How do you view/use Philosophy in Star Wars?

[Darth Carnifex]

Something something; right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must, History of the Peloponnesian War Book V: The Melian Dialogue

 

[Nerd Wizard]

Something something; right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must, History of the Peloponnesian War Book V: The Melian Dialogue

Nietzsche would be proud, I'm sure.

 

[Nerd Wizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Esf59wk1yFQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im_AUhO5Vro

The concept of Nietzsche's Overman, in the form of an author, for anyone who wants to research the matter a bit more thoroughly. Stover's writings are rife with Nietzsche's philosophy; if you carefully delve into the matter, you can pick it up.

WARNING: Nietzsche's ideas are dark, dangerous and can lead to extreme depression, at best - they pave the way into NIHILISM - the belief that nothing matters and that morality does not exist. Read Nietzsche AT YOUR OWN RISK, guys and gals. Stover's works were my first major foray into any form of philosophy, and it was a tough, dangerous baptism of fire - DO NOT take this warning lightly.

 

[Cotan Sar'andor]

Nietzsche's writings only pave the way into nihilism for people that ignore how often Nietzsche railed against nihilism, I feel. Part of the goal of the ubermensch idea was overcoming empty nihilism and crafting your own meaning and morality in the world.

Still, it's not quite as bad as how his sister and her husband took all his writings in later years, selectively edited them, and published them in support of their anti-semitic ideas, leading Nietzsche to be associated so heavily with Nazism. I don't agree with a lot of his writings (even though I find them interesting and he's one of my favourite philosophers to read), but I think that the guy got dealt a really bad lot when it came to what he tried to get across and the popular idea of him.

 

[Nerd Wizard]

Nietzsche's writings only pave the way into nihilism for people that ignore how often Nietzsche railed against nihilism, I feel. Part of the goal of the ubermensch idea was overcoming empty nihilism and crafting your own meaning and morality in the world.

You can't rebel against Western morality without a SEVERE threat of nihilism slipping in. Even then, Nietzsche's concept of "continual, ever-shifting self-creation" is, in essence, a form of nihilism - you hold onto nothing forever and just keep shifting from trend to trend - as Kierkegaard would call it "glorified aeseticism", and nothing more. I agree, Cosima Wagner did sell out his work and shift it towards the masses, the "herd" he so despised - I'm not condoning that BS in any way, shape or form. But, in the end, Nietsche failed to create any lasting new values - he just reduces humanity back to warlord-like, vainglorious despots and the tribes/"slaves" that follow them.

 

[Cotan Sar'andor]

I wouldn't go quite so far—he had a very dim view of that sort of outlook as well.

I think, when discussing Nietzsche, it's important to keep in mind his concept of empty nihilism, which is what most people think of when you say nihilism: The idea that there is no meaning and no morality at all, so you can just do what you want, or you can fall into despair, or anything like that. Which was (and is) fairly prevalent in western civilization. And it's something he viewed as a problem, and something his philosophy wanted to address—he didn't have too terribly much issue with the moral systems in place at the time, either, by and large.

That's why Nietzsche had ideas about 'overcoming' nihilism. You have to accept that you are constructing and following your system of morality as you go along, and accept that it is influenced by society, just as it influences society. You have to accept that there is no inherent source of morality or meaning for life coming from anywhere, and it's all about what you make of it. You take all of that in, and you keep going anyways. You persevere, you go on, you follow what your idea of a good person is at all times and make your own meaning, rather than falling into hedonism or despair or anything like that.

Too many people mischaracterize Nietzsche as the first sort of nihilist, the popular type (the straw nihilist, if you will), when he really wasn't that at all. Nor was he really trying to create new values or anything like that. Philsophy isn't inherently about trying to create new values or anything like that, anyhow—Nietzsche's was just a different way of looking at the world, counter to some of the problems he saw in society at the time, and there's value in it that can apply even today, even if you agree/disagree with most of his ideas (heck, I most equate the way I try to go about life with classic stoicism, after all, not Nietzsche's stuff). And I don't think there's anything in it that would lead somebody into heavy depression or nihilism unless they fail to understand what he's trying to put across or can't extricate themselves enough from the other ideas that they're more accustomed to.

Or, as Nietzsche might have said, "Du bist nicht ein Übermensch." In likely improper German because I haven't been practicing lately.

 

[Nerd Wizard]

I wouldn't go quite so far—he had a very dim view of that sort of outlook as well.

That's why Nietzsche had ideas about 'overcoming' nihilism. You have to accept that you are constructing and following your system of morality as you go along, and accept that it is influenced by society, just as it influences society. You have to accept that there is no inherent source of morality or meaning for life coming from anywhere, and it's all about what you make of it. You take all of that in, and you keep going anyways. You persevere, you go on, you follow what your idea of a good person is at all times and make your own meaning, rather than falling into hedonism or despair or anything like that.

...there's value in it that can apply even today, even if you agree/disagree with most of his ideas (heck, I most equate the way I try to go about life with classic stoicism, after all, not Nietzsche's stuff). And I don't think there's anything in it that would lead somebody into heavy depression or nihilism unless they fail to understand what he's trying to put across or can't extricate themselves enough from the other ideas that they're more accustomed to.

Psah... I disagree. Every tradition we have in our current age, and every tradition and concept of what constitutes a moral or an immoral action never really changes too diversely, and it all can fit easily into SK's two main categories of "Either/Or". Also, society influences our outlooks and opinions? Friend, I never even trusted my own family growing up... I'm the perfect example of what happens when well-meaning, though very busy parents leave their kid alone with naught but sci-fi and fantasy books, TV and video games for companionship when school was over. I never fit in with my peers and have been largely alienated from the rest of the world ever since preschool, at the tender age of four. Even my peers mostly rejected me, and I only had one friend for two years, proper, back in second grade.

While I used to have a great degree of rebellious anger in me, I must confess that the writings of the ancients, when I discovered that they (and the entire concept of history) were the fuel behind my favorite fictional worlds, served to help my immensely. I'm closer to my loved ones know, even if we don't talk very "deeply" about topics that are important to us very much (literally everyone just ignores each other except at formal occasions), I am calmer now and I have Socrates, Kierkegaard, Schopenhauer and a few Stoic teachings, myself, to thank for that. But, yeah, as a result of my abnormal childhood, I am somewhat cold (though not hostile) to the surrounding world, so in short, I disagree that society can help us form any lasting opinions at all. They pounded ideas into my head that I thought were boring and unreliable, so I merely pondered their teachings, regurgitated them when necessary and then compared them to the ideas found in history, rejected the ones living people sought to impose on me, be they peer or elder, and chose to focus on the unchanging moral constants that can be found in every culture, the most timeless standards of morality and immorality. At sixteen, I had unwittingly fallen into the beginning stages of Kierkegaard's ethical level, before I was introduced officially to him later in college, and fully solidified this stage into various facets of my life as of a few months ago, if you must know. Stover's works fit into all of this, circa 2005 when I read two of his books, but that's a different tale of how I was almost led me into nihilism, for another day, mayhaps. In short, older philosophies, rather then seeking to create anything new in the realm of values, helped me get away from that yawning, hungry maw. I think new values cannot be created, because we humans are limited... Really, over the millennia the same constant standards in morality haven't ever gone away.

Sorry for being a bit long-winded, but I thought I'd summarize my whole experience with philosophy, history and fiction, all at once.

 

[Cotan Sar'andor]

We'll just have to agree to disagree, then. =P

Although I find a funny parallel between this discussion and that of the people who want to bring back the closed-off ranks, tier systems in the factory, etc.

they are not the Übermenschen

 

[Nerd Wizard]

Although I find a funny parallel between this discussion and that of the people who want to bring back the closed-off ranks, tier systems in the factory, etc.

they are not the Übermenschen

I don't know much about any sorts of ranks and hierarchies in our little forum, as I've only been here a few days. Rest assured that I'd just ignore the whole thing, and focus solely on my own writing, RPing and characterization, even if it ever came back - to hell with cliques. It's not a contest, in the end. Show up, tell a morality tale with monks and aliens in it, and get away from the world's cares every so often, while learning and pretending in the process. Not that tough to do. No blind destruction through anarchy and whimsy, no power-seeking through vanity.

 

[Cotan Sar'andor]

I just wanted to make a joke, really.

 

[Nerd Wizard]

I just wanted to make a joke, really.

No worries. No offense taken... Just wanted to be as clear as possible on how I view such clique-oriented corruption, even if it was just a joke.