbara story line would have been perfectly fine with us had our writers been involved even just the tiniest bit and known before hand. A "We're going to do this thing, in this amount of time, here you go" essentially. It seemed like a very fun story to write, but when a story line is forced upon your faction, and no one IC seems to want to listen to IC evidence proving innocence? That is where the problem lies.

I'll be leaving the rest of the matter with H'ratth to another UCM member who knows more about the event as whole compared to myself, however, if you don't mind? <3

 

[Ryan]

I say lets start on how Choas Admins actually deal with issues (or not). I had brought to you guy's attention few months back that there was some major OOC issues with the harassment and bullying of an entire faction. Admins were asked to step in but instead we got the "People need to grow up" and " We are not daycare workers". Which honestly, i agreed 100% with, you guys are neither of those and should not be. But the issue got that far and we were sluffed off. I believe you guys need to be a bit more pro active in trying to handle the BS that seems to get sprayed around here.

As much as the map game brings in that Competitive RP style. It also in turn brings in the Salt. Rping should never be about who wins and who loses. ITs about the story but most of us get felled into that horrible mindset and usually the losing side burns out and quits.

OOC Communication has to be a must. Forcing Plots onto individual characters or even an entire faction could be considered Powergaming.

Me personally, I use to love this site. But as the time goes on I find it harder and harder to stick with it. Its just to toxic, too negative. Discords are just shit talking after shit talking. Who hates who and so on. No one is innocent of it. Especially me. I have done my fair share damage. Question is, how do we as a site/group fix that and move forward?

 

[Tefka]

Yeah, lots of solid points of which I’m just recently learning myself. However, as I’ve said before, the inherent problem that causes a lot of other problems is “we wanted to be a major faction left to it’s own devices” and “we didn’t want any part of the story”.

When you opt to go Major - which nobody forced you to do - you accepted you were transitioning from a PvE server to a PvP server. I cannot and will not ask others to stop playing the game so you can play solitaire in a multiplayer environment.

How they go about it, that’s a different story entirely. I’ve been the target of multiple simultaneous invasions on several occasions. I could not ask them to go away, I could only ask them to play fair.

To be Major is to accept you are not alone on the Galactic stage, and nobody in the history of the Galaxy - IC or OOC - has needed a reason for an Invasion.

 

[Tefka]

I don’t think it was me that said that, Ryan, but I do agree. Admins can’t hold hands. We don’t have enough time nor sanity, and unless a rule is being broken, it’s not really our jobs.

That Staff member is very correct, we’re not nannies. We can give advice, we can listen, but we won’t fix every problem.

 

[Ellie Mors]

I've been here for just a month shy of five years, I've had my moments of believing people were out to get me, I've had my moments where I was in staff and could see the other side of the aisle and knew that the mindset I had before was completely unfounded and created by rumors and lack of trust. My first year here the entirety of the website was in the final death throes of "#TyrannyReigns", where many members thought that site staff engineered things on the board to kill big factions and oppress the little guy. There's still a handful of people that believe staff engineered the One Sith and its invasion of Coruscant to try to kill the Galactic Republic.

Today, however, I've seen a paradigm shift from blaming a core group of staff and their friends to a sort of tribalism among factions. Instead of thinking Tefka and Cira are everywhere and control everything, various writers see opposing faction members, like maybe a Sith talking about a Jedi or vice-versa, as the scapegoat to push all of their grief on. That isn't to say their issues are unfounded, they undoubtedly feel stress from invasions and daily major faction stuff, but instead of forming a conspiracy theory about staff and staff factions, it has turned into "everyone is out to get me" or "everyone is out to get them" and other flavor-issues of the week.

Yeah, we have a problem with some people being largely insincere in their motives, and it isn't helped by some people who go out of their way to be as hyper-inflammatory as possible (I wouldn't normally give an example, but I am sure Graf is more than happy to claim this for himself), but it isn't a systemic abuse of a particular faction, or even of various people.

Yeah, you shouldn't have to go through BS with people who don't want to cooperate, but throw up a blog post (we have those) and expose the kind of bad behavior we have experienced (or the bad behavior that we, ourselves, have performed). If I do something so mean and insensitive to you that it changes how you view me and the site as a whole, I would want to hear about it (preferably in private first, but if I or someone else is such a monumental jerk then ->) or have flagged so people know to avoid me. Nobody changes without consequence, and while we all know that IC actions have IC consequences, OOC actions most certainly do as well. If you don't like someone, don't write with them, but if they become such a blight that you and others are being pressed down on with stress and begin to avoid the site, then take the leap and push back on them.

Just try not to turn your issues into ammunition for unintentional harassment. Air your grievances with the relevant parties, try to reach a compromise, and if the issue is such a large one that it impacts your desire to be here, then turn on the neon lights so everyone can avoid that person and they can learn to act better.

Or, y'know, send me a PM/DM and we can talk about it.

 

[Tefka]

“No one is innocent of it”

I disagree.

There’s actually a large majority of you that don’t partake in toxicity and don’t feel like this place is “slippin” due to OOC drama, because they just don’t care for it.

My question is why are you okay with admitting the damage you’ve done but focusing on other people? Can we focus on what damage you did and why?

And the same for others, too. What did you do to cause ‘damage’, be toxic? Why? Was it funny, did it make you feel better? Isn’t that just exhausting? It sounds extremely exhausting.

And if you don’t enjoy it, why are you either 1) still putting up with it or 2) still doing it?

I love jokes as much as the next guy and I’m a huge fan of getting fired up for pvp, but this stuff sounds way too serious for a fictional SWRP website

 

[Ryan]

[member="Tefka"] No it was not you. Just saying that maybe Admins should be proactive when a member brings up that the BS bucket has overflowed because trusting fellow members to be proactive about it....... yeah.

Why have a partaken in such you ask? No it did not feel good but it felt right at the time to knock a person down a few pegs who should not have been high on his/her horse. Some times just heat of the moment. And you are right that its exhausting. It is very exhausting and time wasting. I get triggered easily by assholes and bullies and i go after them.

And where are these magical people that are not tainted by the toxicity? Seriously, i would like to know and do they actually have a faction?

 

[Argis Volmir]

[member="Ryan"] Awwww yes you only go after the bullies or assholes? Hmmm, I remember joining the discord for the ME and some quite rude things you said to me. Simply because I asked a few questions and brought up some points you didn't like hearing. When I was cordial about it all. It was really quite sad as I hadn't thrown a single insult or even said anything down to y'all when you started attacking.

So perhaps its not you trying to remove people from their high horse, or go after bullies? Instead going after people you disagree with? I feel like we should look deeper into this, of course I bear you no ill will.

 

[Ryan]

[member="Argis Volmir"] i remember the conversation. I remember that i was not the only one that noticed you were being a troll in our discord. So please, dont play the victim card.

 

[WolfMortum]

In regards to recent events the past two months, the UCM specifically has felt attacked and disrespected both IC, and OOC.

Giving or receiving disrespect in an out-of-character context is a problem, without a doubt. In-Character is however another story entirely, as far as my opinion goes. I realize other writers may disagree with me with what I'm going to be saying in this thread, and that's their right, but hopefully I can help clear some of the air from the perspective both myself, and the Order of the Silver Jedi.

First of all, what's written in an In-Character context does not always represent the OOC opinions or bias of the writer. While it's true that some writers may use their personal bias to fuel their threads/character actions and opinions, In-Character and Out-Of-Character context should not be considered one and the same.

For me personally, characters such as Veiere for example are often opposed with others like [member="Darth Prazutis"], yet he and I have great OOC interaction and there's no bias towards one another in any sense.

I have participated in every Invasion against the UCM, with the exception of the Imperials. Veiere's motivations are fueled by enforcing Galactic Law and consequences for believed war crimes. This in no way means that I have any ill-intentions or bias against the UCM and I am confident that I can also speak for the SJO in saying that the Faction's direction in these Invasion's are story-focused. These Invasions were the product of a summit between the SJO, the CiS, the ORC and the CiC. I have also explained my views of the Invasions here in the Forcing that Narrative OOC Thread.

Beginning with what happened for the Umbara false flag attack, the UCM admins made it clear that we, as a faction, wanted no part in this story line. There were IC attempts to prove our innocence so as not to be involved in this storyline further on multiple occasions, and these were either ignored or denied IC. Following this, the H'ratth skirmish was never meant to be UCM sanctioned, and was supposed to be done by a few individuals who wanted low-risk PvP with another faction with no ties to the UCM as a whole

Umbara wasn't the fault of the UCM, nor have we ever claimed that it was, in an Out-Of-Character Context. From an In-Character perspective however, it was never concluded whether or not this is true. We could not go around the IC events and meta-game the knowledge out of respect to the writers responsible for this false-flag/setup against the UCM. I'm aware that meta-gaming isn't technically against the rules of the site, but it's extremely in bad taste and frowned upon. We didn't wish to meta-game and disrespect them, just as we would give the same consideration and respect towards any other faction or group in their position.

A member of the UCM came forward during the incident and tried to convince the Silver Jedi that they were not at fault, but in the heat of the conflict, the risks and the consequences meant that the Silver Jedi couldn't take them solely on their word when casualties were so high, civilians being the target, not the Jedi themselves. It's important to note that there were characters on our side of the story such as [member="Darlyn Excron"] who was wearing his armor depicting the colors of House Cadera (if I'm not mistaken?), and he too was doing his best to work towards the interests of the UCM while also participating on our side of the thread.

As you know, these things are being discussed in our private thread "Tenacity for Taanab" between our characters, and a personal OOC struggle I'm having is the fact that there was no actual conclusive RP done that resulted in an answer for or against the UCM with regards to Umbara, which means I can't give a definitive answer In-Character there despite knowing for a fact in an Out-of-Character perspective.

Adding in the fact that almost all attempts to open OOC dialogue have been met with dismissal and disrespect, I don't blame them for wanting to leave.

If this has been the cause of writers from the Order of the Silver Jedi, can you please message me either on the board or via Discord so I can look into these cases. I can't speak for other factions or writers, but as an Admin for the SJO, it's my responsibility to handle issues like these.

Something that has also been brought up lately, are the previous diplomatic thread/s between the SJO and the UCM (Back then called the ME). I wasn't in the faction at the time but when the last thread was taking place, the present Faction Owner up and left the Faction, forcing a vote for a new FO and then transitioning into their new leadership of the Faction. I've asked about this recently as I've also wanted answers after one of our former members sympathetic to the UCM asked me about it. As an FA (Faction Administrator), I couldn't give them a straight answer at the time.

Phew...That's a lot to cover. Sorry for the wall of text but I'm doing my best to speak on the behalf of the Silvers. If there is a way to clear the air in terms of OOC conflict between our writers in this community, I'm always going to try and look for a way to achieve this. In-Character however is another story, IC Actions and IC Consequences. Drama and tension in-character isn't always a bad thing, it can build great stories. But at the end of the day, please remember that IC does not represent the OOC feelings or perspectives of Writers, as individuals and members of Chaos.

I am always approachable whether on site or on discord, and though time-zones are a pain in the ass, I will do my best to get back to you or any other writer looking to contact me.