Star Wars Roleplay: Chaos

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

 Hex Gains for factions that successfully defend from an Invasion?

Do you like the idea?


  • Total voters
    74
Tit for tat.

Plus, imagine the potential storylines of the defenders win. They won the invasion and take a 'staging planet' for their victory. Imagine the attackers 'reeling' as their staging planet is taken.
I think there is great potential for some amazing stories.

It also evens the playing field as far as both factions having something to gain and lose.

I vote for mutual annihilation and reward.
 
When was the last time they invaded someone? Not recently, or in the last year, because that doesn't currently fit their faction narrative.
Sometimes it does feel difficult to justify an invasion from the "good guys".

Playing devil's advocate, id honestly say it doesn't really matter with the current rate we have going. I'm sure if we were to be chain invaded, my tune would change to that. But I am more for an equal playing field with equal rewards. I'd like to see the map shift and change more, more stakes added to these impactful stories.

I see what Darth Solipsis Darth Solipsis is saying. Maybe the answer would be to nab neutral hexes if you are a defending faction and win? But both factions could work together to come up with a story where the invading faction takes enemy territory.

Can't hurt to try something new.
 

Kitter Bitters

Creator of the Bitterverse
I said this in another thread but I will say it here too. I worry about this unintentionally discouraging invasions.

But I also think we need something. I too would love to feel like the map changes more than it does. I’d also like to get more time to be in invasions. I’ve only ever done a few.

I say sure give it a try.
 

Matt the Radar Tech

ᴛɪɴᴋᴇʀɪɴɢ ᴀᴡᴀʏ ᴏɴ ʀᴀᴅᴀʀs
I like the intent behind this, because I absolutely agree that successfully defending an invasion should matter beyond simply retaining what you already had. In hindsight this also helps alleviate the fear of factions being chain-invaded to burnout to some degree. Where I hesitate is making automatic defender territorial gain the standard consequence.

Narratively, it doesn't make sense for a defender to suddenly end up new lands and peoples for holding down the fort. I think that risks creating some unhealthy incentives for the map game. If every failed invasion can immediately cost them an equal amount of additional territory, I could see factions becoming significantly more reluctant to attack at all. Instead of encouraging the map game, it may encourage people to tuck tail and turtle. Considering how much OOC investment, judging, and general contention can already surround invasions, I am not sure giving the defenders the same territorial benefit of the attacking factions to make those situations healthier.

I think the better answer would be giving a successful defense meaningful consequences for the attacker without immediately handing the defender territory. Attackers should get penalized. For example, losing an offensive invasion could create a temporary vulnerability, neutralize hexes in between - creating a buffer zone, or altogether prevent that faction from immediately launching another invasion for a preset time based on the gravity of the invasion, give the defender some form of priority or advantage in launching a counteroffensive, or create a limited window where the defender can pursue the retreating faction into connected territory.

That creates something I think is much more useful narratively:

Attack → failed campaign → retreat/disorganization → opportunity for counterattack.

Now the defense actually creates another story rather than simply resolving the map result through an automatic hex exchange then sit decisively. It would also make offensive decisions matter. If you throw your faction into repeated wars and lose, eventually there should be consequences for overextension. At the same time, the defending faction would still have to do something to capitalize on its victory rather than receiving territory automatically. To me, that would help the map game more in the long term.

So TLDR: I am very much in favor of making defense more rewarding, I would just rather see the reward help In-Character story instead of just benefit Out-Of-Character actions.

I get what you're saying, sure.

But also:

The attacker gets to initiate an invasion and potentially gain territory, but the defender has to win that invasion, then undertake another offensive to receive an equivalent reward?

That doesn't address the imbalance. It just puts more work on the defending faction.

And if the possibility of losing territory makes factions reconsider launching invasions, I'd argue that's the entire point. Aggression should carry genuine risk, not simply the possibility of failing to gain something.

"The defending faction would still have to do something."

They did. They fought and won a defensive invasion. They've already put in the work. Give them the reward.

On a broader level, this could also help ease some of the OOC tensions surrounding invasions. If both sides have a genuine opportunity to benefit from the effort, the system becomes fairer for everyone involved.

Right now, it's effectively a coin toss where only one side stands to win anything.

And just to head off the obvious counterargument: retaining what you already possess is not the same as receiving a reward for winning. Saying the defender gets to "keep their territory" isn't a reward. That's simply maintaining what was already in place.
 
How many recent invasions have we had where the defending faction actually wins?

No salt here. I don’t keep up with it all so legit ask.

Invasions take about a month to complete so they only happen so often but I'm guessing about 40/60 if you looked throughout chaos history excluding the pre-determined era.

I will say that's not exactly a bad thing to ask about. I think dedending factions would feel more amped if they knew their efforts would be equally rewarded. I am NOT saying defenders haven't been doing their best. I'm saying it might feel better in the long run even if they lose.
 
I think everyone is raising good points all around. Could this stifle invasions? Perhaps. Does it equal the risk reward in attack vs defense? Yes.

I think at the end of the day this is the key thing. Up until this proposal there has been no risk in declaring an invasion.

There also has never been reward for busting your ass in a invasion defense and winning. This brings invasion cost/reward parity. Is it perfect? No, will it work? Remains to be seen but I say it’s worth a shot.

We can always reverse it later if the community decides it’s detrimental as applied.
 
Putting out some further thoughts.

I really agree that invasions should have equivalent stakes for each faction. Having just a flat "these many hexes are up for grabs by the winner" is the cleanest way to achieve that, too. I think if the defenders have an alternative outcome from the attackers, then you're tipping the scales of the "reward," and it's no longer balanced.

Per In-Character concerns... If factions want to flavor in-character outcomes, they can just go ahead and do that anyway - either cooperatively or for the aftermath of their own factions. If factions want stalemates or other novel outcomes that don't involve hexes, they can use skirmishes and campaigns, or flavor a junction into a campaign (win-win on hexes but a win/lose/stalemate/wildcard narrative). I think Chaos offers an adequate roster of tools for factions to play out conflicts.

But if the desire is "I want map game consequences, I want a hex," then that Major Faction is buying into the stakes, and all players should have an opportunity to gain and lose equally. I think that is actually just the "fairest" way this can happen.

So, I'd prefer to see this as a general rule rather than a mandate. Because as it stands, in mandate form it presents less as "no you" and more as "yes, let's make the stakes fair," and I think that, frankly, feels a little odd when it could just be the default.

I probably paraphrased some people there haha
 
I understand the idea behind it being equal and more tit-for-tat, though I do think this should be something locked behind a mandate. It creates more risk, it creates more room to question whether you can afford the loss if you do lose an invasion you started - of which, I think are good things. However, I do think it will just result in being something that prevents people from launching them altogether. Some people might want that though. That's fine, I just sway with a different breeze. Cool idea for a mandate though.
 
If launching an invasion willy-nilly gives a faction pause because there are now equal consequences, that reeks of storytelling insecurity to me.

If a community is not confident in the story they have to tell, compared to the people they want to write against, then that is a prime opportunity for them to work together and improve their skills.

I don't see this as a reason to lock equivalent risk behind a mandate.

Moreover, this rule would throw a wrench in one of the more toxic applications of invasions too. We know that invasions have, on more than one occasion, been used as a tool to deliberately burn out the target faction on an out of character level. If there is now territory risk for failing? The more toxic folk might take a second before showing their backside again.

Either way, it's a net positive for chaos, and it's a net negative for the folks who really shouldn't be here. Win-win.
 
This is probably a lot more aggressive than I would write it. It seems like you're teetering on the edge of spicy so let me see if I can re-write/clarify in a way that isn't.

1.) If equal consequences gives a faction reason to pause perhaps their narrative or faction identity isn't ready yet? I wouldn't say a skill issue, that's not fair, but perhaps the idea just needs more time to cook?

2.) Locking equal consequences behind a mandate doesn't make it equal. Just situationally available... Which doesn't fix the imbalance and disregard for the work of the defender.

3.) It could keep "spam or chain invasions" from happening again because it requires consideration and a willingness to think about risk versus reward. This may lower OOC salt because defenders aren't just sitting ducks.

4.) I disagree with this last bit...I think even with it being an imperfect solution its a net positive for every Major Faction. Everyone will get invaded at some point so it doesn't just benefit one group or another.

Is this what I'm meant to understand? I'm disregarding some of it because my main focus is the general health of the community. Leaving things as they are is possible depending on how these discussions go but I don't think it's a good idea in the long term. Everyone has a place and they're welcome to their opinions, yeah?
 
This is probably a lot more aggressive than I would write it. It seems like you're teetering on the edge of spicy so let me see if I can re-write/clarify in a way that isn't.

1.) If equal consequences gives a faction reason to pause perhaps their narrative or faction identity isn't ready yet? I wouldn't say a skill issue, that's not fair, but perhaps the idea just needs more time to cook?

2.) Locking equal consequences behind a mandate doesn't make it equal. Just situationally available... Which doesn't fix the imbalance and disregard for the work of the defender.

3.) It could keep "spam or chain invasions" from happening again because it requires consideration and a willingness to think about risk versus reward. This may lower OOC salt because defenders aren't just sitting ducks.

4.) I disagree with this last bit...I think even with it being an imperfect solution its a net positive for every Major Faction. Everyone will get invaded at some point so it doesn't just benefit one group or another.

Is this what I'm meant to understand? I'm disregarding some of it because my main focus is the general health of the community. Leaving things as they are is possible depending on how these discussions go but I don't think it's a good idea in the long term. Everyone has a place and they're welcome to their opinions, yeah?

1000%, spot on.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom